How in the world did Christians get Jesus from the Old Testament?

Twilight Hue · Nov 12, 2017

Augustus said:
They start with the idea that he is the messiah then work back. Once you 'know' he is the messiah, then you know he must have been foretold.

Yes but it's a Jewish text to start with. Judaism officially does not recognize it.

It's like Christians took the Jewish text, hijacked it, and made up their own interpretation of the Old Testament by saying Jesus was in the Old Testament when he wasn't.

Rival · Nov 12, 2017

Kuzcotopia said:
You just defended the practice of blood sacrifice. . . . so do Christians. Hence the link the OP refers to.

Yes but many religions have sacrifice. That doesn't make them connected except superficially. Also Judaism specifically is against human sacrifice, which is what Jesus is purported to have been.

Mister Emu · Nov 12, 2017

Nowhere Man said:
It's like Christians took the Jewish text, hijacked it, and made up their own interpretation of the Old Testament by saying Jesus was in the Old Testament when he wasn't.

I'll try again. The first Christians were Jews, using their own Jewish texts.

osgart · Nov 12, 2017

yes, but did Jesus exist. 2017 years ago, he was crucified, and thus our calendar. Clearly someone important died that time ago. Someone that stood out to the people of the time.

Perhaps God interprets his bible better then the Jews. Or maybe Jesus himself has nothing to do with what is written about him, but he profoundly affected people that they decided to write about him the only way they knew how.

The Jesus phenomena is a big mystery.

URAVIP2ME · Nov 12, 2017

Nowhere Man said:
Yes but it's a Jewish text to start with. Judaism officially does not recognize it.
It's like Christians took the Jewish text, hijacked it, and made up their own interpretation of the Old Testament by saying Jesus was in the Old Testament when he wasn't.

I find MESSIAH is definitely in the old Hebrew Scriptures as found at Daniel 9:25-26.

So, over five centuries in advance Daniel shows the exact time frame for MESSIAH's appearance.
Daniel writes about ' weeks of years ' ( each week was a seven year long time period )
There would be 7 plus 62 of such weeks of years making a total of 69 week of years or equals 483 years.
That counting of time started with Nehemiah 2:1; Nehemiah 2:5-8 with the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
It was Jesus ( at his baptised ) in the first century to be MESSIAH at that predicted time.
Because of what Daniel wrote the 1st-century people were looking for MESSIAH to come as per Luke 3:15.
They were in ' expectation ' of MESSIAH"S coming at that time frame, and Jesus as MESSIAH came right on time.

idav · Nov 12, 2017

Nowhere Man said:
It's a Jewish text that has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

So how did Christians extrapolate that somehow, the Old Testament had anything to do with Jesus?

The Old Testament is seen as prophecy, in that something is waiting to be fulfilled. Jesus did seem to have a bit of an esoteric reading of Isaiah, Genesis, Book of Jonah etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with it at least he didn't take it literally.

URAVIP2ME · Nov 12, 2017

osgart said:
yes, but did Jesus exist. 2017 years ago, he was crucified, and thus our calendar. Clearly someone important died that time ago. Someone that stood out to the people of the time.
Perhaps God interprets his bible better then the Jews. Or maybe Jesus himself has nothing to do with what is written about him, but he profoundly affected people that they decided to write about him the only way they knew how.
The Jesus phenomena is a big mystery.

Mystery or ( as recorded at Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9 ) that the Bible's words ( accurate meaning ) would be sealed up or closed up until our day (2 Timothy 3:1-5,13) or time frame (Proverbs 4:18).
Isaiah 60:22 speaks that there would be a time of accelerated speed for Bible spreading and learning.
Modern technology has made possible rapid Bible translation possible so that people even in remote areas of Earth can now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.
Many today rove ' to and fro ' in a literal way, but also back and forth through the pages of Scripture.
We can rove or criss cross through the pages of Scripture as never before in history.
A comprehensive concordance now makes it possible to put the Bible in alphabetical order by subject or topic arrangement. That makes it possible to study or research Scripture to show the internal harmony among the many Bible writers because the Bible has many cross-reference corresponding or parallel verses and passages and that is why Jesus' recorded words could explain and often preface his statements with the words, " it is written....." meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures. So, I find Jesus' phenomena is Not the mystery but centuries of false clergy teachings about Jesus is what has created a mystery.

URAVIP2ME · Nov 12, 2017

Rival said:
Yes but many religions have sacrifice. That doesn't make them connected except superficially. Also Judaism specifically is against human sacrifice, which is what Jesus is purported to have been.

