How are these Great Beings explained?

InvestigateTruth · Nov 23, 2017

siti said:
But the real question here is not whether the "ignorant Persian Muslims" (I doubt you'd have got away with suggesting that back there and then) were unaware of Daniels 2300 days prophecy, but whether Baha'u'llah was ignorant of its "proper" Baha'i interpretation. Had this perfect and infallible Manifestation of God forgotten what He had caused to be written about himself?

You seem to have created a dilemma based on hypothetical questioning:

First you began by thinking that the reason the Bab proclaimed His mission in year 1260 AH, which is 1844AD is, because He had learned from Miller that this is the year the Promised One is to appear. Then it shown that, year 1260 AH was calculated based on Muslim Traditions and Scriptures.
Now, you realized this was not the case. So, now you make another hypothetical questioning that perhaps the Bab and Bahaullah did not know the Baha'i interpretation of the Daniel vision.
I said dilemma, because if let's say there was a writing from the Bab and Bahaullah about Daniel Prophecy, then you would take it as evidence They had learned from Miller. And if there is no mention specifically to the Danial vision in Their Writings, you take that as evidence They did not know!
Dear siti, make up your mind! Now, I called it 'hypothetical', because the absence or existence of a direct reference to Daniel vision is not a proof for the dilemma you are arguing.
Now let me give some factual information here, so it may make things more clear for you. I say factual, because I can back it up with evidences that proves it. And that information is this: the Bab and Bahaullah in the early time of their missions declared that 'the End Time' has come to pass.
Now, the vision of Daniel as the Bible states is about the End Time, and Jesus also confirmed it.
Now, it is another hypothetical idea to think that Bahaullah spent very much time with Muslim Scholars, because you cannot back this up with any historical evidence. Because you only had a statement from His aunt, which you cannot even prove to be true or accurate or unbiased, and secondly other than this, you cannot find any great number of encounters of Bahaullah in any valid history books with the presumed scholars, and any details of such hypothetical connections. This is why in Baha'i view these hypothetical questionings is not taken as disproving Bahaullah.
But I do not mean to say, it is not good to investigate, but I only mean, hypothetically without the proper evidences, it only remains at that.

CG Didymus · Nov 23, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
There are a lot of signs of the collapse of modern civilization. Political corruption, moral decay, unemployment, vast expenditures on military, widespread drug addiction, the increasing rate of suicide, alcoholism, ethnic cleansing, mass exodus of refugees. The increase in build up of nuclear weapons, the weakening of religion and racial strife. Also global warming.

These seem more like signs that brought about the fall of the Roman Empire than a Utopia to me which you seem to be describing.

Yeah, it's almost like we're going through the tribulations predicted in the Bible. The ones that happen before Jesus comes back. But that can't be, because we all know The Return of Christ has already happened. He's come and gone and we still don't have peace, just calamities.

CG Didymus · Nov 23, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Tomorrow. Haven't you heard? Oh, and if not tomorrow, the next day, or maybe the day after that. On a better front, I hear Saudi relaxed its embargo. Maybe the Yemeni won't all starve. The western humanitarians will step up to the plate. I wonder if the Baha'i' will help.

Yes, I can't wait for the Baha'is to implement their perfect, religious system of government. I can't wait to be forced to obey their Holy Laws.

Except they keep saying they don't intend to rule the world. They're going to leave it to non-Baha'is? Hmmm? How's that supposed to work again?

Vinayaka · Nov 23, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
It seems to me you are over generalizing.

It seems to me you are overgeneralizing. But that is what Baha'is do, so it's understandable.

Vinayaka · Nov 23, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Yes, I can't wait for the Baha'is to implement their perfect, religious system of government. I can't wait to be forced to obey their Holy Laws.

Except they keep saying they don't intend to rule the world. They're going to leave it to non-Baha'is? Hmmm? How's that supposed to work again?

I say we put women and gays in charge.

CG Didymus · Nov 23, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
And where does in scriptures say, when the Promised One comes, the wars will end immediately?
Moreover, since there is no more 'kingdoms against each other", that proves we are in a different Time. This is the condition that has come to pass.

Hmmm, wars and rumors of wars... But that's not yet the end? Are there still rumors of war? Yes. Therefore, it's not yet the end.

