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Vastness of Space Suggests There Is No Almighty Creator

Silverscale derg

Active Member
"Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

As Everitt puts it:

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
source
So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"

then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.

.


There is no "almighty" creator of the world but there is however those who created it. It can't have been done in seven days especially by one god no matter how powerful they are. Each god and goddess has a reason, and an element. Only as a set did the true makers of the universe succeed. Unlike the "almighty" god of lies in the bible, the dragon gods don't claim to be all powerful, nor all knowing although they're all curious if that's a thing. They took billions upon billions of years to carefully craft huge stars that when split would cover a wide area. Each planet they made was carefully crafted, Each universe an experiment, some of gravity, some of radiation, some of life.

That "god" is human based because he wants to see the world burn, we dragons do too but for a different reason. He want's our planet to be sucked dry, yet I and many others are waiting for the humans to kill themselves off.

It doesn't debunk religion as a whole, yet it does debunk the ones that say the earth was poofed here and that humans are the only important ones...
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
There is no "almighty" creator of the world but there is however those who created it. It can't have been done in seven days especially by one god no matter how powerful they are. Each god and goddess has a reason, and an element. Only as a set did the true makers of the universe succeed. Unlike the "almighty" god of lies in the bible, the dragon gods don't claim to be all powerful, nor all knowing although they're all curious if that's a thing. They took billions upon billions of years to carefully craft huge stars that when split would cover a wide area. Each planet they made was carefully crafted, Each universe an experiment, some of gravity, some of radiation, some of life.

That "god" is human based because he wants to see the world burn, we dragons do too but for a different reason. He want's our planet to be sucked dry, yet I and many others are waiting for the humans to kill themselves off.

It doesn't debunk religion as a whole, yet it does debunk the ones that say the earth was poofed here and that humans are the only important ones...

Are you currently seeing a psychiatrist or mental health professional? I would recommend that you do - immediately.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus Christ is truth. All other things are greatly inferior this.
With all due respect, ol' buddy, your statement is meaningless.

Jesus is not conformity with reality. People do not say, Jesus will out, or to tell the Jesus, the whole Jesus and nothing but the Jesus, or even, the first casualty of war is Jesus.

I suggest that it helps everyone to be clear on how they may distinguish true from false statements; and you don't appear to have such clarity.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
With all due respect, ol' buddy, your statement is meaningless.

Jesus is not conformity with reality. People do not say, Jesus will out, or to tell the Jesus, the whole Jesus and nothing but the Jesus, or even, the first casualty of war is Jesus.

I suggest that it helps everyone to be clear on how they may distinguish true from false statements; and you don't appear to have such clarity.

You suffer from a failure to understand Jesus. You have no clue. The thing that is dangerous about you is that you actually do think you do have Him figured out.
 

stevevw

Member
"Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

As Everitt puts it:

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
source
So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"

then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.
The bible tells us that God is the creator of everything including the universe. Science tells us that the universe is big and I would have thought that was a testament to Gods creative power. Science also tells us that the universe had a begining that caused the material world to come into existence from a non- material origin. Behind every material existence is a cause which will eventually go back to a non-material beginning. The bible tells us that God is that non-material origin in

John 1: 1 to 3

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

and in
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

So God spoke existence into reality through the word which is not material.

Despite God being the almighty Creator of everything He loved us and sent His Son to the material earth and that is how we can have a realtionship with Him depsite God being in Heaven which is in another dimension let alone the universe.

John 1: 14
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Despite the universe being so big God is bigger and able to dwell in all places nd yet cares for us at the same time despite people feeling that they are too small for God to care.

Psalm 8:3–4

When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him?

Creation is not seperate from us and are both part of Gods plans. Creation also suffered as a result of sin and therefore needs to be seen as one with us including the universe. So the universe not only longs to be set free from sin which is slowly destroying it but also longs for us to be set free as Gods children.

Romans 8:19-22
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
but I was confused about the rest because I guess I don't view them as religions, but only folk lore/ mythology.
That is because you are Christian (perhaps at least Conservative leaning), living in a society whose members are predominately Christian, and was perhaps even raised Christian. I used to have the same mentality, but in reality it's rather rude to tell a Hindu (or anyone of any religion) that there religion is not a religion but only yours is.
Jesus Christ is truth. All other things are greatly inferior this.
On what evidence do you base this claim?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You suffer from a failure to understand Jesus. You have no clue. The thing that is dangerous about you is that you actually do think you do have Him figured out.
I asked you for your definition of truth.

You said Jesus is truth.

I observed that your statement makes no sense.

And that it leaves you with no useful concept of truth.

So I'm suggesting you acquire one.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
I asked you for your definition of truth.

You said Jesus is truth.

I observed that your statement makes no sense.

And that it leaves you with no useful concept of truth.

So I'm suggesting you acquire one.

