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How are these Great Beings explained?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I found this about William Miller.

Proof XII.
It can be proved by the two witness being clothed in sackcloth 1260 years. See Rev. xi. 3: "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." This time began with Papacy, 536, and ended in 1798, during which time the Bible was suppressed from the laity, in all the countries where Papacy had power, until the laws of the Papal hierarchy were abolished and free toleration was granted to the Papal States in 1798. Then the remainder harmonizes with the trumpets: see Rev. xi. 14, 15: "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." And terminates with A. D. 1843. (See Miller's Lectures, p. 190.)

The Baha'is use the start of Islam and add 1260 "lunar" years to get to 1844. So they both manipulate the numbers to get to 1844, except Miller, in this quote, came up a year short. So who was the Baha'i that came up with using the Islamic calendar? Was it Abdu'l Baha or just an ordinary Baha'i?

Protestant Christians often attribute the beast to the Papal heirachy. Increasingly they are turning their attention to Islam.

As for Miller's calculation, he get got it right the second time.

2300days.jpg


William Miller (preacher) - Wikipedia
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Miss A.H letters captures on one hand her attraction to the Baha'i Teachings and on the other her confusion and at times distress with the misinformation and basic errors promoted by Kheiralla. The guy is unable to relay basic information accurately or consistently. For example the Bab was born October 20th 1819 and declared to Mulla Husayn on the evening of 22nd May 1844. He would have been 24 years of age at the time, yet the passage above Kheiralla says He is 20 years old when He appeared whereas in the link you shared Kheirella says he is 19 years old. Seriously, the guy can't count and from the little I have read has so many facts wrong I don't know where to begin.

The whole Daniel 8:13-14 prophecy was commonly known among many in America and in the West due to William Millers calculations, so I don't think we have any evidence to support your view that Abdu'l-Baha's source was Kheirella, especially with the vastly different views each had about other aspects of biblical prophecy.
So cite a source that has Abdu'l Baha (or any other Baha'i for that matter) explicating Daniel 8:13-14 before 1898. I'll happily concede if you do. But once again - you are seeking to distract from the point at issue by raising irrelevant points about the character and faith (or lack thereof) of a covenant breaker and entirely ignoring the fact that even if Abdu'l Baha discovered Miller's calculation independently (odd that he wouldn't have read Kheiralla's book or corresponded with him about such an important topic though don't you think?) it doesn't change the fact that an unfaithful covenant breaker who couldn't even count still got the right answer before the authorized interpreter or the divine Manifestation. So much for divine inspiration!
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
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siti

Well-Known Member
Abdul-Baha referred to 1260 in the same book that we have the reference to Daniel. Although it was poblished in 1908 it was from a series of table talks given between 1904-1906.
Right - so also after the unreliable and untrustworthy Ibrahim Kheiralla made the same link in his book in 1900.
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
We are speaking about real life here not mythological characters only existing in comic books.
In real life humans create gods, gods don't create humans....... Men have created thousands of spirits and deities of all kinds...... humans have existed for a million years as small hunting and gathering groups, largely with a very minimum knowledge of anything.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Right - so also after the unreliable and untrustworthy Ibrahim Kheiralla made the same link in his book in 1900.

I would suspect Gulpáygání, Mirza Abu'l-Fadl would have instigated a lot of this thought, as he wrote on many of these topics. He would have got these ideas from the works of the Bab, Baha'u'llah and most likely Abdul'baha. A lot is yet to be published.

