Snake Handling and Signs

Intro
This comes up as a result of another thread. I am not Jewish and apologize if this mischaracterizes the understanding of Jews or modern ones. It is Christianity I am discussing primarily. I also apologize to fellow Christians for my pointed dislike of the way things are in churches currently. Miracle services are horrendous abuses of Christians that should stop immediately. I will attempt to explain why and to attempt to explain that as Christians continue to pursue understanding of the roots of their religion that they will become increasingly skeptical and embrace Liberal forms of Christianity, and this is the future of Christianity should they continue to do so.

Roots of Judaism to be aware of
(NIV Deut 13:1-3)
"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul."

An entire culture called Judaism develops around the words of Moses, over centuries. They had centuries to grow into a unique culture that refused to accept miracles as signs that someone was telling the truth. To do otherwise was a sin called 'Divination'. Jews (and also Christians by extension) are not to be swayed by miracles, and so the best way for the gospel writers to let readers know that they are not speaking literally is to say they should listen because of a miracle. It is a literary device through common understanding of the evil of divination. Embrace Deuteronomy as if it were a guide through a creepy cave. Deuteronomy is foundation, not cake. It is milk, not meat; and it says not to be swayed by miracles and this becomes the Jewish way of life. It also applies to the gospels or should be. Because Jesus is Jewish, at that moment where someone in the gospels is asked to believe something because of a miracle, consider it as if the writer has used the term 'like' or 'as'; because believing on the basis of a miracle is not allowed by Moses and by extension not allowed by Jesus as I intend to represent. It is a command infusing skepticism into religious life. (correct me)

Notice in the above passage that Deut 13:1-3 specifically says "gods you have not known." Obviously Moses believes (from this and other passages) it is up to each individual to already know God or they could not test the prophet's words. Hence, miracles are only for teaching and illustrating. One plain meaning is God cannot be revealed through miraculous proofs, and this is part of the culture surrounding Moses words. It is innate knowledge, not something the gospel writers are ignorant of, yet so many Christians today are ignorant of it I think. It is part of Jesus whole life, his synagogues, his un-Roman culture which everyone living in his day is aware of. It is part of their rejection of the gods of all of their conquerors. The gospels count upon their readers to understand miracles are nothing, but they don't expect their words to become scripture to those who refuse to study the law and who don't know basic things like 'Miracles aren't proofs'. So please consider this: "Miracles are nothing." You will be far better off than thinking "Miracles matter." The fact is, they don't matter. They are unnecessary for Christianity, for any of it. Throw them away except for the lessons.

Jesus
Do you remember the story in which Jesus turns water to wine and the writer says "So his disciples put their faith in him?" First of all it is unlawful for the disciples should put their faith in him over a miracle. It is also unlikely for them to go against the Torah that they love. That said, the gospel is not attempting to deceive through describing miracles but is simply teaching something. The miracle is a literary device if we are following Moses instruction.

Snake Handling
Perhaps healing ministry in churches seems innocent to many; but it is extremely bad, warped religion and ranges in how damaging it is. To begin with it is used to shore up belief or is claimed to. It is put forward as Jesus idea which is preposterous! That is a sign that everything is upside down. For an extreme example of the consequences: these days we have snake handling ministers, and this ought not to be. It is only possible because of the extreme ignorance of the ministry and of lay people (sorry if this seems dismissive but I am not saying that they are bad people just ignorant and kept ignorant and this is part of my argument). It should not surprise that snake handling originates with the hillbillies in the USA. Great people, very hard working, but they do not embrace Moses principle of skepticism or Jesus principle of skepticism, either. The gospel writer assumes that we know the Torah, so he assumes that we will understand miracles are meant to teach us something but that signs do not convert, do not convince, do not establish. (I intend to mention Jesus own teachings about this, further down.) How many times have I heard a minister imply that miracles can convince the unbelieving? Many! We ought not to be handling snakes to shore up our beliefs, or looking for comets, or trying to make wine from water.

Signs
...But a minister might argue (ignorantly) "What about the resurrection of the dead? Surely you aren't going to deny that is a sign?" What if I do? I'm only following Jesus own example, and I hope you will do the same and be healed! In his parable a rich man dies and goes to a place of suffering, but a poor man goes to a place of comfort. The rich man wishes to warn his own family but is not permitted, and Jesus ends with this point: If they do not believe Moses and the Prophets, they will not even if someone rises from the dead!

The Skeptical Future of Christianity
(NIV Matthew 12:39)
"He answered, 'A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.' "

Jesus not only embraces Jewish skepticism, but it is fair to assume the culture that surrounds him does also from the early apostle to his brother, James, to all of his followers. The more the miracles, the more skeptical we should consider them to be and we ought to be. Ignoring modern pop culture, let us examine the ancient paths. What is the sign of the prophet Jonah? Why, it is the sign you will get if you go following signs, dying of anger only to learn at the very end that you have ignored the compassion, the forgiveness required that is the whole idea all along. Prepare to be swallowed.

Christians today are considered to be 'Conservative' or 'Liberal'. I view them as 'Dying' and 'Renewing'. Expect the future of Christianity to be more informed, more skeptical, more genuine, more biblical.







Aftermath
Torah is reality for Jesus and the gospel writers, and as you move away from that reality disintegrates. A person with no 'Root' is a person with no knowledge of the Law and culture, and so that person will not understand. If you then pay them to preach they will completely miss the message of the gospels and waste your time. They will teach crazy things like that Satan drops out of heaven or that Jesus pre-exists the world. They will hold 'Miracle' services. They will hold exorcisms. In fact that is what they do, today. There are even snake handling services. It is because ignorant people have been paid to teach.

The emphasis upon miracles in the gospels is indication that the writer is making a simile or allusion. Miracles are like those paintings of angels with wings -- symbolic illustrations that mean something. Miracles cannot prove Jesus is a prophet, because that is not how things work. It is ignorance that causes readers to think miracles are descriptions of physical events that create faith in onlookers.

Brickjectivity said:

The gospels count upon their readers to understand miracles are nothing, but they don't expect their words to become scripture to those who refuse to study the law and who don't know basic things like 'Miracles aren't proofs'. So please consider this: "Miracles are nothing." You will be far better off than thinking "Miracles matter." The fact is, they don't matter. They are unnecessary for Christianity, for any of it. Throw them away except for the lessons.

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Although you have many good points, there is IMV points of disagreements.

Miracles are still necessary (though not as proof). Miracles do matter for the sick, the hopeless and the needy.

For the woman who was buring her only son that Jesus resurected, it was important.
For the leper, who no longer could be with family and general public, it was important
For the man who had a devil, it was important.

KenS said:

Although you have many good points, there is IMV points of disagreements.

Miracles are still necessary (though not as proof). Miracles do matter for the sick, the hopeless and the needy.

For the woman who was buring her only son that Jesus resurected, it was important.
For the leper, who no longer could be with family and general public, it was important
For the man who had a devil, it was important.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your feedback. The most difficult thing for people to accept is the death of a loved one, because very often we would rather cease to exist ourselves. It is in our nature to wish for such terrible things rather than to lose others, and so this issue about skepticism of miracles ought not be rubbed in the faces of those who have lost loved ones. At the same time I think miracle fever is bad; and it is everywhere. Its being used to sap people of their potential sometimes. I am also hearing reports of terrible cult like behavior from around the globe. This is the ruin of Christians and of Christianity.

Brickjectivity said:

I appreciate your feedback. The most difficult thing for people to accept is the death of a loved one, because very often we would rather cease to exist ourselves. It is in our nature to wish for such terrible things rather than to lose others, and so this issue about skepticism of miracles ought not be rubbed in the faces of those who have lost loved ones. At the same time I think miracle fever is bad; and it is everywhere. Its being used to sap people of their potential sometimes. I am also hearing reports of terrible cult like behavior from around the globe. This is the ruin of Christians and of Christianity.

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Of course we death of a loved one is hard. And, of course, our comfort is that we will see them again.

Definitely we should not rub anything in the faces of others.

We certainly should not live "on miracles". We should live of faith. Man should live on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God

Religous cults have been around for milleniums. For every truth there is a counterfeit that looks like truth.

We shouldn't dispise miracles. We should encourage people in faith. Miracles are still important. Faith will take people beyond their capacity and in that it is beyond one's capacity it would still be classified as a miracle. Certainly Jesus did command us to lay hands on the sick so that miracles can happen

With Jesus as the Head of His body (The Church) -- Christianity will never be ruined. IMO.

KenS said:

Of course we death of a loved one is hard. And, of course, our comfort is that we will see them again.

Definitely we should not rub anything in the faces of others.

We certainly should not live "on miracles". We should live of faith. Man should live on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God

Religous cults have been around for milleniums. For every truth there is a counterfeit that looks like truth.

