"Australians decisively support same-sex marriage"

SkepticThinker · Nov 20, 2017

Deeje said:
Did you not read what I wrote? I never suggested otherwise. I was responding to a point that just because something becomes routine in your life, doesn't make it OK. Some children have not seen the abuse as anything wrong and therefore have not resisted when they were of age to do so. It became a consensual act through conditioning. (not in the majority of cases I hasten to add) We can all have our perceptions about things manipulated by others through appeals to emotion, as I believe we are seeing now with SSM.

If it were just about equality, then I can't see how the word "marriage" makes their relationship any more valid than when they were cohabiting without it. The word "marriage" has never prevented gays from shacking up as far as I know. Introducing your "partner" is common among the population...for the majority, who cares really?

Maybe they would like to have the benefits that come with marriage, that every other married "straight" couple gets to have simply because they're heterosexual. Maybe that's it.

Deeje said:
To Christians though, sex without marriage is a sin. Not only can we not practice it ourselves but we cannot consent to the practice of it by anyone else, regardless of gender. It is not a strictly gay issue as much as it is a Biblical issue for us because the God of the Bible will never recognize it as valid. This is my message to fellow Christians....to those of other faiths, I understand that my views are meaningless.

Christians who feel this way shouldn't marry a person of the same sex then, I guess. I'd venture to guess that gay people as a whole don't want or need your consent to marry the person they love.

Deeje said:
As I said, I have an opinion and I have expressed it to a hostile audience.....I am used to that. I don't need anyone to agree with me. I was pointing out a few things that are of concern to gays as well as to straight people about the follow-on in law......something than many have expressed concerns about. So we will wait and see.

How will they feel if this unleashes other laws that take away the freedom of others to hold to their own beliefs and standards as sacrosanct? The poll conducted (link in a previous post) revealed that most gays would not welcome that outcome.

What sorts of laws do you propose legalizing gay marriage would be "unleashing?" Clearly you still have the freedom to hold your belief that gay marriage is a sin, given that you have expressed that very belief in this thread.

Deeje said:
Will there be a sense of victory for the vigilante gay lobby? (the ugly mob we see protesting, often violently)

"Ugly mob we see protesting, often violently?" To what/whom are you referring??

Deeje said:
Is it freedom to do as you please regardless of the cost to others? Time will tell, won't it?

What cost to others? What are you referring to?

Deeje said:
I wasn't twisting anything....people saw the word "pedophilia" and immediately jumped to the wrong conclusion in 'gold medal' fashion.

I've seen this sadly veiled attempt to compare pedophilia to homosexuality over and over from some religious folks. Unfortunately, it's nothing new.

Deeje said:
I was using it as an example of something being acceptable but still harmful. When abused children reach adulthood they then have choices about what is and what is not acceptable, yet often go on to become abusers themselves. If you have grown up with an incestuous parent or sibling, then those lines can be blurred by familiarity and misplaced loyalty. The flesh is weak and will justify anything to satisfy itself. That is what the Bible teaches.....and that is what I observe.

It seems to be a terrible comparison.

Revoltingest · Nov 20, 2017

Deeje said:
I guess my main bone of contention is the propaganda surrounding the whole issue. It looks as if the gay agenda is being pushed so hard that it is influencing people to accept, what would normally have been unacceptable to them before exposure to this constant barrage from the media.

What makes something "propaganda", as opposed to mere advocacy?
How is Xian advocacy against gay rights different, ie, not propaganda?

SkepticThinker · Nov 20, 2017

Deeje said:
I could not in all conscience attend a gay wedding. I would respectfully decline if they invited me, (which would probably not happen as they know my position.) I have no issue with the people themselves....we have a cordial relationship as family members, but they know I have religious issues with their lifestyle. If any members of my family were not married, but living as if they were, I would still feel uncomfortable in their home.

If it was a family function, (like an anniversary) not at their home, I would probably attend but would decline a specific invitation to their house. They respect my views and I respect their right to live as they choose.

