How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka said:

You need eyes to see too. And you can't be diseased or suffering from delusions, and you have to be walking towards God, with no superstitions. (God, all this is really hard! I don't know how they do it.)

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If you haveth feet to walk and a mouth to talk, you willeth go to places and be able to speaketh, therefore speaketh thou wisely as those who have walked before thee. And be not of the veiled ones who see not and walketh in the error of their own making. (I think I'm getting the hang of it)

InvestigateTruth said:

Did not Kingdoms rise against Kingdom in 18 or 19th century?

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Aha! Yes - you're right - they did...er...um...oh yes - they did it in the 17th and 16th and 15th and 14th...oh yes and the 20th (big style) and even the 21st... and (going backwards again)... the 1st century...ah! there's an interesting one - did Kingdoms rise against Kingdoms in the 1st century? My God! Yes! Of course they did - couldn't be that the late first/early second century compiler of Jesus' "sayings" was referring to events in his own time could it? I wonder if that's why he had Jesus say "this generation [i.e. the one contemporaneous with Jesus] will not pass away" before all the signs he just gave would be fulfilled? (Luke 21:32, Matthew 24:34) - Nah! Couldn't be, could it?

oldbadger said:

Come on...... be gentle on them, after all, they do get out of bed upside down.....

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Hey - steady on chaps - I'm south of the equator too! Oops - I fear I've just done the Baha'i trick of making your argument for you!

CG Didymus said:

If you haveth feet to walk and a mouth to talk, you willeth go to places and be able to speaketh, therefore speaketh thou wisely as those who have walked before thee. And be not of the veiled ones who see not and walketh in the error of their own making. (I think I'm getting the hang of it)

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May I act as your uninspired but divinely authorized interpreter?

How about "If thou hast eyes to see and ears to hear and thy vision be not veiled, how cometh it that thou smelleth not the rat?"

siti said:

May I act as your uninspired but divinely authorized interpreter?

How about "If thou hast eyes to see and ears to hear and thy vision be not veiled, how cometh it that thou smelleth not the rat?"

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No,no, you're too humble, that is truly inspired.

CG Didymus said:

A lot, in Rev 14:1 we have a lamb again on Mt.Zion with 144,000 and it says that the hour of His judgment has come.

But we already had Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah come as the 3 Woes. We already had all the beasts and dragons come. Now what's happening?

But in chapter 17 we have an explanation. The beast once was, is not and come back. 7 hills are 7 kings... 5 have fallen, 1 is and another is to come, and the beast is an 8th king. 10 horns are 10 kings that will wage war against the Lamb. The Lamb wins because He is the King of Kings. The woman is the Great City.

Then in 18:9 there's more "Woes" ...Babylon's doom has come. In chapter 19 the wedding day of the Lamb has come. The beast and the kings are captured. Chapter 20 Satan locked in the Abyss for a 1000 years, then released and destroyed. There's Gog and Magog. Then the New Earth and New Jerusalem and God and the Lamb are its Temple. And only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life included, the cast into the Abyss.

So I guess I only have one question... what's this all about?

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The continuation of the interpretation of the Book of Revelation. This post is for Adrian and the other Baha'is.

CG Didymus said:

If you haveth feet to walk and a mouth to talk, you willeth go to places and be able to speaketh, therefore speaketh thou wisely as those who have walked before thee. And be not of the veiled ones who see not and walketh in the error of their own making. (I think I'm getting the hang of it)

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Nowhere near Flowery enough, and not enough Capital Letters. Not even a passing grade. Oceans of Lotus Filled Greatness await You if one but had the Glorious Sight of the Dearest Highest Wonder and Most Awesomest Splendour that is the Returning Saint of Ancient Persia.

siti said:

Hey - steady on chaps - I'm south of the equator too! Oops - I fear I've just done the Baha'i trick of making your argument for you!

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I was down under this orb twice. Isle de Maurice.

Fiji - 18 years and counting - and I definitely got out of bed upside down this morning!

siti said:

Fiji - 18 years and counting - and I definitely got out of bed upside down this morning!

