We are saved by good works

12jtartar said:

Remember, the wages sin pays is death, Romans 6:23, so when a person dies, he has paid the ultimate price for his sin. He is not punished again for his sins, of his past life, Romans 6:7.

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Romans 6:7 (ESV Strong's) 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Please explain how you can take those 11 words out of 3 paragraphs and say they refer to a physical death when the rest is referring to death by baptism?


Romans 6:2 (ESV Strong's) 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:3-4 (ESV Strong's) 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Romans 6:7 (ESV Strong's) 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Romans 6:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

Romans 6:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I know witnesses believe that baptism is putting to DEATH the old worldly self, that's what verse 7 is referring to, not a physical death, death by baptism into Jesus' death.


For the life of me, I can't understand how witnesses get Romans 6:23 so screwed up.

This is what you said,

"Remember, the wages sin pays is death, Romans 6:23, so when a person dies, he has paid the ultimate price for his sin."

You don't see anything wrong with that comment, do you?

You said the wage sin PAYS is death, the you said, when a person dies he has PAID the price for sin.

If sin PAYS the wage of death, when someone dies in their sin, they have RECEIVED the wage of sin, they don't PAY the wage by their death.

12jtartar said:

Now, we know that people are only Judged by what they do in that new system, because Jesus died to take away sins of the former life,

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Jesus died to take away the SIN of the world, the inherent sin from Adam.

If we pay the wage of our sins when we die, how could Jesus have said,

John 8:24 (ESV Strong's) 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

If we are acquitted of our sins when we die, those words have no meaning at all. So what if they die in their sins if they are acquitted when they die?

PopeADope said:

I've just shown you where in scripture it says we are judged and saved by our works, and that faith without works is dead.

This is the problem with scripture, two people can wind up with opposite beliefs and both of them have scripture to back it up... Why does the bible contradict itself?

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I believe there is no contradiction but I can see why a person who doesn't understand scripture might think so.

I believe that is not the same thing as what you said.

PopeADope said:

Matthew 25
41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, 42into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


They were damned because of the good works they failed to do!

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I believe the jist of it is that the works were not done because there was a lack of faith in Jesus. However if it were a matter of never having done anything good, it would be a very short list but the list of those who haven't done things because they didn't have faith in Jesus is a lot bigger list. So for the saved even a meager act is sufficient but for the unsaved they never can do enough.

djhwoodwerks said:

Romans 6:7 (ESV Strong's) 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Please explain how you can take those 11 words out of 3 paragraphs and say they refer to a physical death when the rest is referring to death by baptism?


Romans 6:2 (ESV Strong's) 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:3-4 (ESV Strong's) 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Romans 6:7 (ESV Strong's) 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Romans 6:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

Romans 6:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I know witnesses believe that baptism is putting to DEATH the old worldly self, that's what verse 7 is referring to, not a physical death, death by baptism into Jesus' death.


For the life of me, I can't understand how witnesses get Romans 6:23 so screwed up.

This is what you said,

"Remember, the wages sin pays is death, Romans 6:23, so when a person dies, he has paid the ultimate price for his sin."

You don't see anything wrong with that comment, do you?

You said the wage sin PAYS is death, the you said, when a person dies he has PAID the price for sin.

If sin PAYS the wage of death, when someone dies in their sin, they have RECEIVED the wage of sin, they don't PAY the wage by their death.

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djhwoodwerks,
If something so simple as Romans 6:7 is beyond your understanding, you must be one of the wise and intellectual ones that Jesus spoke about, Luke 10:21. I hope not!!
I will try one more time to explain Romans 6:23. The wages sin pays is death. First Wages, is what you receive when you work. Next sin pays the wages, because, as we all know, sin leads to death, James 1:14,15. So when a person dies, he has paid for his sin. The last of this verse shows, exactly what is being discussed, Death, or Eternal Life, death because of sins, but the free gift of
Life, because Jesus died as a Ransom Sacrifice for our sins. By Jesus’s death, we have the chance to be resurrected, because Jesus paid for our sins. If Jesus had not died for our sins, we would remain in the grave! We would have paid the ultimate price for our sins, so there could be no punishment, we would just stay dead. Jesus’ death took away sin, so we can live again.
Read Romans 6:23 over again, this is not hard to understand, except for the ones Jesus mentioned, Luke 10:21, 8:11-15, Daniel 12:10, Isaiah 26:10, Acts 13:41.
Please do these, James 1:5-8, 1Corinthians 2:10-16.
Agape!!!

