No as Spiritual always grows limbs, but those limbs need mind to operate. In the end, when the body dies sporitual limbs still need to be connected to mind.
Let David clarify
Regards Tony
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
How are these Great Beings explained?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
No as Spiritual always grows limbs, but those limbs need mind to operate. In the end, when the body dies sporitual limbs still need to be connected to mind.
Let David clarify
Regards Tony
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
The Visions of the End that Daniel had, ended with such words that, the Book of God is to remain sealed until the Time of the End. For instance at the end of Daniel 12 He said:
9...“Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. "
Now, here is the evidence that Baha'u'llah alluded to these visions and declared they are fulfilled:
"Say: This is the sealed and mystic Scroll, the repository of God’s irrevocable Decree, bearing the words which the Finger of Holiness hath traced, that lay wrapt within the veil of impenetrable mystery, and hath now been sent down as a token of the grace of Him Who is the Almighty, the Ancient of Days. In it have We decreed the destinies of all the dwellers of the earth and the denizens of heaven, and written down the knowledge of all things from first to last. Nothing whatsoever can escape or frustrate Him, whether created in the past or to be created in the future, could ye but perceive it."
"Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!"
Here Bahaullah, in His Most Holy Book stating that the Words of God, the mystical Wine which had been sealed by the Will of Almighty till the End, is now through the new Revelation is unsealed, and the meaning of the mysterious words of God is revealed.
The term sealed and unsealed are also used by Bahaullah in many other Tablets, which generally means, when the word of God is to remain hidden until an appointed time. Here is an example:
"For the present, however, since the season is not ripe, the tongue of My utterance hath been stilled and the wine of exposition sealed up until such time as God, through the power of His might, shall please to unseal it. He, verily, is the Almighty, the Most Powerful."
These statements proves that Baha'u'llah not only was familiar with the Daniels Prophecy, but the important purpose of His mission is not just to reveal codes of laws, but unseal the word of God which was sealed.
Last edited:
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Im not good with analogies (Im so told). I dont think this answers my question. Relates, yes. Answers, no.
Physical is nothing without spiritual, you say.
Is it the same as spiritual is nothing without the physical?
Who is david? I asked loverofhumanity not a david.
siti
Well-Known Member
Then why did Baha'u'llah feel the need to claim fulfillment of the prophecies of Isaiah, Zechariah, Moses and Jesus? (but not Daniel?)
siti
Well-Known Member
Oh no! Not Daniel 12 - that's an even bigger problem for Baha'i than Daniel 8 isn't it? Anyway, the quotes you gave from Baha'u'llah could be about any prophetic passage in the entire Bible (or anywhere else for that matter) - what is it that makes you think he was specifically referring to Daniel 12?
Last edited:
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
No.
I already explained. Daniel's Prophecy states the Word or Book of God is rolled up and sealed up till the End. Bahaullah says, the Scroll that was Sealed, now is sent down and unsealed. Meaning the Time of the End that Daniel spoke of had passed and no longer the Book is sealed.
siti
Well-Known Member
Then why was he apparently unable to explain Daniel 8:13-14?
And how do you know he was referring to Daniel? He could have said exactly the same in relation to Isaiah 8:16, Isaiah 29:11 or Revelation 10:4 - for example - so how do your Baha'u'llah quotes prove that he knew about Daniel's prophecy? Does he actually quote Daniel anywhere?
Sincere apologies to innocent bystanders and yes we are going round in circles but the point at issue here is that neither the Bab, nor Baha'u'llah nor even their faithful interpreter were able to explain - in hundreds of tablets, in some of which they did refer specifically to many other Biblical prophecies and some of which - contrary to @adrian009 's earlier argument - were specifically addressed to Christians - Christian monarchs no less - were either willing or able to give the correct interpretation of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:13-14, whilst the Protestant Christian William Miller, the Baha'i scholar Gulpaygani and the Baha'i 'covenant breaker' Ibrahim Kheiralla were all explicitly able to do so, in writing, before, during and shortly after the life times of the Great Beings whose 'greatness' partly rests on their fulfillment of the same prophecy.
In the context of the OP question - "How are these Great Beings explained?" - my argument in the current sub-topic diversion is that their perceived "Greatness" (in terms of fulfilling prohetic expectations) is better explained by a combination of religious fervour, messianic expectations and scholarly interpretation of prophecy than by the direct divine revelation that is claimed as the hallmark of the Baha'i "Manifestations".
Last edited:
The Spiritual is true life. Material life is only an emanation of the spiritual attributes.
You are asking Loverofhumanity, it was too long to type.