Works. Gulpaygani wrote on a wide range of subjects within a general Bahá'í framework. His style both in Arabic and Persian is elegant and compelling. After his death, his papers, which included several unfinished works, were taken byShaykh Muhammad `Ali Qa'ini to Ashkhabad, where Gulpaygani's nephew, Sayyid Mahdi Gulpaygani also lived. Unfortunately these were lost at the time of the Russian Revolution.

a. Sharh-i-Ayat-i-Mu'arrakhih ("In Explanation of Sacred Verses that Prophesy Dates"), a work on the prophecies in the scriptures of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism about the date of the coming of the Promised One. It was written at the request of Muhammad Mahdi Mirza Mu'ayyadu's-Saltanih in Hamadan in 1888. It was published twice: once on its own in India, and once with the Risalih Ayyubiyyih in Shanghai in 1344/1925.

b. Risalih Ayyubiyyih (Treatise addressed to Ayyub). While Gulpaygani was in Hamadan, a great many Jews inquired about the Bahá'í Faith. One Bahá'í of Jewish background, Hakim Mirza Ayyub wrote to Gulpaygani from Tehran asking him a number of questions related to the Torah and the prophecies relating to the coming of the Promised One. This treatise was sent in reply in 1305/1887.

Gulpáygání, Mirza Abu'l-Fadl
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So cite a source that has Abdu'l Baha (or any other Baha'i for that matter) explicating Daniel 8:13-14 before 1898. I'll happily concede if you do. But once again - you are seeking to distract from the point at issue by raising irrelevant points about the character and faith (or lack thereof) of a covenant breaker and entirely ignoring the fact that even if Abdu'l Baha discovered Miller's calculation independently (odd that he wouldn't have read Kheiralla's book or corresponded with him about such an important topic though don't you think?) it doesn't change the fact that an unfaithful covenant breaker who couldn't even count still got the right answer before the authorized interpreter or the divine Manifestation. So much for divine inspiration!

The first reference we have to the Daniel prophecy is from some answered questions. Abdu'l-Baha had little contact with Westerners until later on in life. He was born in Persia the same night the Bab declared to Mulla Husayn May 1844. He was exiled along with His Father throughout the Ottoman empire until incarerated in Akka. He was unable to travel abroad earlier because of restrictions placed on Him by authorities. So it wasn't until the first Western pilgrims started to visit him in Akka during the early twentieth century that He starting talking in much more depth about Christian topics. You will note that in 'Some Answered Questions' he refers to Daniel as a 'traditional' proof. In other words he is referring to a known Christian tradtions when explaining Daniel 8:3-4.

Although Kheiralla refers to the Daniel prophecy in 1898 it is likely a result of his Christian background as he also links the beast in revelations to the Pope. So the reason an unfaithful covenant breaker got the right answer, was because he knew of William Miller's interpretation. William Miller was the one who first got it right.

I'm not aware of any correspondence between Kheiralla and Abdu'l-Baha and would be suprised if there was any.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
We need to hear from Northern Hemisphere Baha'is... And some Baha'i women too.
Well, I'm surprised that we are hearing from present members.
Some Northern Bahai leaders have been in place much longer than Mr Mugabe was, but such names just don't seem to introduce themselves on IT.
I feel confident in guessing that individual Bahai opinions are not much supported by Bahai. Just what might happen to individual Bahai (and secular) opinions in a Bahai World itself is a mind-boggler. A terrifying mind-boggler.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Let us find the answer from Scriptures (John 16):

21A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world.22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy.
It would be helpful if Jesus had ever said that, but we'll never know. John lived upon an Island off Ephesus, and writing circa 100-120CE, so he was no eye or ear witness to anything.
Here's a test for you: Do you believe that John's account of bringing Lazarus back to life after three days interred is true? Yes, or No? If No, then please be more careful about what you decide John claims about other stuff.

So it is now obvious that Jesus is saying when you see the time of 'kingdom against kingdom' is passed, it was just the time of giving Birth. And by Birth He means when He comes again..
Do you believe this? If so, then Bahauallah is really just Jesus, Yes?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
No,no, Satan has tricked everyone. There's only one God, in three parts. That God created Satan, but he created him good. Satan went bad, so God had to kick him out of heaven. God figured Earth would be a good place to send him.
................................................

On the side, back in the day you would have been aware that Bahais do not believe that evil exists, there is no action or thing that is Evil. Corrrect?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The continuation of the interpretation of the Book of Revelation. This post is for Adrian and the other Baha'is.