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I occasionally go to a couple of Fijian run Hindu temples here. Nice people. Much more organic than some other immigrant Hindus in Canada.

siti said:

Aha! Yes - you're right - they did...er...um...oh yes - they did it in the 17th and 16th and 15th and 14th...oh yes and the 20th (big style) and even the 21st... and (going backwards again)... the 1st century...ah! there's an interesting one - did Kingdoms rise against Kingdoms in the 1st century? My God! Yes! Of course they did - couldn't be that the late first/early second century compiler of Jesus' "sayings" was referring to events in his own time could it?....

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It depends how you interpret Kingdoms. My understanding is Kingdoms were the Kings and Queens. The Monarchies and it was precisely just before and during the first world war that kingdoms raised against kingdoms and nations against nations. Before it was not worldwide. Can you show me another time like the first world war, that there a world war? Such wars did not continue much after 19th century. Refer to wikipedia:

List of former monarchies - Wikipedia

Even the second world war was not kingdoms against kingdoms.
You are correct, that in earlier times also there were many wars, and many times a kingdom rise against another, but was there a time when At the same time, many kingdoms and nations rise against each other? If yes. Show me when was it?

I wonder if that's why he had Jesus say "this generation [i.e. the one contemporaneous with Jesus] will not pass away" before all the signs he just gave would be fulfilled? (Luke 21:32, Matthew 24:34) - Nah! Couldn't be, could it?

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Ok, let's read the passage carefully:

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


We have to think, what does Fig Tree have to do with Return of Christ?
The idea is that, the Religion or Word of God is like a good tree. It is planted by the Revelation. Then this Tree has its seasons: Spring, Summer, fall and Winter. For instance the Tree of God was planted by Christ at the time of Spiritual Spring. Then it went through stages, first its summer came, when the spiritual fruits of the Tree of divinity was manifested, and then it went through its spiritual decline, fall and winter passed. At this time, it is the End of it, and it no longer gives Spiritual Fruits.

Likewise, when Moses appeared He planted the Tree of God, and there was a period of Time when the Tree of His Revelation was spiritually fruitful, until at the End it was no longer giving fruits. It was at that Time Jesus came and planted the Tree of God again. You have heard of the story Jesus cursed the Tree because it was not giving fruits?

Thus, going back to the verses: they ask Jesus when will you return? He says, first you will see the summer of my Revelation. The Spiritual fruits of My revelation must first appear, then after that the fall and End comes, when I must return to plant the Tree of God again. You will see the Summer of My Revelation before you spiritually pass away! Here Jesus is not literally speaking of the physical death, but Spiritual death of Christianity! Now, this interpretation is quite in parallel with how Baha'i scriptures explain the meaning of 'Tree', and its seasons and fruits, and Spiritual death of a People.

siti said:

But he was the first Millerite Baha'i was he not?

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There is no such thing as a Millerite Baha'i.

siti said:

He was the first to link Daniel's time prophecies to the appearance of the Bab.

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That's an assumption. You will need to cite your evidence before I can comment further.

siti said:

Now you are all - quite unashamedly - Millerites based on Abdu'l Baha's later incorporation of Kheiralla's interpretations - which originally included some that are now rejected but Abdu'l Baha previously accepted - to do with the 1335 days and 1917 and various other dates that turned out to be as insignificant in reality as 1844 had been for the Millerite Christians? Yes?

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Once again, where's the evidence?

siti said:

So your response implies that God used a 'covenant breaker' (a) to open up the USA to the Baha'i revelation and (b) to provide an interpretation for the only authorized interpreter to adopt - presumably on account of the fact that the Millerite interpretation (although correct) had occurred to neither of the divinely inspired "Great Beings" nor their divinely authorized 'interpreter'. It just seems odd that with all this divine revelation and authorization flying around all over the place, it was left to an unfaithful usurper to get the right answer. Surely God moves in mysterious ways.

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Clearly Ibrahim Kheiralla had success in attracting Westerners to the Baha'i Faith in the USA. However of far greater significance was Abdu'l-Baha's visit to America in 1912. Baha'u'llah had clearly appointed Abdu'l-Baha as His successor, while Kheirella appointed himself as leader of the Baha'is in America, a claim that most Baha'is rightly rejected.