12jtartar said:

If something so simple as Romans 6:7 is beyond your understanding,

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It is a very simple verse, and you have had to have help to misunderstand it! You have it all right, until you change one word, with the help of your, "imperfect, fallible, spirit led slave", here is what you say,

12jtartar said:

I will try one more time to explain Romans 6:23. The wages sin pays is death. First Wages, is what you receive when you work. Next sin pays the wages, because, as we all know, sin leads to death, James 1:14,15. So when a person dies, he has paid for his sin.

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And it is mostly correct, the wages of sin is death, wages are what you receive when you work, sin pays the wage because sin leads to death, that is all correct. But then you say, "So when a person dies, he has paid for his sin", do you see how that doesn't add up to the rest of what you said? Do you see the one small word you used to change the meaning of that verse? Let's recap, you have said,

The wage sin PAYS is death
Wages is what you RECEIVE when you work
Sin PAYS the wages because...sin LEADS to death

All that is correct, but then you say,

So, when a person dies, he HAS paid for his sins.

Do you see where you have changed a word and are being deceived and deceiving others? Your last comment should read like this,

So, when a person dies, he IS paid for his sins. Do you understand that now? If the wage sin PAYS is death, and wages are what we RECEIVE when we work, when someone dies, he IS paid for his sins, not HAS paid.

12jtartar said:

Life, because Jesus died as a Ransom Sacrifice for our sins. By Jesus’s death, we have the chance to be resurrected, because Jesus paid for our sins.

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12jtartar said:

So when a person dies, he has paid for his sin.

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Do you believe God requires TWO payments for sin?

djhwoodwerks said:

It is a very simple verse, and you have had to have help to misunderstand it! You have it all right, until you change one word, with the help of your, "imperfect, fallible, spirit led slave", here is what you say,



And it is mostly correct, the wages of sin is death, wages are what you receive when you work, sin pays the wage because sin leads to death, that is all correct. But then you say, "So when a person dies, he has paid for his sin", do you see how that doesn't add up to the rest of what you said? Do you see the one small word you used to change the meaning of that verse? Let's recap, you have said,

The wage sin PAYS is death
Wages is what you RECEIVE when you work
Sin PAYS the wages because...sin LEADS to death

All that is correct, but then you say,

So, when a person dies, he HAS paid for his sins.

Do you see where you have changed a word and are being deceived and deceiving others? Your last comment should read like this,

So, when a person dies, he IS paid for his sins. Do you understand that now? If the wage sin PAYS is death, and wages are what we RECEIVE when we work, when someone dies, he IS paid for his sins, not HAS paid.






Do you believe God requires TWO payments for sin?

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djhwoodwerks,
Where I said that sin pays, to be even more clear I should have said that YOUR sins pays the wages, so it is your sin that is paid at your death.
Two more important points: When you die, since you have paid the ultimate price for the sins that you have committed, Romans 6:7. So at that time you are even with God, your wages are paid, but that just leaves you dead, in the grave. Jesus died for us so that we will be resurrected back from death, 1Timothy 2:4-6, 2Corinthians 5:14,15, Hebrews 2:9. Notice, in these Scriptures they say that Jesus died for all men, the ones that have died, and also for the ones that will be alive when Jesus comes back to earth. When Jesus comes back no person will die after that time for the sins that they committed, so these have a chance to, never die, because Jesus already paid the price sins paid, Death.
I can’t understand why this concept is hard for you to understand, why even babes cab understand God’s word when explained to them, Luke 10:21. To understand God’s word you must pray for His Holy Spirit, 1Corinthians 2:10. And you must be humble like a child, not holding to beliefs that do not harmonize withe the entire Bible, Intertextuality is true, all Scripture is related to all Scripture. The Bible is Univocal, it tells ONE truth throughout.
When Jesus comes, all of his people will live through the Great Tribulation, Revelation 7:14. These already know about God’s purpose, but many of the ones that will be resurrected will not know much, if anything about God’s purpose, many of which will be the unrighteous the Bible tells about, Acts 24:15.
The Bible is very logical, everything fits, but if a person does not start his learning on a good and true foundation, it becomes very hard to understand God’s word, because, as you read, you will find things that don’t seem to fit.
Make sure that you are not like the ones mentioned at Acts 13:41, Matthew 13:13-15. If you are sincere God will help you to understand all His purpose. Agape!!!

12jtartar said:

I can’t understand why this concept is hard for you to understand

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Ok, let's see why your concept makes no sense!

You say, SIN PAYS the wages of death, my sin, your sin, PAYS the wages of death.

12jtartar said:

Where I said that sin pays, to be even more clear I should have said that YOUR sins pays the wages

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I accept that, SIN pays the wages of death. Then you say, "when you die, YOU have PAID the ultimate price for sin".

12jtartar said:

When you die, since you have paid the ultimate price for the sins that you have committed,

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Tell me, how can that be? How can SIN PAY the wage and when you die YOU PAY the price? It doesn't make sense! There's no RECEIVING it's all payment.

Say I work for a company called, Sun In Tubes/SIN, I work there for a few years, SIN has paid my wage for those years, then I decide to quit/die, Sin PAYS me what I am due at that time, I have paid nothing.

Same way with our SINS, if we die in our sins, we RECEIVE the wages sin paid.

And, the wages of sin isn't physical death, because everyone dies, sinner and saint, we all die! The death sin pays is eternal separation from God, NOT physical death.

If a sinners death makes them "even with God", why are good resurrected to life and the "EVIL" resurrected to judgment?

John 5:28-29 (ESV Strong's) 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

djhwoodwerks said:

Jesus died to take away the SIN of the world, the inherent sin from Adam.

If we pay the wage of our sins when we die, how could Jesus have said,

John 8:24 (ESV Strong's) 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

If we are acquitted of our sins when we die, those words have no meaning at all. So what if they die in their sins if they are acquitted when they die?

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It's a perspective. Adam and Eve "transgressed". Went beyond the "limits of".

"But what they call the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is the Epinoia of the light, they stayed in front of it in order that he (Adam) might not look up to his fullness and recognize the nakedness of his shamefulness. But it was I who brought about that they ate."- Secret John.

Eve, then Adam, received the spirit of the "true God", as they had only been created like the animals (flesh and soul only). The spirit obtained by them made them "alive with the spirit" through the knowledge (gnosis) they were given. They were never immortal (as the liar tried to convince them). If they were, why did they have to eat anything?

Paul, knew this:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The OT confuses the makeup of man. Flesh, Soul, Mind and Spirit.

The JW idea holds no value to flesh, but what about the soul?

Matthew:
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

To maintain that the flesh pays all sin is reckless thinking from a spiritual perspective.

Gospel of Thomas:
03) Jesus says:
(1) "If those who lead you say to you: ‘Look, the kingdom is in the sky!’
then the birds of the sky will precede you.
(2) If they say to you: ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fishes will precede you.
(3) Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and outside of you."
(4) "When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known,
and you will realize that you are the children of the living Father.
(5) But if you do not come to know yourselves, then you exist in poverty, and you are poverty."

Luke 17:
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


If you don't know yourself (as the Father knows you), how can you know the Father?

The flesh profits nothing:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So what are we left with that profits us?

Gospel of Mary:
9) Blessed are you that you did not waver at the sight of Me. For where the mind is there is the treasure.
10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?
11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision

Jesus said:
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.- Matthew

The OT says:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.- Deut.

See a difference?

djhwoodwerks said:

Ok, let's see why your concept makes no sense!

You say, SIN PAYS the wages of death, my sin, your sin, PAYS the wages of death.



I accept that, SIN pays the wages of death. Then you say, "when you die, YOU have PAID the ultimate price for sin".



Tell me, how can that be? How can SIN PAY the wage and when you die YOU PAY the price? It doesn't make sense! There's no RECEIVING it's all payment.

Say I work for a company called, Sun In Tubes/SIN, I work there for a few years, SIN has paid my wage for those years, then I decide to quit/die, Sin PAYS me what I am due at that time, I have paid nothing.

Same way with our SINS, if we die in our sins, we RECEIVE the wages sin paid.

And, the wages of sin isn't physical death, because everyone dies, sinner and saint, we all die! The death sin pays is eternal separation from God, NOT physical death.

If a sinners death makes them "even with God", why are good resurrected to life and the "EVIL" resurrected to judgment?

John 5:28-29 (ESV Strong's) 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

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djhwoodwerks,
You have brought up a good point. There are actually two kinds of death, one is the Greek word Hades, which is the common grave of most of mankind. There is another death, Jesus mentioned, Gehenna, Matthew 5:22, 18:8,9, Mark 9:43-48. As these Scriptures say, this is a symbol for everlasting death, the same as mentioned at Revelation 20:13-15. This Lake of Fire is the symbol for the death that no one will be resurrected from. Hades is the common grave that most people who have died are in awaiting a resurrection, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15. The Lake of Fire and Sulfur is also called The Second Death, because if a person is deemed by God to be too evil for a resurrection, they go straight into the Second Death, and if a resurrected one, just will not make progress and God finds that he is beyond help, he will go to the Second Death. The Holy ones, the Anointed ones who have the First Resurrection, cannot be harmed by the Second Death, because they will be resurrected to heaven, to be Kings and Priests over the people who will live forever on earth,and given Immortality, 1Corinthians 15:50-54, Revelation 2:11, 20:4-6.
Under the Mosaic Law Covenant, when you sinned the payment you paid was stipulated, usually an animal, bull or goat. This kept them from having the sentence of death from being carried out, this was looking forward to the time that Jesus would come to earth and give his life for all that would put their faith in him. The Law was; sin and pay the price, which was Death, Romans 6:23. Under The New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death, a person could be saved from death by Faith in Jesus Ransom Sacrifice, Luke 22:14-20, 1Corinthians 11:23-26.That is what is meant by the last part of Romans 6:23. The Mosaic Law Covenant was a Law of Works, the New Covenant is based on Faith, not Works. One of the reasons the Jesus came to earth was to remove the Mosaic Law Covenant, because everyone under it was under the curse of death, Galatians 3:7-14, Hebrews 8:6-13, Acts 13:37-39. Agape!!!

12jtartar said:

djhwoodwerks,
You have brought up a good point. There are actually two kinds of death, one is the Greek word Hades, which is the common grave of most of mankind. There is another death, Jesus mentioned, Gehenna, Matthew 5:22, 18:8,9, Mark 9:43-48. As these Scriptures say, this is a symbol for everlasting death, the same as mentioned at Revelation 20:13-15. This Lake of Fire is the symbol for the death that no one will be resurrected from. Hades is the common grave that most people who have died are in awaiting a resurrection, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15. The Lake of Fire and Sulfur is also called The Second Death, because if a person is deemed by God to be too evil for a resurrection, they go straight into the Second Death, and if a resurrected one, just will not make progress and God finds that he is beyond help, he will go to the Second Death. The Holy ones, the Anointed ones who have the First Resurrection, cannot be harmed by the Second Death, because they will be resurrected to heaven, to be Kings and Priests over the people who will live forever on earth,and given Immortality, 1Corinthians 15:50-54, Revelation 2:11, 20:4-6.
Under the Mosaic Law Covenant, when you sinned the payment you paid was stipulated, usually an animal, bull or goat. This kept them from having the sentence of death from being carried out, this was looking forward to the time that Jesus would come to earth and give his life for all that would put their faith in him. The Law was; sin and pay the price, which was Death, Romans 6:23. Under The New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death, a person could be saved from death by Faith in Jesus Ransom Sacrifice, Luke 22:14-20, 1Corinthians 11:23-26.That is what is meant by the last part of Romans 6:23. The Mosaic Law Covenant was a Law of Works, the New Covenant is based on Faith, not Works. One of the reasons the Jesus came to earth was to remove the Mosaic Law Covenant, because everyone under it was under the curse of death, Galatians 3:7-14, Hebrews 8:6-13, Acts 13:37-39. Agape!!!

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A good point. Death is what Jesus told us to embrace, rather than fear. We gain life through death. Most don't understand.

When Peter tried to exclaim that death was far from Jesus, Jesus repudiated him calling him "Satan" through his ignorance. The Secret book of James says:
And I answered and said to him: "Lord, do not mention to us the cross and the death, for they are far from you."
The Lord answered and said: "Truly I say to you, none will be saved unless they believe in my cross. But those who have believed in my cross, theirs is the Kingdom of God. Therefore, become seekers for death, just as the dead who seek for life, for that which they seek is revealed to them. And what is there to concern them? When you turn yourselves towards death, it will make known to you election. In truth I say to you, none of those who are afraid of death will be saved. For the Kingdom of God belongs to those who have put themselves to death. Become better than I; make yourselves like the son of the Holy Spirit."

Without the "hidden knowledge" (1 Corinthians 2:7), the orthodox idea prevails in the minds of men, and the church controls their thought.

Those who live in Revelations, live through fear. I removed that book long ago, because the (orthodox) church uses it as a stick to the carrot.

Phantasman said:

A good point. Death is what Jesus told us to embrace, rather than fear. We gain life through death. Most don't understand.

When Peter tried to exclaim that death was far from Jesus, Jesus repudiated him calling him "Satan" through his ignorance. The Secret book of James says:
And I answered and said to him: "Lord, do not mention to us the cross and the death, for they are far from you."
The Lord answered and said: "Truly I say to you, none will be saved unless they believe in my cross. But those who have believed in my cross, theirs is the Kingdom of God. Therefore, become seekers for death, just as the dead who seek for life, for that which they seek is revealed to them. And what is there to concern them? When you turn yourselves towards death, it will make known to you election. In truth I say to you, none of those who are afraid of death will be saved. For the Kingdom of God belongs to those who have put themselves to death. Become better than I; make yourselves like the son of the Holy Spirit."

Without the "hidden knowledge" (1 Corinthians 2:7), the orthodox idea prevails in the minds of men, and the church controls their thought.

Those who live in Revelations, live through fear. I removed that book long ago, because the (orthodox) church uses it as a stick to the carrot.

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I believe this not the death of the body nor of the spirit but of the ego. So it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me.

Muffled said:

I believe this not the death of the body nor of the spirit but of the ego. So it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me.

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I agree, as long as it isn't the flesh that one see's as the "body". The(spiritual term) circumcision used is to separate the flesh (physical) from the spiritual.

Paul says:

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:


The flesh and body are two different things. Christ said the the "flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63), yet he said to "eat his flesh" (which profits US).

Gnosis teaches:
Some are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing.- Gospel of Philip

We see how the word flesh is used as a parable by Christ, because he spoke spirit.

Now Paul makes sense when he says:

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Though "flesh" is used two times, they have separate meanings. The flesh that covers the physical body, and the flesh that spoke the words of God. It is why the Jews were confused when they heard Christ say to "eat my flesh". Ignorance, because they followed the ways of the flesh (which their law and rituals were based). Todays orthodox have returned to the same way, physical rituals through spiritual ignorance.

PopeADope said:

Revelation 20:12 ►

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Why does God need books? I thought he said he would forgive us our sins and forget about them?

Matthew 25
41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, 42into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Romans 2:6
He will judge everyone according to what they have done.

James 2:17
So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

So we are clearly judged by our works.

Revelation 20:15 ►
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

God is a bookkeeper

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The works of man condemn him. It's my understanding that Jesus saves.

Muffled said:

I believe being judged is not the same thing as being saved.

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Bingo.

PopeADope said:

I've just shown you where in scripture it says we are judged and saved by our works, and that faith without works is dead.

This is the problem with scripture, two people can wind up with opposite beliefs and both of them have scripture to back it up... Why does the bible contradict itself?

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The answer to this is in the book of Romans. Unfortunately it's a book and not a verse so a little study needs to go into an argument that last 8 or 9 chapters. You are judged by your works, found guilty and condemned under any law you choose. You are then saved by grace through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ. There is no need to garnish it with parsley

Sully said:

I don't see the contradiction...one should see the fruit of ones faith through works but it is not what saves you...

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Could have stopped right there.

PopeADope said:

Matthew 25
41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, 42into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


They were damned because of the good works they failed to do!

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Fine, everyone is damned until the are saved. You're confusing the issue. Condemnation and salvation are separate things and follow separate rules..

Muffled said:

I believe this not the death of the body nor of the spirit but of the ego. So it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me.

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It's a separation of the mind from the body until a sin-free body is obtained.

Phantasman said:

I agree, as long as it isn't the flesh that one see's as the "body". The(spiritual term) circumcision used is to separate the flesh (physical) from the spiritual.

Paul says:

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:


The flesh and body are two different things. Christ said the the "flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63), yet he said to "eat his flesh" (which profits US).

Gnosis teaches:
Some are afraid lest they rise naked. Because of this they wish to rise in the flesh, and they do not know that it is those who wear the flesh who are naked. It is those who [...] to unclothe themselves who are not naked. "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit. He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing.- Gospel of Philip

We see how the word flesh is used as a parable by Christ, because he spoke spirit.

Now Paul makes sense when he says:

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Though "flesh" is used two times, they have separate meanings. The flesh that covers the physical body, and the flesh that spoke the words of God. It is why the Jews were confused when they heard Christ say to "eat my flesh". Ignorance, because they followed the ways of the flesh (which their law and rituals were based). Todays orthodox have returned to the same way, physical rituals through spiritual ignorance.

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Horsecrap. Your confused about the earthly body and the resurrected body.