In an RF debate some years ago, a member explained that an hallucinogenic mushroom grows (or did grow) all over that Island where John resided, and possibly on Ephesus as well.

If correct, and I don't doubt it, could such mushrooms give a slightly better understanding about Revelations?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Nowhere near Flowery enough, and not enough Capital Letters. Not even a passing grade. Oceans of Lotus Filled Greatness await You if one but had the Glorious Sight of the Dearest Highest Wonder and Most Awesomest Splendour that is the Returning Saint of Ancient Persia.
Where was the Nightingale? We need at least one Nightingale, a Mystic one, preferably. And a Wellspring of Spiritual Guidance might be nice?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So I guess I only have one question... what's this all about?

A lot, in Rev 14:1 we have a lamb again on Mt.Zion with 144,000 and it says that the hour of His judgment has come.

But we already had Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah come as the 3 Woes. We already had all the beasts and dragons come. Now what's happening?

Do keep in mind that the book of revelation does not follow a methodical chronological order. We've discussed this before and I have used as an example how the seven headed ten horned beast features in several chapters 12, 13, and 17 as well as in Daniel 7.

There are no specific references to this verse in Chapter 14 from the Baha'i writings.

Mt Zion rather than a physical location near Jerusalem is most likely the holy mountain. For the Baha'is this would be a reference to Mount Carmel which the Baha'i writings specifically associate with Isaiah 2:2-5 and Isaiah 9:6-7.

The word lamb is a Messianic symbol for Christ and the Mesiah. In this context it is most likely Abdu'l-Baha who bears the name of His Father, Baha'u'llah. Abdu'l-Baha is also buried in the shrine of the Bab on mount carmel and was born the same night the Bab first declared. As Abdu'l-Baha is the perfect exempler of His Father's teachings, His appointed successor, and the one who wrote tablets of the Divine plan which would lead to the worldwide establsih of his Father's faith, then being identified with the lamb here makes sense to me. In addition he is the first fruits which is an important conceept in Jewish and Christian thought.

Let's look at the verse:

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The 144,000 I believe represent the twelve tribes of the nation of Israel times the tribes of all the other nations = 144 times 1,000 being a great multitude. In summary many peoples from all the nations and regions of the earth.

I would be interested to hear what my fellow Baha'is make of this verse.

But in chapter 17 we have an explanation. The beast once was, is not and come back. 7 hills are 7 kings... 5 have fallen, 1 is and another is to come, and the beast is an 8th king. 10 horns are 10 kings that will wage war against the Lamb. The Lamb wins because He is the King of Kings. The woman is the Great City.

We do not have any specific Baha'i writings referring to chapter 17 either but it is the same seven headed, ten horned beast again, so the Islamic Caliphate as characterised by the Umayyad dynasty.

This part about the different Kings will have different explanations. Let look at the verses:

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


We have seven dominions or empires symbolized by seven kings. Five will have fallen under the control of foreign powers before their conquest by the
beast. These five were perhaps the Roman (Byzantine) dominion around Damascus (Syria, Palestine), the dominions of Arabia, Egypt, Africa (Libya), and Andalusia (Spain). One dominion "is," meaning that it will remain sovereign until the "hour" of the beast. This was Persia. The dominion which "is not come" was Turkestan-Transoxania.

In the first century, the region now known as Turkestan was occupied by nomadic pastoralists and sedentary cultivators. The region became Turkish in the sixth century AD, about 500 years after the writing of the Apocalypse. It was conquered in the late seventh and early eighth centuries by the Umayyads who
gave the region the name of Ma Wara'an-Nahr, "the land beyond the Oxus" or "Transoxania." Verse 10 explains that the dominin will continue a short space. The prophecy means that Turkestan-Transoxania will cease to exist with the invasion of Genghis Khan 1218-1220 AD.