I'm suggesting you talk to someone on your secular level with a warped secular mind like yours. I'm done with you.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm suggesting you talk to someone on your secular level with a warped secular mind like yours. I'm done with you.
You're perfectly within your rights to choose to have no understanding of true and false in reality.

So I leave you to your elective ignorance.

Good luck with that.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
You're perfectly within your rights to choose to have no understanding of true and false in reality.

So I leave you to your elective ignorance.

Good luck with that.

You choose whatsoever you will. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Hmmm, Christianity makes much more sense to me. It doesn't make any sense to me that an intelligent deity/creator who created humans to be able to love, grieve, want to have meaning in life etc. would be that impersonal. I mean with all of the struggles and pain in life..it would seem even more cruel than just impersonal to make us this way in a world that can be so harsh at times, to simply sit back and say "Well, I made you..isn't that eneough? "
Well, it's more understandable to me, but my father flat out didn't love us and my mother is insane. At some point we have to realize that Reality doesn't require our permission or happiness to do what it's going to do.

I don't think anybody would come up with that claim on their own, I certainly wouldn't have.
You've never heard "he thinks he's God's gift to women" or some related turn of phrase?

Yes, perhaps some people might think this way, but the religions you are talking about teach that we are our own gods, or can attain our own Godship without any kind of genuine dependency on a creator who made us.
Keep in mind that in the Garden of Eden story, mere humans could get god powers just by eating specific fruit.

Those are the religions that promote arrogance. By realizing we can't attain spiritual perfection on our own, we are being in our most humble state.
Jesus told you to let your light shine. There's no point in this directive if we don't have a light to shine.

The only religions that teach that are the Left Handed Path religions. Not too many gods where keen on the idea of us mortals being gods. Prometheus elevated us, and Zeus punished him to have his liver eaten out every day, to be regenerated and killed again, forever and ever. Ammit would have eaten your soul, and to the Egyptians the only human who was a god was the Pharaoh. In traditional Japanese lore, the only god-human was the Emperor, and for others there simply was no obtaining an equal status.
Well, there are also stories of demons being promoted in the next lives and gods being demoted. Some religions seem to use the word "god" as more of a job title and who has it is irrelevant, really.

El and Baal and Satan are not names, after all, but basically a job title.

How can you compare folklore or even worshipping a Pharoah or emperor who was a tyranical human being, to the creator of the universe?
How can you compare some rebellious, homeless, dare I say "prodigal" carpenter's kid with the Creator of the Universe?

The people who were under rule of these guys had to do what was dictated to them, they had no choice unless they were ok with losing their lives over it.
And Christianity got a big boost once it became legal and mandatory.

In fact, im betting that many of these people who "knew their place", didnt view these dictators as true gods at all ( I'm sure there was some definate eye rolling going on when they could get away with it). It was these dictator's massive egos that demanded that the people worship them or that they would be killed. They were sinful fallen men who were self deluded and in a position of great power that's all.
Take ancient Egypt. Those tombs and pyramids weren't going to build themselves. Thousands of people loved their leader so much they spent a LOT of time on them (and not slaves, but expert workers). Hebrews and Greeks had not nearly as many rights for, say, women, as the ancient Egyptians did. It was truly a paradise and when it wasn't due to mismanagement, the Gods chucked out the old and hired someone new (aka: there was rebellion). No one in their right mind would've wanted to leave Egypt unless there was open war or something drastic. That's why people from all over the Mediterranean flocked there when their own kingdoms sucked. (see: Jacob and his 12 or so kids)

What does the Bible mean that we are created in God's image, or likeness? No one really knows. I get the impression from scripture that it has less to do with his physical attributes compared to his mental/emotional /spiritual attributes.
Calling it a spiritual likeness started when portraying the gods as anthropomorphic became outlawed.

220px-thumbnail.jpg
This is El, who was God for some people in the bible. Note that He is not invisible.

Your Deity is everything? But what exactly is he? Wouldn't it just make more sense to not believe in a deity at all?
In some religions, the gods created the universe by having their bodies separated into different organs, which became parts of the universe in general or features on earth in particular.
 

Socratic Berean

Occasional thinker, perpetual seeker
This is the type of mental masturbation that results when finite human minds attempt to comprehend an infinite God. The "logic" behind the argument is dizzying--an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator who is not bound by time (or dimensions, by extension) is inconsistent with "The Vastness of Space?" Really? The human-focus of scripture as an argument is not only unconvincing, but it is intellectually lazy (if not dishonest), a classic case of "text out of context is mere pretext" and of biblical illiteracy. (Look at all the scripture that argues against such a position. (And, no, I don't have the time to look it all up for you.))

Since the authors want to try to use scripture, no matter how poorly, to support their argument, in closing, two very relevant verses come to mind, one from the Old Testament and one from the New:

"Don't let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ." (Colossians 2:8, New Living Translation)

"My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts," says the Lord. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine." (Isaiah 55:8, New Living Translation)
 
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