Nations and kingdoms? What do you call the different countries? Does the Bible imply when the Messiah comes He will usher in peace? I think it does, but who believes anything in the Bible is literal anyway?

CG Didymus · Nov 23, 2017

Vinayaka said:
I say we put women and gays in charge.

What do we have to lose? If it doesn't work we can always put grumpy old men back in power.

CG Didymus · Nov 23, 2017

Vinayaka said:
I just knew you were going to say this.

Yeah right, it's easy to say that after the fact. You gotta have proof like the Baha'is have about prophecy. Besides, I knew that you knew and I said it anyway. Let him with ears listen. Do you have ears?

Vinayaka · Nov 23, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Yeah right, it's easy to say that after the fact. You gotta have proof like the Baha'is have about prophecy. Besides, I knew that you knew and I said it anyway. Let him with ears listen. Do you have ears?

You need eyes to see too. And you can't be diseased or suffering from delusions, and you have to be walking towards God, with no superstitions. (God, all this is really hard! I don't know how they do it.)

siti · Nov 23, 2017

adrian009 said:
Ibrahim Kheirella became a covenant breaker as He openly tried to usurp the Abdu'l-Baha as the leader of the Baha'i Faith in the USA. He is not an authorised interpreter of the Baha'i Faith.

But he was the first Millerite Baha'i was he not? He was the first to link Daniel's time prophecies to the appearance of the Bab. Now you are all - quite unashamedly - Millerites based on Abdu'l Baha's later incorporation of Kheiralla's interpretations - which originally included some that are now rejected but Abdu'l Baha previously accepted - to do with the 1335 days and 1917 and various other dates that turned out to be as insignificant in reality as 1844 had been for the Millerite Christians? Yes? So your response implies that God used a 'covenant breaker' (a) to open up the USA to the Baha'i revelation and (b) to provide an interpretation for the only authorized interpreter to adopt - presumably on account of the fact that the Millerite interpretation (although correct) had occurred to neither of the divinely inspired "Great Beings" nor their divinely authorized 'interpreter'. It just seems odd that with all this divine revelation and authorization flying around all over the place, it was left to an unfaithful usurper to get the right answer. Surely God moves in mysterious ways.

oldbadger · Nov 23, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
There are a lot of signs of the collapse of modern civilization.

Modern Civilisation? Civilisations have arisen and collapsed for thousands of years, and it was alright. Mostly every month we watch governments rise up and collapse down. Bahai cannot make any difference to that, because if it would rise up then it would eventually collapse down as well, because of ...............

Political corruption, moral decay,

These conditions exist in humans regardless of what name they write upon their foreheads. If you think that a Bahai World would not fall just like the others, then stick with it, but will the masses listen to you?

unemployment, vast expenditures on military,

IT and robotics are fuelling unemployment and Bahai could not make any difference. and Bahai, in a Bahai World, would expend on equipment for its international police, a huge undertaking.

widespread drug addiction,

Oh please! If the drug laws were repealed, and drugs made available through retail and prescription, the revenues would be so vast as to pay for all hospitals, and would release the police to do some police work because the drug gangs would die away.

the increasing rate of suicide,

Sources! Plus Historic Sources!

alcoholism,

Sources! plus historic Sources!

ethnic cleansing,

Study history. At this time we are doing more to reduce Racial outrages than ever before.

mass exodus of refugees.

Hang on. Europe opened up and allowed thousands to take refuge from war-torn countries. That is not an inhumane act.
Would Bahai have stopped that?

The increase in build up of nuclear weapons,

We have managed to avoid nuclear conflict for 70 years. That is a great success story for the diplomats, none of them Bahai.

the weakening of religion

Religion has not got a good reputation in the West.

and racial strife.

THere has always been intyerracial strife, but reducing in many parts of the World now.

Also global warming.