Verse 11 explains that the beast will have an eighth ruler, who is one of the seven, and who will ultimately be destroyed. This refers to The Caliph. The caliphate was abolished by the Turkish Grand National Assembly 1924, less than three years after the Ascension of 'Abdu'l-Baha.
(Adapted from Robert Riggs, the apocalypse unsealed)

Once again, the views of my fellow Baha'is would be helpful.

Then in 18:9 there's more "Woes" ...Babylon's doom has come.

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.


Babylon symbolises corrupt theology as Jerusalem is the pure revelation of God. These verses remind us that the kings and merchants of the earth have become rich by making use of false doctrine, and serving the whore.

In chapter 19 the wedding day of the Lamb has come. The beast and the kings are captured.

Simply the day when the law of God is exalted and closely embraced amonsgt the peoples again and injustice and iniquity are conquered.

Chapter 20 Satan locked in the Abyss for a 1000 years, then released and destroyed. There's Gog and Magog. Then the New Earth and New Jerusalem and God and the Lamb are its Temple. And only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life included, the cast into the Abyss.

These verses prophesy another time of troubles following them millenium of peace. "Gog and Magog" symbolize the rulers and peoples who are ruled by satanic forces. That these are not literal names can be inferred by comparing this use of the terms with their use by Ezekiel. In Ezekiel, Gog is the prince of the Rosh, Mesehech, and Tubal in the land of Magog.

With chapter 21 and we do have some references from the baha'i writings:

Every heart should radiate unity, so that the Light of the one Divine Source of all may shine forth bright and luminous. We must not consider the separate waves alone, but the entire sea. We should rise from the individual to the whole. The spirit is as one great ocean and the waves thereof are the souls of men.
We are told in the Holy Scripture that the New Jerusalem shall appear on earth. Now it is evident that this celestial city is not built of material stones and mortar, but that it is a city not made with hands, eternal in the Heavens.
This is a prophetic symbol, meaning the coming again of the Divine Teaching to enlighten the hearts of men. It is long since this Holy Guidance has governed the lives of humanity. But now, at last, the Holy City of the New Jerusalem has come again to the world, it has appeared anew under an Eastern sky; from the horizon of Persia has its effulgence arisen to be a light to lighten the whole world. We see in these days the fulfilment of the Divine Prophecy. Jerusalem had disappeared. The heavenly city was destroyed, now it is rebuilt; it was razed to the ground, but now its walls and pinnacles have been restored, and are towering aloft in their renewed and glorious beauty.
In the Western world material prosperity has triumphed, whilst in the East the spiritual sun has shone forth.

PARIS TALKS

The Manifestation of God or the Word of God becomes the new temple. There are various allusions to this in the NT and Baha'i writings.

So I guess I only have one question... what's this all about?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Most atheists I knew were very happy. I don't see any relationship between faith and happiness. Happiness can strike anyone.

Perhaps not, but a disprotionately high number of people I see who abuse drugs, have involvement with the criminal justice system, or have no direction or meaning in their life have no faith.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Definitely. Very different paradigm, and 1000 times wider in doctrines/philosophies. Each of a thousand schools is as large philosophically as Baha'i. A newcomer could get the entire gist of Baha'i in a couple of hours, probably much less. Whereas Hinduism ... I'm 40 years in, and still don't know much.

I think with any faith it is relatively easy to get the short story but to really understand it in depth takes much longer. I don't think you have a sound knowledge of the Abrahmic faiths at all, but I don't expect you to either.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
No....... I was getting at ........ that my Goddess is a, ummm..... female Deity, the only one 'n all.

For a Deist, all things out there are a part of Nature, and since I have always thought of 'Mother Nature' I am quite prepared to snuggle down into her feminine embrace, come hell or high water...... probably both, one day.

Ah, mother nature yes. From dust we came, and to dust we will return.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
And yet, it seems you are unable to see the double standard. When I read that paper, it seemed quite clear that they understood the basics of Baha'i belief. Of course after the introduction of 'What is Baha'i?' It went on to explain how Christianity was so much better, giving all the point-counterpount one might expect. The format was very similar to the Momen (sp) Baha'i paper on Hinduism.

