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How are these Great Beings explained?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Now you have recognised the results of mans rejection of Gods Laws and advice. :D:p We create our own punsihment in our choices and actions.

Regards Tony

Oh Please!
One of the Bahais that I knew was Captain of an Ultra Large Crude Carrier, one of the largest Crude Carriers in the World, bringing Crude Oil from the Mid East to the Western World!
He also sat on an LSA.
His career was all about his choice and his actions, and he boasted that his success in becoming a Crude Oil Carrier Captain was being a Bahai.

Please do not suggest that our World would be all sparkling clean if it had become a Bahai World 150 years ago. I cannot imgaine what such a World would be like now, given the clear and present evidence come to light here of just how double-think bahai can be. :shrug:
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
You have remembered some of what Abdu'l-Baha spoke of consultation. Here it is in context:

The members thereof must take counsel together in such wise that no occasion for ill-feeling or discord may arise. This can be attained when every member expresseth with absolute freedom his own opinion and setteth forth his argument. Should anyone oppose, he must on no account feel hurt for not until matters are fully discussed can the right way be revealed. The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions. If after discussion, a decision be carried unanimously well and good; but if, the Lord forbid, differences of opinion should arise, a majority of voices must prevail.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Page 87

So who should the members of an assembly consult to avoid ill-feeling and discord?

They must then proceed with the utmost devotion, courtesy, dignity, care and moderation to express their views.

Selected Readings on Consultation

Yeah, but you cherry picked your phrases there.
Look, see what was also writtn....

This can be attained when every member expresseth with absolute freedom his own opinion and setteth forth his argument. Should anyone oppose, he must on no account feel hurt for not until matters are fully discussed can the right way be revealed.

OK, so some members may have posted nasty posts, but there are some members (not here) who would take their opinion right to the line of moderation. I mean, like...... Wow!
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
No Spiritual is the Creative Force.

"..No matter how the material world may progress, no matter how splendidly it may adorn itself, it can never be anything but a lifeless body unless the soul is within, for it is the soul that animates the body; the body alone has no real significance. Deprived of the blessings of the Holy Spirit the material body would be inert." Abdu'l-Baha : Paris Talks

Regards Tony

Do you see my point now?

Yes, you have deeds etc. Most religions do. Some put more emphasis on spiritual, others physical, and others, well probably most outside modern religions, they are viewed the same.

The more recent the religion, the less physical they want or have in their religion. To me both physical (rituals etc) and spiritual are the same. In hinduism, the statues are not just statues but are one and the same as the spiritual belief.

I cant remeber my point with Humanity, but in this how would you agree that we are saying the same thing but from different perspectives?

(rays of the sun)
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Why would one bahai see it seprately one over another and you see it interrelated?

Also, could you practice without the physical? Why or shy not?

To both you and @loverofhumanity

This is how Baha’u’llah views deeds. Regardless of practice or motive the deed must be accepted by God. That is the foremost requirement.

Baha’u’llah says our deeds performed in God’s Name are not acceptable unless they are accepted by God.

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation..

Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed”


The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh

So a person can perform every good deed but according to Baha’u’llah if the person does not accept God’s Representatives that person has gone astray no matter what good deeds they may perform.

In another passage

Were anyone to wash the feet of all mankind, and were he to worship God in the forests, valleys, and mountains, upon high hills and lofty peaks, to leave no rock or tree, no clod of earth, but was a witness to his worship—yet, should the fragrance of My good pleasure not be inhaled from him, his works would never be acceptable unto God”

Even Hindus and India are mentioned by Baha’u’llah.

How many a man hath secluded himself in the climes of India, denied himself the things that God hath decreed as lawful, imposed upon himself austerities and mortifications, and hath not been remembered by God, the Revealer of Verses. Make not your deeds as snares wherewith to entrap the object of your aspiration, and deprive not yourselves of this Ultimate Objective for which have ever yearned all such as have drawn nigh unto God. Say:
The very life of all deeds is My good pleasure, and all things depend upon Mine acceptance”



Excerpt From
The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
So a person can perform every good deed but according to Baha’u’llah if the person does not accept God’s Representatives that person has gone astray no matter what good deeds they may perform.