Vinayaka said:

Nowhere near Flowery enough, and not enough Capital Letters. Not even a passing grade. Oceans of Lotus Filled Greatness await You if one but had the Glorious Sight of the Dearest Highest Wonder and Most Awesomest Splendour that is the Returning Saint of Ancient Persia.

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Oh, I See... Capital Letters. And Lots of Flowers? Like Begonias And Petunias? Do You Actually Have To Make A Point Or Is It Better To Just Ramble On?

adrian009 said:

There is no such thing as a Millerite Baha'i.



That's an assumption. You will need to cite your evidence before I can comment further.



Once again, where's the evidence?



Clearly Ibrahim Kheiralla had success in attracting Westerners to the Baha'i Faith in the USA. However of far greater significance was Abdu'l-Baha's visit to America in 1912. Baha'u'llah had clearly appointed Abdu'l-Baha as His successor, while Kheirella appointed himself as leader of the Baha'is in America, a claim that most Baha'is rightly rejected.

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See Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion - Edward G. Browne, 1918

Check pages 116-142 for the outlines of Kheiralla's lessons as recorded by a Miss A.H. of Brooklyn NY and sent to Professor Edward G. Granville in 1898 - ten years before Abdu'l Baha gave the authoritative statement cited by IT earlier in Some Answered Questions regarding the 2300 years of Daniel 8:13-14. In particular note that the 2300 years calculation is outlined on p.140 and on p.137 it is noted that Kheiralla specifically linked this in his teaching to the appearance of the Millerites.

And here is a short passage from Kheiralla's 1900 book Beha' u'llah (The Glory of God) (p 387-388):

InvestigateTruth said:

It depends how you interpret Kingdoms. My understanding is Kingdoms were the Kings and Queens. The Monarchies and it was precisely just before and during the first world war that kingdoms raised against kingdoms and nations against nations. Before it was not worldwide. Can you show me another time like the first world war, that there a world war? Such wars did not continue much after 19th century.

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In which century did the first and second world wars take place then? I'm really not following your reasoning here at all.

siti said:

But he was the first Millerite Baha'i was he not? He was the first to link Daniel's time prophecies to the appearance of the Bab. Now you are all - quite unashamedly - Millerites based on Abdu'l Baha's later incorporation of Kheiralla's interpretations - which originally included some that are now rejected but Abdu'l Baha previously accepted - to do with the 1335 days and 1917 and various other dates that turned out to be as insignificant in reality as 1844 had been for the Millerite Christians? Yes? So your response implies that God used a 'covenant breaker' (a) to open up the USA to the Baha'i revelation and (b) to provide an interpretation for the only authorized interpreter to adopt - presumably on account of the fact that the Millerite interpretation (although correct) had occurred to neither of the divinely inspired "Great Beings" nor their divinely authorized 'interpreter'. It just seems odd that with all this divine revelation and authorization flying around all over the place, it was left to an unfaithful usurper to get the right answer. Surely God moves in mysterious ways.

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I found this about William Miller.

Proof XII. It can be proved by the two witness being clothed in sackcloth 1260 years. See Rev. xi. 3: "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." This time began with Papacy, 536, and ended in 1798, during which time the Bible was suppressed from the laity, in all the countries where Papacy had power, until the laws of the Papal hierarchy were abolished and free toleration was granted to the Papal States in 1798. Then the remainder harmonizes with the trumpets: see Rev. xi. 14, 15: "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." And terminates with A. D. 1843. (See Miller's Lectures, p. 190.)

The Baha'is use the start of Islam and add 1260 "lunar" years to get to 1844. So they both manipulate the numbers to get to 1844, except Miller, in this quote, came up a year short. So who was the Baha'i that came up with using the Islamic calendar? Was it Abdu'l Baha or just an ordinary Baha'i?

siti said:

In which century did the first and second world wars take place then? I'm really not following your reasoning here at all.

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Since the wars and rumors of war happen prior to the return, it becomes obvious that WWI happened before the year 1844.

CG Didymus said:

I found this about William Miller.