Regards Tony
The phrase covenant breaker did not refer to just anyone who disagreed. These were people that attempted to create a schism in the Baha'i Faith that would have led to its destruction. The archetypal covenant breaker was Mirza Yahya who attempted on several occasions to murder Baha'u'llah. That was extreme but the behaviour of those that tried to establish for themselves the leadership of the Baha'i Faith was driven by ego and a willingness at almost all costs to achieve their ends. So, yes, this type of behaviour was seen as a spiritual disease and I have no problem with Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, or the Universal House of Justice advising the Baha'is to entirely avoid the company of such people.
You repeatedly raise this. It is a misunderstanding that for my part I have apologised for. Don't you think it is time to let it go?
So because the leaders of our Faith called particular destructive individuals covenant breakers (spiritually diseased) that makes it OK for those who are not Bahai to call all the Baha'is spiritually diseased and incurable?
You are here by your own admission as a type of sociology experiment, to better understand how these Baha'is could believe what do they do? What kind of psychopathology could drive such nonsense? Well, Baha'is like everyone else are human beings. If you cut us we will bleed. Words can heal or harm like they do for anyone else.
No Aup isn't the first to call the Baha'is a cult and certainly won't be the last.
As with mine.
Last edited:
As already said, I and not many of any people here would have referenced all Baha'u'llah has Written.
Daniel is under the umbrella of Abraham and Moses, all part of the Old Testament. It is like Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are under and are part of Christs Revelation, to which is the New Testament.
Abdul'baha explained Daniel is Inclusive as all the Prophets are.
Regards Tony
siti
Well-Known Member
Argument from ignorance? We don't know so it must be there (somewhere)?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Ima forget my question after awhileI know. You said physical (memory
) is nothing without the spiritual.Okay.
Can we Also say spiritual is nothing without the physical?
Yes? No? Why or why not?
You are asking Loverofhumanity, it was too long to type.
Hmm. I usually say lover, well, sparingly that is
Strong argument from knowledge, that I can in no way know what Baha'u'llah knew, and know very little of what He did know.
I was not going to say much more, but now I will add.
100 proofs with 99 ok and one a sticky point in ones individuals mind.
So do we ignore the 99 in preference to our limited understanding on one point?.
Regards Tony
You make it sound like Daniel is the most important book in the entire bible and Daniel was the most important person. He wasn't. The Gospels are the most important books and Jesus the Messiah. It makes more sense for the Manifestation of God for this day to be referring to the Gospels and Jesus when proclaiming His Mission, rather than jumping into Daniel's prophecies about dates. Isaiah was mentioned to, understandably given he was considered the greatest of the OT prophets.
siti
Well-Known Member
If the current Baha'i interpretation of Daniel 8:13-14 is correct then Daniel's prophecy is without question the most astonishingly detailed fulfillment of prophecy - at least since the appearance of Christ almost 2000 years earlier. If it is not that important, why refer to it at all? Why do any Baha'is need to refer to it? And in the context of this discussion, it was you (not I) who brought Daniel into the conversation as you attempted to deflect the topic to the bizarre interpretations of JWs and it was Tony (not I) who brought 1844 into it by trying to make the preposterous claim that Thomas Paine (of all people) had 'foreseen' the Baha'i dispensation (courtesy of the "Spirit of the Age" or whatever) and written about its effects in 1797 (almost 50 years before the appearance of the the Bab).
Before that, I was simply demonstrating the rather obvious fact that almost nothing in the Baha'i "Revelation" (the rise of democracy, the ascendancy of science...etc.) was new in the 19th century. If it wasn't new it wasn't a 'revelation' at all - let alone a divine one - was it?
siti
Well-Known Member
What 99? So far you guys haven't demonstrated a single logical articulation let alone a proof.
So far you have collectively presented only unsubstantiated claims. Anyway, just for clarity, please just give me one proof that Baha'u'llah was a Divine Manifestation - just one.
It is most astonishing for sure.
It is offered, as it was seen as a great proof to many and that is was common thought at that time and had full support on many people. That inspiration for the return of Christ was in many hearts and was the result of much hope expectation and discovery.
We offer that it had merit. After that you are free to see it as you wish.
Stay happy.
Regards Tony
I know. You said physical (memory
Okay.
Can we Also say spiritual is nothing without the physical?
Yes? No? Why or why not?
No Spiritual is the Creative Force.
"..No matter how the material world may progress, no matter how splendidly it may adorn itself, it can never be anything but a lifeless body unless the soul is within, for it is the soul that animates the body; the body alone has no real significance. Deprived of the blessings of the Holy Spirit the material body would be inert." Abdu'l-Baha : Paris Talks
Regards Tony
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
IMHO, belief in God and his sending sons, messengers, manifesttions, mahdis and books is the greatest ignorance, the root cause of all problems. That is why I do not consider the Vedas or BhagawadGita as the word of any God.
There is nothing such as soul also. The human body is bones, flesh and blood, a chemical machine, There comes time when its parts fail and finally it goes into circulation again at one time or the other (bury it, expose it, embalm it, freeze it or burn it, whatever). Let us be practical.
Last edited: