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Can You Do Me a 'Solid?' Would It Really 'Matter?'

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
@Polymath257, I'm curious about your opinions on the accuracy of this statement from the article in the OP, given the composition of an atom as you describe above.

"If you observed the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons."

My opinion? Not even close. First of all, you don't find photons inside the atom (at least, not for long). Second, the various particles (electrons, quarks, etc) are NOT vortices.

A much closer 'picture' would be a small 'nugget' in the center for the nucleus and a general haze surrounding it for the electron orbitals. The nucleus itself would be vibrating.

I also have strong issues with the premise: 'looking at it with a microscope' because this is precisely where quantum effects are a major problem. To 'look' requires something of very small wavelength, which means high energy, which can break apart the whole thing. But that is a later collection of concepts.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I'm fascinated by the notion that nothing in our perceived reality is actually solid and that it is everything we perceive as matter is merely constructed of non-solid energy. Admittedly, my knowledge is limited on this subject. I'm studying this independently and would like to know more.

"What we perceive as our physical material world, is really not physical or material at all, in fact, it is far from it."

Nothing Is Solid & Everything Is Energy – Scientists Explain The World of Quantum Physics

One may conclude that we are individual observers that are involved in creating our own reality and that the universe is a perceived construct in our consciousness.

While I'd like input from our science-minded RFers, I would like to hear from others as well who would accept this or attempt to disprove it.

What, if any, are the holes in this view?

Assuming this is true, what role does our ever elusive consciousness play in this?

What are the spiritual/religious implications?


Atoms are 99.9999999% empty space. That 0.00000001% that is matter is pretty solid stuff. I believe that if all the space were removed from every human alive you would be left with an incredibly dense chunk of matter about the size of a sugar cube.

As to what are the implications? Its just how it is, no implications. needed.

99.9999999% of Your Body Is Empty Space
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Atoms are 99.9999999% empty space. That 0.00000001% that is matter is pretty solid stuff. I believe that if all the space were removed from every human alive you would be left with an incredibly dense chunk of matter about the size of a sugar cube.

As to what are the implications? Its just how it is, no implications. needed.

99.9999999% of Your Body Is Empty Space
<pedant>
Whenever I see something like this, I have to count the number of 9's to make sure it is accurate. The situation is actually more dramatic than this.

A typical atom is about 1 Angstrom in radius, so about 10^{-10) meters. The radius of a typical nucleus is about a femtometer or 10^(-15) meter. So, the radius of a nucleus is about 1/100,000 =10^(-5) that of an atom. But the *volumes* go as the cube, which means the volume of a nucleus is 10^(-15) of an atom. That is .0000000000001% (count the zeros), so
the atom is actually 99.9999999999999% empty space. You only had nine 9's. There should be 15.
</pedant>
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
that [...] everything we perceive as matter is merely constructed of non-solid energy.
Well, it's constructed of mass-energy.

But if you ever fall out of a third floor window (though I hope you won't), you'll find things are solid enough.
"What we perceive as our physical material world, is really not physical or material at all, in fact, it is far from it."
That's an overdramatic presentation. Yes, at a quantum level this argument works. But we don't perceive the world at a quantum level. Our perceptions of the world have evolved in favor of our survival and propagation on the macro scale, and work very well, as the fact you were able to type your post and I was able to read it will testify.

To underline the point, it's still an open question whether any part of our brain functions require quantum physics to explain; last time I looked there were no known examples. And a claim maybe a decade ago that a particular function in the eye of a particular species of bird worked by a quantum effect seems to have dropped off the radar.
One may conclude that we are individual observers that are involved in creating our own reality and that the universe is a perceived construct in our consciousness.
I'm not at all clear how that follows from the observation that all things are, in the final analysis, related to quantum functions at the very very small level.

The macro world, our world, is as it is, and works very much as we perceive it ─ not just for us, but for all forms of life, from viruses to humans and shortly to intelligent machines.
what role does our ever elusive consciousness play in this?
As ever, it depends how you define consciousness. But basically the macro environment has allowed biology to exist, evolution to happen, and consciousness to result. at the very least in one species.

(I seem to remember that Roger Penrose, in the original The Emperor's New Mind, argued that consciousness / self was explained by unspecified quantum processes in 'microtubules'. To put it politely, that's not an accepted view.)
What are the spiritual/religious implications?
Since the latter 19th century, some people have tried to place God in other dimensions, in quantum interstices, and in other corners of physics. Gods exist as mental constructs, and do their best work (as well as their worst) in that form; and in my personal view it would be a mistake (if you were a believer) to reduce God to a superscientist, since it takes away the mystery that's an essential part of the aura and attraction.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
<pedant>
Whenever I see something like this, I have to count the number of 9's to make sure it is accurate. The situation is actually more dramatic than this.

A typical atom is about 1 Angstrom in radius, so about 10^{-10) meters. The radius of a typical nucleus is about a femtometer or 10^(-15) meter. So, the radius of a nucleus is about 1/100,000 =10^(-5) that of an atom. But the *volumes* go as the cube, which means the volume of a nucleus is 10^(-15) of an atom. That is .0000000000001% (count the zeros), so
the atom is actually 99.9999999999999% empty space. You only had nine 9's. There should be 15.
</pedant>

In my deference I'm not a mathematician or particle physicist so i think it was a reasonable good estimate. When the sources on the interweb range from 3 (laughable) decimal places to a few with a reoccurring dot, what's a gal to do?

Thanks for the info, i shall remember and no doubt use it in future

Edit... And thanks for the like ;-)
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Atoms are 99.9999999% empty space. That 0.00000001% that is matter is pretty solid stuff. I believe that if all the space were removed from every human alive you would be left with an incredibly dense chunk of matter about the size of a sugar cube.

As to what are the implications? Its just how it is, no implications. needed.

99.9999999% of Your Body Is Empty Space

This, coupled with @Polymath257's correction, by my guess, would render said chunk much smaller, probably closer to a small grain of sand (or perhaps even microscopic).
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
This, coupled with @Polymath257's correction, by my guess, would render said chunk much smaller, probably closer to a small grain of sand (or perhaps even microscopic).

Let's do another quick calculation. If we remove all the space between electrons, we would essentially get nuclear matter, such as in a neutron star. Neutron stars have a density of about 4*10^(17) kg/m^3. So a stars that is as massive as the sun will be about 20 km in radius.

So, let's do a ballpark estimate. There are around 10 billion people on Earth, each with a mass of, say 100 kg. That gives 10^12 or a trillion kilograms. Divide this by 4*10^(17) to get a volume of about 2.5*10^(-6) m^3. This is about 2.5 cubic centimeters (cc's), so about the size of a couple of sugar cubes. This is a bit of an over-estimate, but is still a ballpark figure. A grain of sand would be too small.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Let's do another quick calculation. If we remove all the space between electrons, we would essentially get nuclear matter, such as in a neutron star. Neutron stars have a density of about 4*10^(17) kg/m^3. So a stars that is as massive as the sun will be about 20 km in radius.

So, let's do a ballpark estimate. There are around 10 billion people on Earth, each with a mass of, say 100 kg. That gives 10^12 or a trillion kilograms. Divide this by 4*10^(17) to get a volume of about 2.5*10^(-6) m^3. This is about 2.5 cubic centimeters (cc's), so about the size of a couple of sugar cubes. This is a bit of an over-estimate, but is still a ballpark figure. A grain of sand would be too small.

Okay, that makes sense. I misread @ChristineM's post where she said "every human alive" and read "every live human" and thought to myself that a sugar cube seemed way too large for one human being.

In conclusion, my math and reading comprehension skills appear to be on about the same level...

Edited for typos
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I'm fascinated by the notion that nothing in our perceived reality is actually solid and that it is everything we perceive as matter is merely constructed of non-solid energy. Admittedly, my knowledge is limited on this subject. I'm studying this independently and would like to know more.
"What we perceive as our physical material world, is really not physical or material at all, in fact, it is far from it."
Nothing Is Solid & Everything Is Energy – Scientists Explain The World of Quantum Physics
One may conclude that we are individual observers that are involved in creating our own reality and that the universe is a perceived construct in our consciousness.
While I'd like input from our science-minded RFers, I would like to hear from others as well who would accept this or attempt to disprove it.
What, if any, are the holes in this view?
Assuming this is true, what role does our ever elusive consciousness play in this?
What are the spiritual/religious implications?

As far as 'spiritual/religious implications' goes I noticed at Psalms 104:30 that things are created when God sends forth His spirit.
Isaiah 40:26 says that God used His 'power', His 'strength' to create, and at Psalms 33:6 that God made things by the breath of His mouth, so such creative 'power' and 'strength' comes from God in some way speaking things into existence. Thus God supplied the needed abundant dynamic 'energy' (power and strength) to create the visible material/physical realm of existence.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God supplied the needed abundant dynamic 'energy' (power and strength) to create the visible material/physical realm of existence.
But how?

What are the steps by which speaking the appropriate words brings things into existence?

What techniques did God employ to make the universe?

If we're going to understand, then those are the serious questions.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
But how?
What are the steps by which speaking the appropriate words brings things into existence?
What techniques did God employ to make the universe?
If we're going to understand, then those are the serious questions.

Wow, an inquiring mind wants to know, that's wonderful.
For now, the Bible is about us being delivered through the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
Revelation also speaks about future new information, new scrolls/books, being opened up for us.
So, for now the focus is about the good news message about God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44 because we need Peace on Earth, and according to Scripture only God's kingdom will bring Peace to Earth.
The Bible also speaks about Jesus using executional words against the wicked at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
Through Jesus' words is how the wicked will be destroyed forever as per Psalms 92:7.
We are Not given the details now, but we will know more during Jesus' coming 1,000-year rule over Earth.
So, sorry I can't give you the answers as to how, but I think the day is coming when we will know and understand.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We are Not given the details now, but we will know more during Jesus' coming 1,000-year rule over Earth.
So, sorry I can't give you the answers as to how, but I think the day is coming when we will know and understand.
Forgive me if I reply to that, Hmmmm.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
I was defining love more as instinctive quality beings share amongst themselves rather than the euphoric feeling.

Well that type of instinctive love is a product of evolution. Evolution has basically programmed us in such a way as to insure the survival of our species. Our brains are chemically programmed to respond in certain ways to insure our survival. So I would say that type of love is chemical as well. Do you get physical feelings or emotions when you are around someone you love? That is a sure sign that what you are feeling is in fact a physical, material interaction of sorts.
 
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