We shouldn't dispise miracles. We should encourage people in faith. Miracles are still important. Faith will take people beyond their capacity and in that it is beyond one's capacity it would still be classified as a miracle. Certainly Jesus did command us to lay hands on the sick so that miracles can happen

With Jesus as the Head of His body (The Church) -- Christianity will never be ruined. IMO.

Click to expand...

The laying of hands is an orthodox belief. Jesus could merely call the name of the Holy Spirit to perform the miracles of those inflicted. He never touched Lazarus. The woman touched his "garment" and was healed. While Peter "spoke" to men, the Holy Spirit filled them.

John 8 has Jesus saying that the "flesh profits nothing". Orthodoxy teaches that their "priests" had the spiritual touch passed through secession. I don't believe that at all, as it profits flesh. At the end of John, it says that Christ "breathed" the Holy Spirit upon them (that understood his glory).

John 7 says:
(This spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed in him, should receive: for the holy Ghost was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

If the Holy Ghost was NOT yet given, the Jews never had it and the beginning of Matthew and Luke where Johns father was filled with the Holy Ghost, seems to indicate a corruption of understanding. The chrism makes you a christ (small c). Jesus was first to receive it, and through him, man received it.

Paul taught of the spirit he received, and says NO man taught him.

Orthodoxy is of the acts of flesh. Where, what and when it is to do as it's told. And preists (done away with with the renting of the veil, have once again become puppet masters through perceived power and wealth.

Just where my many years of praying and study has revealed.

KenS said:

Although you have many good points, there is IMV points of disagreements.

Miracles are still necessary (though not as proof). Miracles do matter for the sick, the hopeless and the needy.

For the woman who was buring her only son that Jesus resurected, it was important.
For the leper, who no longer could be with family and general public, it was important
For the man who had a devil, it was important.

Click to expand...

I believe I can speculate a little. The healings attracted crowds as miracles often do and that made Jesus a rabble rouser in the eyes of authorites and helped secure His day upon the cross.

Phantasman said:

The laying of hands is an orthodox belief. Jesus could merely call the name of the Holy Spirit to perform the miracles of those inflicted. He never touched Lazarus. The woman touched his "garment" and was healed. While Peter "spoke" to men, the Holy Spirit filled them.

John 8 has Jesus saying that the "flesh profits nothing". Orthodoxy teaches that their "priests" had the spiritual touch passed through secession. I don't believe that at all, as it profits flesh. At the end of John, it says that Christ "breathed" the Holy Spirit upon them (that understood his glory).

John 7 says:
(This spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed in him, should receive: for the holy Ghost was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

If the Holy Ghost was NOT yet given, the Jews never had it and the beginning of Matthew and Luke where Johns father was filled with the Holy Ghost, seems to indicate a corruption of understanding. The chrism makes you a christ (small c). Jesus was first to receive it, and through him, man received it.

Paul taught of the spirit he received, and says NO man taught him.

Orthodoxy is of the acts of flesh. Where, what and when it is to do as it's told. And preists (done away with with the renting of the veil, have once again become puppet masters through perceived power and wealth.

Just where my many years of praying and study has revealed.

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I believe my pastor feels the same way but your Biblical selections manage to ignore the verses that say t lay hands on the sick:

Ac 28:8 And it was so, that the father of Publius lay sick of fever and dysentery: unto whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laying his hands on him healed him.

Lu 4:40 And when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.

Muffled said:

I believe my pastor feels the same way but your Biblical selections manage to ignore the verses that say t lay hands on the sick:

Ac 28:8 And it was so, that the father of Publius lay sick of fever and dysentery: unto whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laying his hands on him healed him.

Lu 4:40 And when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.

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The Bible has been "scribed after scribed" from the first words written. Even after the printing press versions from the 1300s, words have been added, taken away and changed in favor of the a certain ideology. This is why the "non canon" books that were hidden for 1600 years are so important. (Nag Hammadi).

Christ tells us not to trust the scribes. Matthew 23:13-15.

Gospel of Thomas agree's:
39 Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.

Only the Spirit reveals the true gospel of Christ. And only men tell you "where" it is and what it means.

The path is personally sought without restrictions of men.

Phantasman said:

The laying of hands is an orthodox belief. Jesus could merely call the name of the Holy Spirit to perform the miracles of those inflicted. He never touched Lazarus. The woman touched his "garment" and was healed. While Peter "spoke" to men, the Holy Spirit filled them.

John 8 has Jesus saying that the "flesh profits nothing". Orthodoxy teaches that their "priests" had the spiritual touch passed through secession. I don't believe that at all, as it profits flesh. At the end of John, it says that Christ "breathed" the Holy Spirit upon them (that understood his glory).

John 7 says:
(This spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed in him, should receive: for the holy Ghost was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

If the Holy Ghost was NOT yet given, the Jews never had it and the beginning of Matthew and Luke where Johns father was filled with the Holy Ghost, seems to indicate a corruption of understanding. The chrism makes you a christ (small c). Jesus was first to receive it, and through him, man received it.

Paul taught of the spirit he received, and says NO man taught him.

Orthodoxy is of the acts of flesh. Where, what and when it is to do as it's told. And preists (done away with with the renting of the veil, have once again become puppet masters through perceived power and wealth.

Just where my many years of praying and study has revealed.

Click to expand...

OK... I don't quite agree with all of your statements but much o it is good. Certainly Jesus "also" laid hands on people as did the disciples. I dont think we can just ignore that.

KenS said:

OK... I don't quite agree with all of your statements but much o it is good. Certainly Jesus "also" laid hands on people as did the disciples. I dont think we can just ignore that.

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Sometimes a swift kick in the butt can make people see the light. It's all what the mind see's. I never view the Holy Spirit like a gas pump filling the tank by pulling a trigger. It is recognized and accepted as the mother to the children of God, who is the Father.

Gospel of Thomas:

(101)
(1) "Whoever does not hate his [father] and his mother as I do will not be able to be a [disciple] of mine.
(2) And whoever does [not] love [his father] and his mother as I do will not be able to be a [disciple] of mine.
(3) For my mother […], but my true [mother] gave me life."

For some reason, the missing part is damaged. But the spirit fills it in, if you understand by seeking.

Mark:
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Thomas:
(99)
(1) The disciples said to him: "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside."
(2) He said to them: "Those here, who do the will of my Father, they are my brothers and my mother.
(3) They are the ones who will enter the kingdom of my Father."

Matthew:
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, is my brother, and sister, and mother.

How on earth can anyone read this mystery and come to the conclusion that "Mary" is the "mother of God"? Jesus is speaking of the Holy Spirit that was "within him" and attracted "all those about him".

People fight to remain blinded by the catholic ideology when the truth is right before their eyes. Mary was flesh. The flesh profits nothing. Hands are flesh. The flesh profits nothing.

See the mystery by spiritual understanding. Not what the orthodox catholics created.

Where does snake handling come from?

Phantasman said:

The Bible has been "scribed after scribed" from the first words written. Even after the printing press versions from the 1300s, words have been added, taken away and changed in favor of the a certain ideology. This is why the "non canon" books that were hidden for 1600 years are so important. (Nag Hammadi).

Christ tells us not to trust the scribes. Matthew 23:13-15.

Gospel of Thomas agree's:
39 Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.

Only the Spirit reveals the true gospel of Christ. And only men tell you "where" it is and what it means.

The path is personally sought without restrictions of men.

Click to expand...

I don't believe extra-Biblical texts are trustworthy. I also believe the Bible is unchanged.

Faithofchristian said:

Where does snake handling come from?

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I once met a hard shell Baptist from West Viginia. He said they were not allowed to watch TV or movies and dancing wasn't allowed. I asked him what they did for fun. He said they has an annual rattlesnake hunt. I believe it is more cultrural than Biblical.

Muffled said:

I don't believe extra-Biblical texts are trustworthy. I also believe the Bible is unchanged.

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As do most all orthodox catholic believers. The Bible is the only words of God, and has never changed. If you seek, you will find that that isn't true. The catholics (and then the Catholic church) has added and removed books, added and removed words, and changed many idea's before the Protestants even began their ideology. The Codex's can only be traced back to 400AD. And even Origen said that the "gospels" had been tainted by the time he read them in 230AD.

Without spiritual gnosis, man is getting pulled further and further away from the Gospel of Christ. It is why I spent most of my life studying the church of the first 3 centuries. I see the chasm, because I have viewed it from both sides.

Great thread Brick! There are so many good points in this post, its hard to isolate just a few.....

Brickjectivity said:

Intro
This comes up as a result of another thread. I am not Jewish and apologize if this mischaracterizes the understanding of Jews or modern ones. It is Christianity I am discussing primarily. I also apologize to fellow Christians for my pointed dislike of the way things are in churches currently. Miracle services are horrendous abuses of Christians that should stop immediately. I will attempt to explain why and to attempt to explain that as Christians continue to pursue understanding of the roots of their religion that they will become increasingly skeptical and embrace Liberal forms of Christianity, and this is the future of Christianity should they continue to do so.

Click to expand...

Your "pointed dislike of the way things are in churches currently" is completely justified because of what Jesus and his apostles foretold would take place, especially in this "time of the end", the features of which were prophesied by Daniel some 500 years before Jesus was even born. We can see them very clearly if we know what to look for. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43; Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

Jesus and the apostles foretold the appearance of a counterfeit form of Christianity, sown by the devil. Satan is a mimic, so everything God does, he tries to imitate so as to create confusion, especially in the minds of believers. He already has the unbelievers eating out of his hand.
In order to identify a counterfeit, all you have to do is know what the real one looks like and compare them.

Judaism was corrupted by the Jewish leaders introducing their own version of the law and seeing themselves as VIP's in the Jewish system. (Matthew 23:4-12) When Jesus came and exposed their errors, they did not take the correction well. As history attests, the Jewish leaders often led the whole nation astray and when God sent his prophets to correct them, instead of heeding God's warning, they killed the prophet, to silence him, just as they did with Jesus. (Matthew 23:37-39)

Christianity followed the same path as Judaism, when men headed up large groups of followers, they led the disciples away after themselves and their own ideas, not after the teachings of Christ. (Acts 20:20-9-30; 1 Timothy 4:1-3)

Brickjectivity said:

Jesus
Do you remember the story in which Jesus turns water to wine and the writer says "So his disciples put their faith in him?" First of all it is unlawful for the disciples should put their faith in him over a miracle. It is also unlikely for them to go against the Torah that they love. That said, the gospel is not attempting to deceive through describing miracles but is simply teaching something. The miracle is a literary device if we are following Moses instruction.

Click to expand...

God's people were always warned about the activity of wicked spirits under the command of the adversary.
Any form of spiritism was to be avoided under penalty of death. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Any practice involving the supernatural use of uncanny power was said to be "detestable" to God. Only miracles performed by authorized prophets of God were acceptable because the use of God's holy spirit was at work in them. Moses and Elijah both performed miracles in the OT.

The miracles of Jesus and his apostles were also an evidence of the operation of holy spirit. But each one of them was only a demonstration of what Jesus would do as the future King of God's Kingdom....the healing of the sick, the feeding of the multitudes, the raising of the dead....all will be performed on a grand scale in the new world to come (2 Peter 3:13)....when the apostles died, the gifts died with them. They were never meant to be a permanent activity in this world. (1 Cor 13:8-13) They were not to take place in heaven, but right here on earth where God always intended for us to live forever. (Matthew 5:5)

The "laying on of hands", was the passing of the spiritual gifts onto others. Only the apostles and spiritually qualified men could do that. It was to last only until the congregation was firmly established. Long enough for the spiritual infants to take on solid food instead of just the milk. (Hebrews 5:12-14)

Brickjectivity said:

Snake Handling
Perhaps healing ministry in churches seems innocent to many; but it is extremely bad, warped religion and ranges in how damaging it is. To begin with it is used to shore up belief or is claimed to. It is put forward as Jesus idea which is preposterous!

Click to expand...

The snake handling was based on an event relating how Paul was bitten by a poisonous snake and survived. The pagan people who witnessed that event began calling Paul a "god". (Acts 28:1-6)

Snake handlers base their actions on Mark 16:17, 18. Those verses include the words: “With their hands they will pick up serpents.” The King James Version and other older translations present those verses as if they were part of the original text. The New Revised Standard Version, The New American Standard Bible, and The New King James Version note that those verses do not appear in most of the oldest manuscripts of Mark’s Gospel.

Many have died doing this. There is no basis for it in correctly translated scripture. Jesus said we were not to "put God to the test". (Luke 4:12)

Brickjectivity said:

Signs
...But a minister might argue (ignorantly) "What about the resurrection of the dead? Surely you aren't going to deny that is a sign?" What if I do? I'm only following Jesus own example, and I hope you will do the same and be healed! In his parable a rich man dies and goes to a place of suffering, but a poor man goes to a place of comfort. The rich man wishes to warn his own family but is not permitted, and Jesus ends with this point: If they do not believe Moses and the Prophets, they will not even if someone rises from the dead!

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First of all it is to be noted that Jews had no belief in an immortal soul, so there was no "life after death" in their belief system until it was corrupted. They did however believe in a resurrection of the dead...back to mortal life on earth under the reign of their Messianic King.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is no more literal than all the other parables that Jesus gave...they are teaching tools. This parable is about the Pharisees (represented by the rich man) and the beggar Lazarus (representing the spiritually malnourished common folk whom the Pharisees despised as unworthy of their attention.)The ones represented by the beggar (the lost sheep of the house of Israel) were the very ones Jesus was sent to. (Matthew 15:24) The beggar was lucky to receive a few crumbs falling from the table of the rich man. Their deaths signified a change in their status from God's perspective....a reversal in fact. Those humble Jews who accepted Jesus were now in "the bosom" position (one of favor) and the religious leaders were not. This is why they wanted to get rid of Jesus. That is not the message they wanted the people to hear, but this rabbi was more than an excellent teacher, he could perform miracles, of the kind that made a real difference to his suffering listeners. It is important to note that none of these miracles failed to deliver, because they were accomplished by the greatest power in existence....God's spirit.

Brickjectivity said:

The Skeptical Future of Christianity
(NIV Matthew 12:39)
"He answered, 'A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.' "

Click to expand...

Indeed....there are no "signs" in this time period because the Bible said such "signs and wonders" would be an evidence of the activity of satan. These would certainly not have a 100% success rate because they would come from an inferior power.

At 2 Thess 2:9-12, Paul warned...."But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

People want to be deceived by these things because Paul indicated that these are the traits of a spiritual infant.
Full grown Christians now would exhibit the more mature qualities of "faith, hope and love". (1 Corinthians 13:11-12) Those who need to see half baked miracles, need to grow up.
They might also need to understand how the placebo effect works.

Brickjectivity said:

Jesus not only embraces Jewish skepticism, but it is fair to assume the culture that surrounds him does also from the early apostle to his brother, James, to all of his followers. The more the miracles, the more skeptical we should consider them to be and we ought to be.

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Absolutely! Anyone depending on miracles for their faith will soon be disappointed. No one was ever told in the Bible that a failure to heal was a deficiency of their faith. Some were healed without even knowing who Jesus was.

Brickjectivity said:

Christians today are considered to be 'Conservative' or 'Liberal'. I view them as 'Dying' and 'Renewing'. Expect the future of Christianity to be more informed, more skeptical, more genuine, more biblical.

Click to expand...

Yes...just a Daniel foretold.....the "abundance of knowledge" at this time would be available to all, which makes ignorance less of an excuse. Laziness produces weak Christians. Those who know their Bible and understand the big picture will not be easily led away by fake tricks...and lame excuses for why they failed.

It is not how much we know about God but how much he knows about us. "Knowledge puffs up...love builds up" so we have to have a balanced view of our own importance, and God's backing to succeed in a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19)

Good job.

Most, not all, of what you say is my understanding as well, Deeje. Jesus said that the "word of God" was a seed. Jesus gave us that seed being the "Word" of God. The only "Word".

The spiritual understanding we seek was given by the Spirit of Truth, something the Jews never had. The Jews were following the angels (of gods) until the true Spirit (capital S) came into the flesh. (John 7:39) OT=spirit, Gnosis=Spirit.

Jesus told the Jews that they were following the father of spiritual ignorance (John 8:44) and that of the flesh.

He got so frustrated at their lack of understanding, of listening to their father(s) over the truth he spoke of HIS father that he finally exclaimed:

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Jesus "word" was the seed of truth. It was spirit, and the Jews saw flesh. They saw the law. Circumcision. Rituals of flesh. Etc. Jesus tried to tell them:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.- John 6

The Jews never had what Jesus taught. And the Spirit, once given to man, taught us the gnosis that many wrote about, yet were discarded (by early catholics) in favor of the Hebrews scriptures.

The Gospel is the Word. We choose where we seek our continued "understanding" of it. Does the Hebrew scriptures "make the seed grow" or does spiritual gnosis produce the seeds results? Since the result of the OT was to kill Christ (and the prophets), and to turn the catholics into murderers of those they didn't understand (gnostic/heresy), we see the "fruits of the seed produced) and follow it as the Jews did.

The words "it is finished" ended something. Seek out what ended, to find the beginning.

Spiritual gnosis either elates the spirit in us, or is rejected through misunderstanding.

Gospel of Thomas:
(18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death."