Bahais have diesel cars as well, anmd enjoy their provision of services. Bahai has no wonder remedy for global warming.

siti · Nov 23, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
You seem to have created a dilemma based on hypothetical questioning:

First you began by thinking that the reason the Bab proclaimed His mission in year 1260 AH, which is 1844AD is, because He had learned from Miller that this is the year the Promised One is to appear. Then it shown that, year 1260 AH was calculated based on Muslim Traditions and Scriptures.
Now, you realized this was not the case. So, now you make another hypothetical questioning that perhaps the Bab and Bahaullah did not know the Baha'i interpretation of the Daniel vision.
I said dilemma, because if let's say there was a writing from the Bab and Bahaullah about Daniel Prophecy, then you would take it as evidence They had learned from Miller. And if there is no mention specifically to the Danial vision in Their Writings, you take that as evidence They did not know!
Dear siti, make up your mind! Now, I called it 'hypothetical', because the absence or existence of a direct reference to Daniel vision is not a proof for the dilemma you are arguing.
Now let me give some factual information here, so it may make things more clear for you. I say factual, because I can back it up with evidences that proves it. And that information is this: the Bab and Bahaullah in the early time of their missions declared that 'the End Time' has come to pass.
Now, the vision of Daniel as the Bible states is about the End Time, and Jesus also confirmed it.
Now, it is another hypothetical idea to think that Bahaullah spent very much time with Muslim Scholars, because you cannot back this up with any historical evidence. Because you only had a statement from His aunt, which you cannot even prove to be true or accurate or unbiased, and secondly other than this, you cannot find any great number of encounters of Bahaullah in any valid history books with the presumed scholars, and any details of such hypothetical connections. This is why in Baha'i view these hypothetical questionings is not taken as disproving Bahaullah.
But I do not mean to say, it is not good to investigate, but I only mean, hypothetically without the proper evidences, it only remains at that.

You really need to brush up on your reading skills IT - it will help you in your investigation of truth - I promise you.

First I never said that the Bab proclaimed his mission in 1844 because he learned that date from Miller - what I said was that followers of the Bab picked up on the failed Millerite expectations because the date coincided with the apparent appearance of the Bab. It turns out that it was about 50 years after the event that the Bab's followers - who had since become Baha'is of course - made this connection. And the connection was made not by either of the divinely inspired Bab or the Manifestation Baha'u'llah or even by the faithful interpreter Abdu'l Baha but by a Lebanese Christian convert who was the first to introduce the Baha'i faith to the US, was absolutely, unquestionably and very clearly documentedly, thoroughly familiar with Millerite eschatology and sought to introduce it into the Baha'i tradition. It was only after the blatant introduction of Millerite ideas by Kheiralla that Abdu'l Baha found inspiration to include "authoritative answers" about this. He accepted the 2300 days 1844 thing because it coincided with 1260 AH and the appearance of the Bab but wavered on some of the future dates (1917 and all that - you guys must know this stuff).

There is no question (now that I have done a bit of reading) that my suspicion was correct and Baha'is simply adopted Miller's explanation and made it fit the Bab even though there was absolutely nothing said about Daniel's prophecy by either of the divinely inspired founders of your faith. That was my original argument and it is now proven. There is nothing 'hypothetical' about it.

InvestigateTruth · Nov 23, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Hmmm, wars and rumors of wars... But that's not yet the end? Are there still rumors of war? Yes. Therefore, it's not yet the end.

Ok, let's read it carefully:

"Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains."

Now, let us ask ourself: what does Jesus mean by ' these are beginning of birth pains'.

He saying, when you see, Kingdom rises against Kingdom, this is the 'Sign' for beginning of Birth pain.
So, what does He mean by ' Birth'? Who is to be born?

Let us find the answer from Scriptures (John 16):

19Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, “Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me’?20Very truly I tell you, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world.22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

So it is now obvious that Jesus is saying when you see the time of 'kingdom against kingdom' is passed, it was just the time of giving Birth. And by Birth He means when He comes again.
Now, since the time of Kingdoms against Kingdom is passed, the Birth must have been very near to that time.
Is not the timeline compatible with the Birth of the Babi and Bahai Revelations? Did not Kingdoms rise against Kingdom in 18 or 19th century?
Now, also, let us refer to the chapter of Revelation, 'the Woman is with a Child'. Are not these the descriptions of the same events? The descriptions of the Time of End, and Return of Christ.
Abdulbaha in Some Answered Question gave a complete interpretation of this Woman who is with Child. It is the birth of the Revelation by Manifestation of the Bab in year Time and Times and half(1260 year)

Nations and kingdoms? What do you call the different countries? Does the Bible imply when the Messiah comes He will usher in peace? I think it does, but who believes anything in the Bible is literal anyway?