I read it in full.

Id say accepting god (say by ritual) is the good physical deed and if one doesnt have a good deed, how can they accept god and vis versa. Makes sense?

For example, when I bow and put my head to the floor the act itself is respect not just words and whats in my heart (in my case mind first). Its a combination of what you do and what you believe.

So, if you bowed and put your head to the floor how would that be secondary to belief in god?

I dont understand how one is above the other. Never got "higher" being and something "beyond", the unknown, the force, etc.

Comparing the unknown with an adjective in contrast with the known is foreign. I can read all the bahaullah books, bible, quran, etc but reading this doesnt make the understanding click.

I need to talk it through. Can you separate a Muslim from his prayer by saying he can worship god without acting in that worship via ritual?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Oh, put the weapons and guns to one side!
We've brought the world to the point of being an open sewer!
Nothing to do with weapons.
And the vast majority of the muck and dirt has been produced in the last 175 years or so.........
Wow! That's close to 1844!

Well I guess then there’s a lot of cleaning up to do. Got your mop and broom ready?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I will be very blunt that I have a mole.....
that has me wondering if I might be a certain person reincarnated????

There is no way that I could rule out the Dr. Ian Stevenson research:

Dr. Ian Stevenson's Reincarnation Research

I will now send you a personal message with some information that I suspect......
could be useful in saving some lives in the Middle East over the coming years and decades.

Never thought about moles having anything to do with reincarnation but it might just be a coincidence no?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Hindus generally do not go about killing people. Of course, there are criminals and murders in anger or passion. Killing someone must have some valid dharmic reason, for example, an enemy of the country. Butchering for food is OK for some but not OK for others (some 30% of Hindus are vegetarian). What to talk of killing people even killing an ant is an abomination in Hinduism.

That’s the beauty of Hinduism that violence even with words is considered unacceptable which to me is a very great teaching for me to learn from and embrace in my own life.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
If the current Baha'i interpretation of Daniel 8:13-14 is correct then Daniel's prophecy is without question the most astonishingly detailed fulfillment of prophecy - at least since the appearance of Christ almost 2000 years earlier. If it is not that important, why refer to it at all? Why do any Baha'is need to refer to it?

Because it is important. However according to God's wisdom, the use of Daniel 8:13-14 was not the best prophecy when writing to the rulers of the world.

As Baha'u'llah said:
“Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.”

And in the context of this discussion, it was you (not I) who brought Daniel into the conversation as you attempted to deflect the topic to the bizarre interpretations of JWs and it was Tony (not I) who brought 1844 into it by trying to make the preposterous claim that Thomas Paine (of all people) had 'foreseen' the Baha'i dispensation (courtesy of the "Spirit of the Age" or whatever) and written about its effects in 1797 (almost 50 years before the appearance of the the Bab).

The JWs got a few things right. They had an intuition about the times they were living in. They were simply looking in the wrong place. It was a little like the Jews expecting their Messiah to be a warrior king like King David.

Before that, I was simply demonstrating the rather obvious fact that almost nothing in the Baha'i "Revelation" (the rise of democracy, the ascendancy of science...etc.) was new in the 19th century. If it wasn't new it wasn't a 'revelation' at all - let alone a divine one - was it?

It was a revelation as all the principles chosen are in keeping with the spirit of the age. It does not matter that democracy existed in Athens over two thousand years ago. It does matter that it is to be pivotal to collective decision making everywhere throughout earth.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I'm never sure about the for things or against things. Personally, I like to stay neutral, neither for nor against, when it comes to religions other than my own, unless they're excessively intruding into my space. There is an old saying about villagers and a lion. "It is your duty to leave him alone, but if he enters the village, it is your duty to remove him, kill if necessary." So that would explain the gist of it.

Yes, I know you wouldn't destrop property. It's against the law in most countries.