Do you want more than that?

See, I don't get this.
Why not just love, respect and enjoy time with your family members during your short time on this Earth and just leave the judging up to God?

columbus · Nov 20, 2017

Deeje said:
This article may explain some concerns....

"LGBTIQ Aussies have worries about gay marriage too...

....their support for changing the Marriage Act plummets if the proposal is used as a “stalking horse” to deliver a hidden agenda which attacks other Australian traditions and democratic freedoms.

A staggering 92 per cent would vote “No” or boycott the ballot if the proposed change to the Marriage Act “has not been thought through properly in terms of all of its consequences for the majority of Australians”.

More than two thirds believe that the public has the right to see the exact wording of the Bill before voting on it."

LGBTIQ Aussies have worries about gay marriage too
What did Aussies think they were voting for? I really don't think they know.

Its not really about "marriage equality" for us....its about how the laws will change as a result of this one, as has happened in Canada. How far will it go? Time will tell if the concerns become reality.

Here in the USA we do things differently. If the politicians want a law passed by voters they write a proposition, a proposed law, and put it to a vote. California is kinda famous for it. People will vote for fiscal insanity if you put the tax cuts into different proposals from the spending increases, because a majority of people favor both.

Nothing in that article supports your post or the headline of the article. There probably are Australians who have a problem with marriage equality, but the authors couldn't find any. People had a problem with a vague process, lacking transparency, where they were expected to vote on law without knowing what the law is. People had a problem with marriage as a concept, referring to it as "patriarchal" . People said that they personally didn't want to get married. People had a problem with multiple marriage and age of consent. But none of that has anything at all to do with marriage equality.

"LGBTIQ Aussies have worries about gay marriage too...

Click to expand...

is not true, based on the article you quoted.

That's the worst kind of propaganda. Produce facts, then misrepresent them so blatantly and completely that people who want to believe something don't even notice.
Tom

ETA~ Misrepresenting facts in order to get your way at the expense of others is what I mean by "lying".~

Shadow Wolf · Nov 21, 2017

Deeje said:
That is the stance that most people take in this day and age....but it is certainly a major shift away from what used to be accepted as common standards of decency. Decency has all but disappeared and I personally don't think it has made the world a better place. It is eroding family values and the fabric of society is interwoven with those values. The mighty Roman Empire fell due to the same forces that permeate our society too. Materialism, couple with a complete breakdown in morality. It was conquered by its own hedonistic choices. We never learn the lessons from the past and are therefore doomed to repeat their mistakes.

It used to be very indecent for a white person and black person to date (and still strongly frowned upon in some areas). Used to be that a woman in the workplace, save for few positions, was indecent (and some, mostly older people, take issue with having a female supervisor). It used to be indecent to say a woman was pregnant, and rather it was said she was "with child."
And you may want to reread your history books. The fall of Rome was over many reasons, it was far more complicated than that, and it's worse than a strawman to try use same-sex marriage in the same context.

The Emperor of Mankind · Nov 21, 2017

Deeje said:
I wasn't trying to.....I was reinforcing the point that just because something is consensual, doesn't mean its not harmful. I wasn't using pedophilia as being on the same level as homosexual sex. I was concentrating on what you said about something being consensual and not harming anyone.

You're still in error because children cannot consent. On the subject of paedophilia, your organisation, which is virulently homophobic, has a tendency to protect and hide paedophiles to the point where their victims are often subject to ostracism by their families after being shunned for leaving a religious group that either refuses to, or is incapable of, protect them.

That is the stance that most people take in this day and age....but it is certainly a major shift away from what used to be accepted as common standards of decency. Decency has all but disappeared and I personally don't think it has made the world a better place. It is eroding family values and the fabric of society is interwoven with those values. The mighty Roman Empire fell due to the same forces that permeate our society too. Materialism, couple with a complete breakdown in morality. It was conquered by its own hedonistic choices. We never learn the lessons from the past and are therefore doomed to repeat their mistakes.