Proof XII. It can be proved by the two witness being clothed in sackcloth 1260 years. See Rev. xi. 3: "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." This time began with Papacy, 536, and ended in 1798, during which time the Bible was suppressed from the laity, in all the countries where Papacy had power, until the laws of the Papal hierarchy were abolished and free toleration was granted to the Papal States in 1798. Then the remainder harmonizes with the trumpets: see Rev. xi. 14, 15: "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." And terminates with A. D. 1843. (See Miller's Lectures, p. 190.)

The Baha'is use the start of Islam and add 1260 "lunar" years to get to 1844. So they both manipulate the numbers to get to 1844, except Miller, in this quote, came up a year short. So who was the Baha'i that came up with using the Islamic calendar? Was it Abdu'l Baha or just an ordinary Baha'i?

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I can't recall all the details but I believe Miller had several stabs at the date and the most widely anticipated was not actually a date but a year - March 22, 1843 to March 22, 1844 (or something like that) which is why we sometimes see both years cited. When March 1844 came and went without incident, it was changed again to October 1844 and when that passed the Millerites dissolved into various other Adventist sects that adopted different methods of calculation or satisfied themselves with a general "it is imminent but we don't know the exact date" approach - presumably in order to avoid further great disappointment. I have no idea who first came up with the 1260AH date from the Muslim calendar - I suspect that might even have predated the Babi/Baha'i religions but I'm not sure. It definitely was cited in the excerpt I just quoted from Kheiralla's 1900 book about Baha'u'llah but I don't know if that was already a Baha'i teaching before then or not. Its far more likely I think that Abdu'l Baha would have got a date from a Muslim calendar than a Christian one - but there is no question that Baha'i's unabashedly adopted Miller's interpretation and sought to benefit from the Millerite disappointment (see my previous post).

CG Didymus said:

Since the wars and rumors of war happen prior to the return, it becomes obvious that WWI happened before the year 1844.

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Yeah! That's what I was thinking - no wonder I failed history at school!

siti said:

See Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion - Edward G. Browne, 1918

Check pages 116-142 for the outlines of Kheiralla's lessons as recorded by a Miss A.H. of Brooklyn NY and sent to Professor Edward G. Granville in 1898 - ten years before Abdu'l Baha gave an authoritative statement regarding the 2300 years of Daniel 8:13-14. In particular note that the 2300 years calculation is outlined on p.140 and on p.137 it is noted that Kheiralla specifically linked this in his teaching to the appearance of the Millerites.

And here is a short passage from Kheiralla's 1900 book Beha' u'llah (The Glory of God) (p 387-188):

In 1844, the Millerites of this country, dressed themselves in white robes, gave away their earthly
possessions and went forth to meet God in the air. They were disappointed, but they were not mistaken. From study of the scriptures, they expected His appearance in the clonds of heaven whereas clouds of spiritual obscurity were meant by the prophets.

In 1844, there appeared in Persia, a young man of twenty years, who possessed the highest powers of wisdom and spiritual inspiration. He is known in history as Mirza Ali Mohammed. He called himself "The Bab," meaning the "Door" or "Gate.*^ He was also termed **Nokteh'» the "point," signifying the centre of religious truth. Mirza Alee Mohammed, the "Bab," was Elijah the forerunner of the Kingdom of God.

1844 was the year named by the prophets in which Elijah should appear. It corresponds with the year 1260 of Mohammedan chronology, computed from the Hegira or Plight of Mohammed. The Bab appeared accurately on time, crying to the people of the earth, that the Kingdom of God would shortly be established by " He whom God shall make manifest" Thousands came to hear his teaching.
​

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Miss A.H letters captures on one hand her attraction to the Baha'i Teachings and on the other her confusion and at times distress with the misinformation and basic errors promoted by Kheiralla. The guy is unable to relay basic information accurately or consistently. For example the Bab was born October 20th 1819 and declared to Mulla Husayn on the evening of 22nd May 1844. He would have been 24 years of age at the time, yet the passage above Kheiralla says He is 20 years old when He appeared whereas in the link you shared Kheirella says he is 19 years old. Seriously, the guy can't count and from the little I have read has so many facts wrong I don't know where to begin.

The whole Daniel 8:13-14 prophecy was commonly known among many in America and in the West due to William Millers calculations, so I don't think we have any evidence to support your view that Abdu'l-Baha's source was Kheirella, especially with the vastly different views each had about other aspects of biblical prophecy.