Even then it's hard to determine. Short term pain for long term gain comes to mind. We always have to look at the bigger picture, and the ego or desire can easily delude oneself into thinking something is good. Children and candy come to mind. Evangelising faiths certainly believe that conversion to their belief system is a good thing. I would beg to differ.

Yes you make some very valid points including religion. I think true religion can only bring goodness but we do see today murder and crimes of the worst sort committed by religious fanatics and brainwashing. Add sexual abuse of children to that and I think that this is not true religion. I think the nasty side of religion if we can call it that is not true religion at all but misrepresentation of it.

It’s the same with Baha’is. We are told the foundation of our religion to be unity so no matter how much we pray or go to meetings if we argue and dispute then we are not Baha’is. It doesn’t matter what we call ourselves the bottom line is our behaviour. So there are true sincere believers in all Faiths and also those in name only.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, but you cherry picked your phrases there.
Look, see what was also writtn....

This can be attained when every member expresseth with absolute freedom his own opinion and setteth forth his argument. Should anyone oppose, he must on no account feel hurt for not until matters are fully discussed can the right way be revealed.

OK, so some members may have posted nasty posts, but there are some members (not here) who would take their opinion right to the line of moderation. I mean, like...... Wow!

That is right. Baha'is should avoid giving offence and taking offence. They also belief the best beloved of all things in the sight of God is justice.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 3-4
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I read it in full.

Id say accepting god (say by ritual) is the good physical deed and if one doesnt have a good deed, how can they accept god and vis versa. Makes sense?

For example, when I bow and put my head to the floor the act itself is respect not just words and whats in my heart (in my case mind first). Its a combination of what you do and what you believe.

So, if you bowed and put your head to the floor how would that be secondary to belief in god?

I dont understand how one is above the other. Never got "higher" being and something "beyond", the unknown, the force, etc.

Comparing the unknown with an adjective in contrast with the known is foreign. I can read all the bahaullah books, bible, quran, etc but reading this doesnt make the understanding click.

I need to talk it through. Can you separate a Muslim from his prayer by saying he can worship god without acting in that worship via ritual?

Bowing ones head to the floor or showing reverence in any way to God is an act of devotion and love and humility. And different people have different ways of showing their devotion.

I love the way the Buddhists and Hindus greet people with their hands joined. In Thailand and Burma and India it was a custom I loved and being western I liked it much more than just our handshake because it was different.

But I see what you mean it’s expressing the worship via an act and different people and cultures and religions have different ways of expressing their worship.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Bowing ones head to the floor or showing reverence in any way to God is an act of devotion and love and humility. And different people have different ways of showing their devotion.

I love the way the Buddhists and Hindus greet people with their hands joined. In Thailand and Burma and India it was a custom I loved and being western I liked it much more than just our handshake because it was different.

But I see what you mean it’s expressing the worship via an act and different people and cultures and religions have different ways of expressing their worship.

You see why I am confused?

Back fo my original question, though. How are these acts of worship secondary to belief in god? (physical under spiritual)
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
[
You see why I am confused?

Back fo my original question, though. How are these acts of worship secondary to belief in god? (physical under spiritual)

I don’t know. Maybe if God wants to be worshipped one way and we don’t do it that way He maybe sees that as disrespect towards His wishes?

Is the act of worship done for pleasing God or ourselves?

Wouldn’t it be nicer and show more reverence to God if we did what pleased Him most?

Belief in God to me means God’s Will comes first before ours. And if He deems He wants to be worshipped His way then is it not for us to be humble and submissive before Him?

And God has said that He wants humanity to turn to His Educators for our own sakes and if that is His Wish then shouldn’t we abide by it?

So to answer or try to answer your question whether our deeds are accepted by God or not He has stated depends upon us complying with His stipulated Wishes sent through His Teachers.