You would need to quote from Bible to make this point.

oldbadger · Nov 23, 2017

Vinayaka said:
What's with Australians and New Zealanders when they first get out of bed. Do you guys all have poor sleep, and jump on the forums before breakfast, having gotten up on the wrong side of bed. I noticed this in Tony too. Far less negative by the afternoon. Have some coffee, go for a walk, before you come on the forums all scolding and depressed.

Come on...... be gentle on them, after all, they do get out of bed upside down.....

CG Didymus · Nov 23, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
The thing is we’ve tried the old ways and had two world wars that brought massive destruction and massive loss of life. It wasn’t enough and isn’t enough to stop more nations from going nuclear or using them.

World unity is the only thing we haven’t seriously tried. If it doesn’t work we can always go back to our old ways.

Wasn't the United States a new concept? As opposed to having monarchies? And the idea came before the Great Ones of the Baha'i Faith appeared on the scene. Only problem is that fallible men are in control. Only problem with the Baha'i Faith is that fallible men are expected to bring about peace.

Baha'is will have their divinely given laws, and the rest of the world will be dependent on fallible world leaders to do the right thing.

Unveiled Artist · Nov 23, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Happy Thanksgiving! Is it Thanksgiving where you are isn’t it? I hope you have a lovely day.

Where in the bible does it not mention or excluded the sacraments of christ (batism. repentence. confirmation. communion)?

CG Didymus · Nov 23, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
I think we all want what’s best for everyone.

Idealistically some do, but some want what's best for them and their people. Like Trump doing what's best for America, regardless of what is best for the world. But, even then, he's doing what's best for his political base, regardless of what the rest of the country wants. And, ultimately, he's doing what's best for himself.

CG Didymus · Nov 23, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
Ok, let's read it carefully:

"Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains."

Now, let us ask ourself: what does Jesus mean by ' these are beginning of birth pains'.

He saying, when you see, Kingdom rises against Kingdom, this is the 'Sign' for beginning of Birth pain.
So, what does He mean by ' Birth'? Who is to be born?

Let us find the answer from Scriptures (John 16):

19Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, “Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me’?20Very truly I tell you, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world.22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

So it is now obvious that Jesus is saying when you see the time of 'kingdom against kingdom' is passed, it was just the time of giving Birth. And by Birth He means when He comes again.
Now, since the time of Kingdoms against Kingdom is passed, the Birth must have been very near to that time.
Is not the timeline compatible with the Birth of the Babi and Bahai Revelations? Did not Kingdoms rise against Kingdom in 18 or 19th century?
Now, also, let us refer to the chapter of Revelation, 'the Woman is with a Child'. Are not these the descriptions of the same events? The descriptions of the Time of End, and Return of Christ.
Abdulbaha in Some Answered Question gave a complete interpretation of this Woman who is with Child. It is the birth of the Revelation by Manifestation of the Bab in year Time and Times and half(1260 year)

You would need to quote from Bible to make this point.

Of course you will always find a way to be right. So is their compromise in any of this, or is there only the Baha'i pov?

So sure, the Promised One has come and the world is still filled with wars. You had the Peace statement, did anybody listen or care? Why is the Faith being ignored?

CG Didymus · Nov 23, 2017

oldbadger said:
Come on...... be gentle on them, after all, they do get out of bed upside down.....

We need to hear from Northern Hemisphere Baha'is... And some Baha'i women too.

CG Didymus · Nov 23, 2017

Vinayaka said:
That's true, except that many of us vary on what's best for everyone. Baha'is and other proselytising religions think that what's best is for the entire planet to convert to their way, whereas people like me just want respect in all directions, except no respect for hate. Acceptance, sure, but not respect.

No,no, Satan has tricked everyone. There's only one God, in three parts. That God created Satan, but he created him good. Satan went bad, so God had to kick him out of heaven. God figured Earth would be a good place to send him.

But God in His wisdom sent His only Son to save humanity from Satan, who's been deceiving people and trying to get them to doubt God and Jesus. So what I'm trying to say is what's best for everyone is what I believe at the time, until proven wrong or until I change my mind.

How are these Great Beings explained?

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