The Western Roman Empire collapsed due to political instability, an over-bloated, expensive, ineffective & corrupt bureaucracy and the inability of its military to maintain law & order inside its borders. If we're going to start blaming moral & religious influences over the WRE's fall, it's worth pointing out that it fell while it was a Christian empire. The Romans stopped maintaining the Pax Deorum and less than a century after worship of the Roman pantheon was outlawed the Eternal City was sacked by barbarians, causing the Empire to collapse.

Can you imagine in years to come, someone trying to trace their ancestors on a family tree? What a nightmare!
The register of "Births Deaths and Marriages" will be awash with names and relationships that are so convoluted that kids will lose all sense of who they are...if they haven't already.

Strange that you seem to show more concern for these future children who will be subject to this strange scenario of yours - as if people will give less of a **** about their genealogy to the point where apparently nobody bothers to keep records of anything any more - but seem less concerned about the kids who grew up being abused by members of the Jehovah's Witnesses and found it difficult to speak out or prove their accusations because of the way the Church investigates things.

The Emperor of Mankind · Nov 21, 2017

Deeje said:
This is as it should be. Everyone has choices but they should be informed ones surely? Does hearing both sides do anyone any harm? Isn't that what creates balance and helps people to see what's at stake?

It can cause harm when people are given the false impression that differing opinions hold the same intellectual, moral or ethical weight when in fact they do not. Homophobia is a very good example of this; creationism is another.

The bottom line is:

if you don't want to participate in a same sex marriage - don't.
if you don't want to view a same sex marriage as legally valid - don't. Neither your opinion nor your religious beliefs hold any legal or moral weight.

It's about time marriage equality was introduced in Australia. I'm sick to the back teeth of Christians monopolising the legal definition of something neither they nor their religion invented. It's not yours to define. Hands off!

The Emperor of Mankind · Nov 21, 2017

Deeje said:
This will never sit well with those who hold to the Bible's standards. Marriage is defined in scripture as between a man and a woman.

Marriage is defined in scripture as between a man and a woman who are already blood relations e.g. Adam & Eve. Why aren't you campaigning for incestuous marriage?

They should call it something else instead of trying to dictate their own standards to what God has instituted. It will never have his approval despite what humans think.

Your beliefs should not affect the legal rights non-Christians are able to enjoy. And no, there is no reason to assume your dogma has any objective basis in reality so there is no reason to assume your god had any say in the institution of marriage - especially since it existed as a social concept before your god was first worshipped.

You would no doubt dislike it if law recognised marriage as being between a man and a woman in the sight of many gods as that would be forcing you to observe a religious belief other than your own.

Deeje · Nov 21, 2017

Because there has been so much carry on about my opinion on this subject, let me just clarify for y'all that it is only my OPINION....one based on my faith in God's unalterable word. You are free to reject that.

I have not voted in any political way to condone or to outlaw what people do in the privacy of their own lives.
But when they try to force me to condone what I clearly will never do, I will voice my opinion for what its worth....which is what? Nothing...right?

I was merely stating what I personally think about this issue because quite frankly we are sick to death of hearing about it. Almost half of the people in Australia did not even vote. What does that tell you? Most of us were not interested.

So what is all this vehement backlash supposed to accomplish? To shut down a lone voice? Seriously people, ask yourselves why a single dissenting voice sends y'all into a frenzy? How dare I not agree? Really? In a free country, isn't freedom of speech something that was fought for....something to be valued? Listen to yourselves.

You will never achieve what you want until all those who hold to Bible principles cease to breathe, or until the one who Created us changes his mind on this issue.....which will be never. End of story. You can't force people to accept what is unacceptable to them....especially morally.

I have nothing further to say.

Jesster · Nov 21, 2017

Seeing how this is in a debate section, I don't see what's wrong with debating an opinion. You're free to speak, but so is everyone who disagrees with you. You could stop responding or put people on ignore if it bothers you that much.

Deeje · Nov 21, 2017

Jesster said:
You could stop responding

I thought I already did....