The physical act is dependent firstly upon whether the deed is recorded in God’s Books as acceptable to Him and whether the motive for that deed is true love of God. We can best show we love and respect God by being humble before the Teachers He sends for our guidance.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yes you make some very valid points including religion. I think true religion can only bring goodness but we do see today murder and crimes of the worst sort committed by religious fanatics and brainwashing. Add sexual abuse of children to that and I think that this is not true religion. I think the nasty side of religion if we can call it that is not true religion at all but misrepresentation of it.

It’s the same with Baha’is. We are told the foundation of our religion to be unity so no matter how much we pray or go to meetings if we argue and dispute then we are not Baha’is. It doesn’t matter what we call ourselves the bottom line is our behaviour. So there are true sincere believers in all Faiths and also those in name only.

I agree. Any individual who is hurting others isn't following the true intent of their religion. Some religions, because of unclear statements or whatever, just make it easier for the immature souls to get away with adharmic stuff.

Eliminating argument can eliminate discussion. The first person says something, and the rest agree. That's often not productive because that first idea may have been a foolish one. There are better approaches to meetings.

My Dad sat on a 5 member group overseeing the local graveyard in the community where I grew up. One rather simplistic neighbour, in his niceness, would second every single motion, no matter who made it or how silly it was. So in that drive to agree, those are the kinds of things that can happen. Sometimes the best ideas are unheard, or the smartest people give in for the benefit of group harmony. I think the Baha'i would be well advised, to allow more disagreement but agree to keep it civil. From what I've read, the way it is now, if you disagree, you just get booted out. It's a passive aggressive way of keeping people in line, often resulting in no great ideas ever coming forward.

Really, if you can't disagree, what's the point? I see that attitude on this thread. By merely disagreeing, the non-Baha'i in the discussion are accused of being negative, or seeking discord, when all we're doing is offering up an alternative POV. So that idea runs deep in the Baha'i psyche.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
How many a man hath secluded himself in the climes of India, denied himself the things that God hath decreed as lawful, imposed upon himself austerities and mortifications, and hath not been remembered by God, the Revealer of Verses. Make not your deeds as snares wherewith to entrap the object of your aspiration, and deprive not yourselves of this Ultimate Objective for which have ever yearned all such as have drawn nigh unto God. Say:
The very life of all deeds is My good pleasure, and all things depend upon Mine acceptance”

Little wonder Hindus have trouble accepting anything like this. First he criticizes our practices without acknowledging or asking about why we do such things. So he's speaking from ignorance. Austerities are for training the willpower, besides other things. Is he suggesting we should all be weak?

Then he says God has forgotten us. What kind of God is that? Our God is a God of unconditional love.

Then he talks about books (Revealer of Verses) when Hinduism isnt a book religion at all, but an experiential one.

And finally, he makes the broad claim that what we do has to be approved by him. What outrageous conceit and criticism! And this insulting tone is supposed to unify?

I'm glad you presented this passage. It's further demonstration of how incredibly different we are.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Never thought about moles having anything to do with reincarnation but it might just be a coincidence no?


They are often marks from previous lifetimes. I have a friend who was murdered in a war last lifetime. The death blow was to the head. As a baby this lifetime she had a black spot of hair amongst lighter hair on the same spot. It was confirmation of what we already knew.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Then why was he apparently unable to explain Daniel 8:13-14?

And how do you know he was referring to Daniel? He could have said exactly the same in relation to Isaiah 8:16, Isaiah 29:11 or Revelation 10:4 - for example - so how do your Baha'u'llah quotes prove that he knew about Daniel's prophecy? Does he actually quote Daniel anywhere?

.

You are correct. The same Prophecy about Sealing the Book of God until the End, and Unsealing it at the time of Manifestation is described in Revelation, Isaiah and Daniel. The statement of Bahaullah clearly is a parallel to these Prophecies which all of them are description of the same event. Now, knowing that the Scriptures of the Baha'i Revelation explains in details the meaning of symbolic terms of previous Scriptures, this Prophecy is fulfilled.