I find Jesus was a sacrifice (a ransom) in that Jesus was put to death. Jesus willingly sacrificed his life for us.
Jesus was Not sacrificed in the same manner as the animals were sacrificed in ancient Israel.
Jesus simply gave up his perfectly healthy life for us which No animal nor sinning human could do for us.
In other words, we can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can do that for us.
According to Revelation 1:18 Jesus can and will do away with enemy death for us -1 Corinthians 15:26.

Fool · Nov 12, 2017

URAVIP2ME said:
I find MESSIAH is definitely in the old Hebrew Scriptures as found at Daniel 9:25-26.

So, over five centuries in advance Daniel shows the exact time frame for MESSIAH's appearance.
Daniel writes about ' weeks of years ' ( each week was a seven year long time period )
There would be 7 plus 62 of such weeks of years making a total of 69 week of years or equals 483 years.
That counting of time started with Nehemiah 2:1; Nehemiah 2:5-8 with the rebuilding of Jerusalem.
It was Jesus ( at his baptised ) in the first century to be MESSIAH at that predicted time.
Because of what Daniel wrote the 1st-century people were looking for MESSIAH to come as per Luke 3:15.
They were in ' expectation ' of MESSIAH"S coming at that time frame, and Jesus as MESSIAH came right on time.

a messiah wasn't necessarily a future person.

it's was a person during daniel's time too..

cyrus was called the messiah. the king of israel was the messiah, the high priest was the messiah, the patriarchs were messiahs.

others as well. the annointed one was the messiah.

ezekiel speaks of the annointing of the righteous in 9:4

Fool · Nov 12, 2017

Mister Emu said:
I'll try again. The first Christians were Jews, using their own Jewish texts.

the first Jews were egyptians. out of egypt i called my son. the first egyptians were ............

Dawnofhope · Nov 12, 2017

Nowhere Man said:
It's a Jewish text that has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

So how did Christians extrapolate that somehow, the Old Testament had anything to do with Jesus?

I can see Jesus in the OT and I'm not even a Christian. Nearly 33% of the world's population see it and follow Jesus. Muslims who make nearly 25% of the world's population see him as being an important prophet.

You can't see Jesus in the OT? Maybe you are not looking hard enough.

whirlingmerc · Nov 12, 2017

Nowhere Man said:
It's a Jewish text that has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

So how did Christians extrapolate that somehow, the Old Testament had anything to do with Jesus?

Jesus is EVERYWHERE in the Old Testament.... it's like Jesus is hidden in plain sight

for example.... Jesus is the interpreter and guide to the dreams in Zechariah
Zechariah: A Dreamscape Pointing to a Man Called Branch

Thief · Nov 12, 2017

URAVIP2ME said:
I find Jesus was a sacrifice (a ransom) in that Jesus was put to death. Jesus willingly sacrificed his life for us.
Jesus was Not sacrificed in the same manner as the animals were sacrificed in ancient Israel.
Jesus simply gave up his perfectly healthy life for us which No animal nor sinning human could do for us.
In other words, we can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can do that for us.
According to Revelation 1:18 Jesus can and will do away with enemy death for us -1 Corinthians 15:26.

He did not die FOR us.....
He died BECAUSE of us

try this....God is looking to better the human condition
Genesis Chapter Two......the mind and the body....as a better receptacle

the prophets come and go.....but nobody is listening

So...God takes matters into His own hands
all the while knowing......This is going to kill ME

Augustus · Nov 12, 2017

Nowhere Man said:
Yes but it's a Jewish text to start with. Judaism officially does not recognize it.

It's like Christians took the Jewish text, hijacked it, and made up their own interpretation of the Old Testament by saying Jesus was in the Old Testament when he wasn't.

Supersessionist religions (Christianity, Islam, etc.) don't emerge as fully formed, distinct faiths. They emerge from the traditions they supersede over decades/centuries of evolution.

Because early Christians were, like Jesus, Jewish the text was already part of the tradition long before Christianity became something distinct from Judaism.

Thief · Nov 12, 2017

I think......oh yes I do.....
the confusion set in at the Last Supper table

He said to His disciples.....Do this in memory of ME

He took the Passover.....a remembrance of Moses and the Exodus
and turned unto Himself

omg.....

THAT is not very Jewish!!!!!!

wizanda · Nov 13, 2017

In my opinion:

adrian009 said:
You can't see Jesus in the OT? Maybe you are not looking hard enough.

Looking without changing the way we look at things, means it won't make any difference how hard we look, if we're looking in the wrong direction.

Nowhere Man said:
Judaism officially does not recognize it.

Rabbinic Judaism is cut off by Yeshua's fulfillment of prophecy, so instead of accept that, they deny he existed, change his name, and remove any understanding of prophecy fulfillment.

Nowhere Man said:
Yes but it's a Jewish text to start with.

The text is Hebraic; modern Rabbinic Judaism is based on Pharisaic ideas, and thus started as a sect of Judaism.

Yeshua in the Synoptic Gospels is Hebraic, and Christianity is more Hellenized, with both fulfilling a large percentage of Tanakh prophecy.

Nowhere Man said:
It's like Christians took the Jewish text, hijacked it, and made up their own interpretation of the Old Testament

These so called Christians are the author of John which is most likely recorded by members of the Sanhedrin to have the knowledge required within it, Paul a Pharisee who supposedly converted to his own version of Pharisaic Judaism, and Simon the stone who is quoting Pharisaic concepts, and applying them to Yeshua.

So basically Pharisaic Judaism created Christianity, which opposes Yeshua who fits with Hebraic prophecy.

Nowhere Man said:
Jesus was in the Old Testament when he wasn't.

Yeshua is in the Tanakh in multiple places by name, Zechariah 3 (Yehoshua) and Isaiah 52:10, Psalms 98:3 (Yeshuat Eloheinu).

Nowhere Man said:
So how did Christians extrapolate that somehow, the Old Testament had anything to do with Jesus?

So Christians (John, Paul and Simon) expounded on the idea of Isaiah 53 being fulfilled by him, they've done so purposefully for Pharisaic Judaism covering up any ideas of the covenant being nullified, and reestablishing Israel as holy, at the time it was being cut off.

They've not paid attention to a majority of other interlinking prophetic text, and thus the whole world is deceived in someway as prophesied.

In my opinion.

Dawnofhope · Nov 13, 2017

wizanda said:
Looking without changing the way we look at things, means it won't make any difference how hard we look if we're looking in the wrong direction.

If we want to change, then we need to do things differently.

We can see each others point of view, though we disagree, and that's fine.

The writer of the OP is yet to take that step. You can see Christians POV without agreeing with it, as many on RF do.

Fool · Nov 13, 2017

whirlingmerc said:
Jesus is EVERYWHERE in the Old Testament.... it's like Jesus is hidden in plain sight

for example.... Jesus is the interpreter and guide to the dreams in Zechariah
Zechariah: A Dreamscape Pointing to a Man Called Branch

what do you mean he's hidden in plain sight? and why would he need to hide even?

wizanda · Nov 13, 2017

In my opinion:

Fool said:
what do you mean he's hidden in plain sight? and why would he need to hide even?

It is 'hidden' according to the text, as demons are escaping from Hell (Isaiah 24:18, Isaiah 14:9); thus Yeshua has been set as a snare to catch them, and thus many are blinded to seeing what the text truly means (Isaiah 29:9-14).

Wouldn't say it is hidden tho, just obscured by our own naivety...

Like some bits are really basic, first changing his name back to Yeshua (salvation), and then we see 'why we should search the scriptures for salvation'.

It is also hidden as it isn't all explained in a straightforward manner, often it is in cryptic prophetic statements, that only make sense when we look at the whole of time....

So whereas Jews generally try to look at each individual section in a historical grammatical context, this often misses the interlinking prophetic implications, that then prove Yeshua can be the only person who is Messiah by the numerous prophetic fulfillments at the 2nd temple destruction, and diaspora.

In my opinion.

Fool · Nov 13, 2017

wizanda said:
In my opinion:

It is 'hidden' according to the text, as demons are escaping from Hell (Isaiah 24:18, Isaiah 14:9); thus Yeshua has been set as a snare to catch them, and thus many are blinded to seeing what the text truly means (Isaiah 29:9-14).

Wouldn't say it is hidden tho, just obscured by our own naivety...

Like some bits are really basic, first changing his name back to Yeshua (salvation), and then we see 'why we should search the scriptures for salvation'.

It is also hidden as it isn't all explained in a straightforward manner, often it is in cryptic prophetic statements, that only make sense when we look at the whole of time....

So whereas Jews generally try to look at each individual section in a historical grammatical context, this often misses the interlinking prophetic implications, that then prove Yeshua can be the only person who is Messiah by the numerous prophetic fulfillments at the 2nd temple destruction, and diaspora.

In my opinion.

unless you're implying incarnations of an avatar, there is no jesus now, nor was there a jesus in the OT. the OT doesn't promote egos and neither does kenosis.

the majority of christians don't believe in palingenesis.

even though they've read of angels descending and ascending upon the head of the son of man.

How in the world did Christians get Jesus from the Old Testament?

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

se Dex me saut.

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