ImmortalFlame · Nov 22, 2017

Deeje said:
I have not voted in any political way to condone or to outlaw what people do in the privacy of their own lives.

But you actively discourage people from granting homosexuals the right to marry.

Deeje said:
But when they try to force me to condone what I clearly will never do, I will voice my opinion for what its worth....which is what? Nothing...right?

So you think the right to express your opinion ends with you? You're allowed to express your opinion, but others disagreeing with you and refuting your arguments is somehow an attack on you personally?

Stop playing the victim, Deeje.

Deeje said:
I was merely stating what I personally think about this issue because quite frankly we are sick to death of hearing about it. Almost half of the people in Australia did not even vote. What does that tell you? Most of us were not interested.

So, in your mind "almost half" translates to "most of us"?

Think about that for two seconds.

Deeje said:
So what is all this vehement backlash supposed to accomplish? To shut down a lone voice?

Once again, playing the victim card. "I'm allowed to express my opinion but other people expressing their opinion of my opinion is too mean".

Deeje said:
Seriously people, ask yourselves why a single dissenting voice sends y'all into a frenzy?

It doesn't. It's called disagreement.

Deeje said:
How dare I not agree? Really? In a free country, isn't freedom of speech something that was fought for....something to be valued? Listen to yourselves.

Nobody has said you don't have the right to disagree - their argument is with your incredibly poor reasoning and your position on denying rights to others.

Deeje said:
You will never achieve what you want until all those who hold to Bible principles cease to breathe, or until the one who Created us changes his mind on this issue.....which will be never. End of story. You can't force people to accept what is unacceptable to them....especially morally.

Once again, playing the victim.

Do you honestly think you have the right to never be questioned or challenged? How entitled are you?

Deeje said:
I have nothing further to say.

You had nothing to say from the start.

Kangaroo Feathers · Nov 22, 2017

Deeje said:
Can you imagine in years to come, someone trying to trace their ancestors on a family tree? What a nightmare!
The register of "Births Deaths and Marriages" will be awash with names and relationships that are so convoluted that kids will lose all sense of who they are...if they haven't already.

Thank goodness adoption and single parents aren't things that exist!

SkepticThinker · Nov 22, 2017

Deeje said:
Because there has been so much carry on about my opinion on this subject, let me just clarify for y'all that it is only my OPINION....one based on my faith in God's unalterable word. You are free to reject that.

I have not voted in any political way to condone or to outlaw what people do in the privacy of their own lives.
But when they try to force me to condone what I clearly will never do, I will voice my opinion for what its worth....which is what? Nothing...right?

I was merely stating what I personally think about this issue because quite frankly we are sick to death of hearing about it. Almost half of the people in Australia did not even vote. What does that tell you? Most of us were not interested.

So what is all this vehement backlash supposed to accomplish? To shut down a lone voice? Seriously people, ask yourselves why a single dissenting voice sends y'all into a frenzy? How dare I not agree? Really? In a free country, isn't freedom of speech something that was fought for....something to be valued? Listen to yourselves.

You will never achieve what you want until all those who hold to Bible principles cease to breathe, or until the one who Created us changes his mind on this issue.....which will be never. End of story. You can't force people to accept what is unacceptable to them....especially morally.

I have nothing further to say.

This is a debate forum, so people debate issues here. That requires a back and forth between people holding differing opinions.

You're not being persecuted, rather, you're views are being discussed and debated.

This is how issues get hashed out. Do you know of a better way to hash out issues other than to have open discussion about them?

Revoltingest · Nov 22, 2017

Interesting....
Australiastan is becoming as progressive as Alabama.

Shadow Wolf · Nov 22, 2017

Revoltingest said:
Interesting....
Australiastan is becoming as progressive as Alabama.

These past few years, I've constantly pretty much assumed that surely Australia legalized same-sex marriage. America did, after all, and it is known as the Bible Thumping nation. And then I'm reminded that there is an instance where even still in modern America we had bragging rights over those less civilized savages down under.

The Emperor of Mankind · Nov 22, 2017

Revoltingest said:
Interesting....
Australiastan is becoming as progressive as Alabama.

I think you might have spelled 'Alabama' incorrectly

lewisnotmiller · Dec 7, 2017

Shadow Wolf said:
These past few years, I've constantly pretty much assumed that surely Australia legalized same-sex marriage. America did, after all, and it is known as the Bible Thumping nation. And then I'm reminded that there is an instance where even still in modern America we had bragging rights over those less civilized savages down under.

I'm glad it passed, but the whole process was a complete frigging waste of money and time, and caused considerable stress for some folks.
120 million bucks to hold a survey which told us exactly what we already knew (majority favour giving people equal rights to marriage), and give our politicians the ability to say 'We gave everyone the chance to have their say', and provide protection from being seen as offering any real leadership on the issue. Idiots.
Let's have a vote on whether aboriginals should have the vote. Then we'll know how the nation really feels about it.

Both sides of the political spectrum here completely dropped the ball on this. Glad it's over, but pretty sure that money could have been used for something better. it's hard to imagine it could have been wasted any more egregiously.

sayak83 · Dec 7, 2017

Deeje said:
Because there has been so much carry on about my opinion on this subject, let me just clarify for y'all that it is only my OPINION....one based on my faith in God's unalterable word. You are free to reject that.

I have not voted in any political way to condone or to outlaw what people do in the privacy of their own lives.
But when they try to force me to condone what I clearly will never do, I will voice my opinion for what its worth....which is what? Nothing...right?

I was merely stating what I personally think about this issue because quite frankly we are sick to death of hearing about it. Almost half of the people in Australia did not even vote. What does that tell you? Most of us were not interested.

So what is all this vehement backlash supposed to accomplish? To shut down a lone voice? Seriously people, ask yourselves why a single dissenting voice sends y'all into a frenzy? How dare I not agree? Really? In a free country, isn't freedom of speech something that was fought for....something to be valued? Listen to yourselves.

You will never achieve what you want until all those who hold to Bible principles cease to breathe, or until the one who Created us changes his mind on this issue.....which will be never. End of story. You can't force people to accept what is unacceptable to them....especially morally.

I have nothing further to say.

80% of Australians voted.

Why Australia's vote for gay marriage was no surprise

More than 12.7 million people - about 79.5% of eligible voters - took part in the eight-week poll, which asked one question: "Should the marriage law be changed to allow same-sex couples to marry?"

80% response in any voluntary survey, let alone an optional non-binding one, is very big deal. For example, the far more significant Brexit referendum turnout was mere 72%.

Your continued distortion of facts is what irks most people here. You have a right to opinion but not to distortion of facts. After all, how principled can you be if you repeatedly try to inject blatant falsehoods in your reply? Are you a JW leader in your church organization? I am concerned about how you may be misleading people who trust your authority of this is the case.

Subduction Zone · Dec 7, 2017

lewisnotmiller said:
I'm glad it passed, but the whole process was a complete frigging waste of money and time, and caused considerable stress for some folks.
120 million bucks to hold a survey which told us exactly what we already knew (majority favour giving people equal rights to marriage), and give our politicians the ability to say 'We gave everyone the chance to have their say', and provide protection from being seen as offering any real leadership on the issue. Idiots.
Let's have a vote on whether aboriginals should have the vote. Then we'll know how the nation really feels about it.

Both sides of the political spectrum here completely dropped the ball on this. Glad it's over, but pretty sure that money could have been used for something better. it's hard to imagine it could have been wasted any more egregiously.

People feel better if they "have a say". The religious right would be against it no matter what, but at least now they can't claim it was rammed down their throats. Here in the U.S. the Supreme Court made the obvious decision. As a result we still hear about "activist unelected officials" changing policy. We would have eventually made it legal, but with quite a few of our states still in the stone age it may have taken a while.

"Australians decisively support same-sex marriage"

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