.
Sincere apologies to innocent bystanders and
Dear Siti, no need for apologies. Feel free to ask. We may not know all the answers as you may ask something I didn't think of before, but hopefully we learn something together.
yes we are going round in circles but the point at issue here is that neither the Bab, nor Baha'u'llah nor even their faithful interpreter were able to explain - in hundreds of tablets, in some of which they did refer specifically to many other Biblical prophecies and some of which - contrary to @adrian009 's earlier argument - were specifically addressed to Christians - Christian monarchs no less - were either willing or able to give the correct interpretation of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:13-14, whilst the Protestant Christian William Miller, the Baha'i scholar Gulpaygani and the Baha'i 'covenant breaker' Ibrahim Kheiralla were all explicitly able to do so, in writing, before, during and shortly after the life times of the Great Beings whose 'greatness' partly rests on their fulfillment of the same prophecy.

In the context of the OP question - "How are these Great Beings explained?" - my argument in the current sub-topic diversion is that their perceived "Greatness" (in terms of fulfilling prohetic expectations) is better explained by a combination of religious fervour, messianic expectations and scholarly interpretation of prophecy than by the direct divine revelation that is claimed as the hallmark of the Baha'i "Manifestations".

The first thing we need to know is that We cannot conclude that just because Baha'u'llah or the Bab did not explain the details of 2300 days or 1290 days or 1260 days, They did not know it. That is if we are not jumping to conclusions more than what logically can be established.

Second thing to say is that we cannot conclude that just because apparently Abul Fazl, khairullah or Miller had talked about this Prophecy they knew it before anyone else. Because here would be omitting the possibility that the Bab and Bahaullah knew the details of it, but They choose not to include it in Their Books, and that is assuming we have read all their Writings or we are aware of all Their conversations.
Of course a valid question is, if They knew it why They did not write about it?
Well, in Bahai view, the answer is very simple. Bahaullah have left these things for Abdulbaha to explain. It was not urgent that He must have included in His own Writing. Simple as that.
Fourth thing is that we have already seen that Abulfazl, who was a Muslim Scholar had already explained this to the Jews of Persia. We also know Bahaullah had sent a letter to Abulfazl when he was in Persia asking him to teach the Faith. It should be noted that Bahaullah had before prophesied in the tablet of the Temple that soon God will raise a people to help Him with His cause. So did it happen, Abulfazl was one of those people who had been raised by God as Tablets of Bahaullah had reached him and caused him to rise. From the Bahai point of view, when a new Revelation comes, God raises a number of people, inspires them to help with His cause. The point is, even if we say the Prophecy of Daniel was important to be told to some people such as the Jews of Persia, God did this through other people such as Abulfazl. It should be also noted Abulfazl was not a Jewish scholar. He was a Muslim scholar, and a detail history of the books he had studied at Islamic school reveals that he had not studied the bible, for obvious reason that the Muslims in those days considered Islam to be the most complete Religion while other religions were incomplete or corrupted. The point is, it was all because of Revelation of Bahaullah that such Muslims discovered about prophecies in Bible, otherwise, it has been very unlikely a Muslim scholar believes the prophecies of Bible to be true, as they believed these Books were corrupted.
Sixth point is, Islamic Texts has many Traditions about the Qaim and Return of Christ which even many of the average Muslims are aware of them. For instance there are well known traditions which state when Mahdi appears His mission last 7 years, and Christ lives for 40 years when He returns. Both of these traditions obviously are compatible with the duration of the mission of the Bab and Bahaullah, yet they are never mentioned in Bahai scriptures as proofs. The Point is, the mission of the Bab or Bahaullah was not to mention every single Tradition of the past. People in due time discover them.

Finally there are many evidence in the writings of Bahaullah He knew about very details of Jewish Traditions that even I am sure many of the Jews are unaware. It is not reasonable to think He did not knew about some thing so obvious as the 1260 days prophecy in Bible. The Bab had appeared in year 1260 AH, so even an average person can easily make a connection between the two, let alone Bahaullah who obviously was able to refer to so many details of bible from His mind without having books to use. An obvious reason that He did not want to refer in His writing to every Prophecy just to prove Himself.
 
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