So it's not okay for Christians to give their relationship, view of Baha'i, yet it is okay for Baha'i' to give their version of Christianity. (and al the other world's faiths) That seems hypocritical.

I think the Christians are basically sincere. They genuinely belief that we are all heading for hell and they want to correct us by reminding us that our religions are false and only through Jeus can we be saved. That's not what the Baha'i are saying, not that the Christian view bothers me. It used to.

There are fundamental errors in their brief presentation of the Baha'i Faith. Are you sure you understand the Baha'i Faith?

Baha'i.

false_religion.gif
False

Debatable.

world religion founded by the Bab in 1844.

Founded by Baha'u'llah actually. The Babi Faith is a seperate religion.

Originated from Shiite Muslim.

We believe it originated from God. The Baha'i Faith emerged as an independant religion from a Shiite Muslim country just as Christianity emerged from Judaism.

Contradicts itself, denies the essentials of Christianity.

Thats because Christianity has become corrupted.

"While claiming to be the great unifier of all religions,


The Baha'is Faith makes no such claim. We do try to consort with all peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship. We encourage others to do the same. We are not in the business of try to act as a mediator to reconcile the Catholics and Protestants or the Shiites and Sunnis though.

Baha'is ironically deny all other religions by attempting to make each one conform to their concept of the universal religion of God.

No we don't. That makes it sound as if we go round different Faith communities trying to tell them what to do. We don't.

They have amalgamated bits and pieces of each faith into one eclectic mass of religious confusion."
(David L Johnson.)

We're based on the Teachings of Baha'u'llah. That phrase makes it sound like we take bits and pieces out of different religions. We don't.

A few of the contradictions in Baha'i:
  • Baha'i claims that each famous religious leader (eg, Moses, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, etc) is supposed to have been a manifestation of God.

  • True about the four listed.

  • Unfortunately for Baha'i, Buddha and Confucius lived at the same time (between about 550-480 B.C.), as did the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
    Note: Watchman Fellowship in their
    offsite.gif
    Baha'i Profile points out "The infallible Center of the Covenant (Abdu'l Baha) said that Confucius was a Manifestation (Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.346)
Abdu'l-Baha did not say that about Confucius at all.
  • Baha'u'llah taught that the universe had no beginning and had no end, which contradicts the second law of thermodynamics. (One of the fundamental principles of Baha'i is that harmony must exist between religion and science.)
Debatable. I believe there is no contradiction at all.
  • Baha'u'llah's teaching that the universe had no beginning and had no end contradicts his own teaching that God made the universe out of nothing.
Baha'u'llah did not teach that God made the universe out of nothing.

He has said:

"O SON OF BOUNTY! Out of the wastes of nothingness, with the clay of My command I made thee to appear, and have ordained for thy training every atom in existence and the essence of all created things.
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 32

  • Baha'u'llah taught that religious truth is not absolute, which is self refuting. (See the Self Refuting Statements page for some more examples.) This means Baha'u'llah was a false prophet.
There is only contradictions for those that are literally minded. How about Einstein's theory of relativity?

For more information read this excellent Baha'i article by David L Johnson, DMin, MA, or for a closer look at some of the contradictions within Baha'i regarding the nature of God read
offsite.gif
Some Key Issues Considered. Information can also be found at former Baha'i Eric Stetson's
offsite.gif
Baha'i Faith site. He writes: "My instincts tell me that as the Baha'i Faith fails to keep its converts,

Some people join and then leave. That happens with any religion.

fails to grow

The Baha'i Faith was the fastest growing religion in the twentieth century.

and in fact declines in membership,

We are experiencing slow growth in the West

ts leaders are gradually transforming it into more of a cult in order to preserve what they have."


Whatever that means.....

Note that we do not agree with all of Eric's theology, particularly his beliefs regarding Hell.
 
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