God and His Criteria for Forgivness

In another thread it was mentioned how an elderly man had professed faith in Christ for the first time at mass, which got me thinking about an old question. How bad can a person be before no amount of confession of sins and professed acceptance of Christ will keep him out of hell?

Which leads to the other question, if there isn't any such limit to one's sinning then why bother to care about god's admonishments not to do X, Y, or Z anyway? Simply enjoy your sinning until it looks like the end is just around the corner and then play the salvation card. Of course there's always the chance you'll suddenly die before getting a chance to recant your sinful ways, but who lives like that anyway---always waiting for the other shoe to drop?

Seems like the opportunistic person has nothing to loose by doing so, other than taking the chance he might die before making amends. And if you can see his position what convinces you not to do it?

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If you have sinned against another person so that his or her soul ends up lost, there is no forgiveness for that, imo.

savagewind said:

If you have sinned against another person so that his or her soul ends up lost, there is no forgiveness for that, imo.

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How could that happen?

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Skwim said:

keep him out of hell?

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There is no hell, only non existence in death. The promise for the righteous is the resurrection, being re-created.

Skwim said:

How bad can a person be before no amount of confession of sins and professed acceptance of Christ will keep him out of hell?

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There is largenesse in forgiveness if the attitude is repentant. There is also severity without repentance; there is severity with deliberate willful serious sin, a practice of such sin becomes unforgivable.

In all things, though, forgiveness never equals lack of punishment. Punishment is a given just as breathing is. Just like a teenager might be forgiven for putting a dent in his or hers parents car, they might however punish the teenager by 1. not letting that one ever drive this car again until their insurance recovers, 2. the teenager works off part of the cost to repair the car, 3. shows himself to be more responsible. In this example forgiveness can be seen to be a separate issue from punishment. And, it is.



While all believers sin, none can avoid it, the practice of serious deliberate sin, willfully engaged in fully knowing it is wrong, becomes damned. This means that the person shall suffer eternal death, non existence, a sleep like state.

Grandliseur said:

There is no hell, only non existence in death. The promise for the righteous is the resurrection, being re-created.

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Okay, but I know you get the gist of my scenario.

There is largenesse in forgiveness if the attitude is repentant.

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And this is what I'm talking about. At the close of one's sinful life a person is truly repentant.

While all believers sin, none can avoid it, the practice of serious deliberate sin, willfully engaged in fully knowing it is wrong, becomes damned. This means that the person shall suffer eternal death, non existence, a sleep like state.

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Got any chapter and verse for this?

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Skwim said:

How could that happen?

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I think it is very rare but possible. Matthew 18:6

Skwim said:

Okay, but I know you get the gist of my scenario.


And this is what I'm talking about. At the close of one's sinful life a person is truly repentant.


Got any chapter and verse for this?

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I already included some scripture, here is a little more:
All sin and cannot avoid it: Darby:

Willful sin damns:

However, a premature conclusion that we have committed the unforgivable sin should not be engaged in. We should realize that if we are repentant, stop sinning, that forgiveness may be found hopefully. After all, look at David's sin. It was as serious as it could be, yet, he is regarded as a righteous person because he was repentant, and his punishment went on for years and years.

The believer who sins seriously gets serious punishment which makes up for this sin, if the person is repentant.
So our suffering is God's way of paying us back for our sins so that when the people of the world are destroyed (a great many, not all) it may not be said that God was partial toward us and didn't pay us back our sins.

Skwim said:

In another thread it was mentioned how an elderly man had professed faith in Christ for the first time at mass, which got me thinking about an old question. How bad can a person be before no amount of confession of sins and professed acceptance of Christ will keep him out of hell?

Which leads to the other question, if there isn't any such limit to one's sinning then why bother to care about god's admonishments not to do X, Y, or Z anyway? Simply enjoy your sinning until it looks like the end is just around the corner and then play the salvation card. Of course there's always the chance you'll suddenly die before getting a chance to recant your sinful ways, but who lives like that anyway---always waiting for the other shoe to drop?

Seems like the opportunistic person has nothing to loose by doing so, other than taking the chance he might die before making amends. And if you can see his position what convinces you not to do it?

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It really has to do with the heart. Anybody can be real repentent as they stand in front of a judge (I've seen it happen) but it doesn't really mean that they mean it in the heart.

On the side of Jesus there were two thieves. One did have a real heart of repentance but the other one didn't so, in fact, those who sin until the end don't always repent.

And your point is well taken when you say "there's always a chance you'll suddenly die".

savagewind said:

If you have sinned against another person so that his or her soul ends up lost, there is no forgiveness for that, imo.

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The "imo" is duly noted. But there is nothing whatever in scripture to support that opinion.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

The "imo" is duly noted. But there is nothing whatever in scripture to support that opinion.

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I think if it is better to be thrown into the sea to sink means no forgiveness.

Skwim said:

Seems like the opportunistic person has nothing to loose by doing so, other than taking the chance he might die before making amends. And if you can see his position what convinces you not to do it?

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If they are trying to take advantage of salvation they will probably be denied salvation. God can tell if someone is sincere or not. Also if someone was sinning away care free, they are bound to hurt other people in the process. Let's take theft a sin that can result in no bodily harm. If someone stole a person's last bit of money it would make it very hard on them to live. They would have to scramble to find money and support themselves. So not living life by taking advantage of salvation makes the world a better place, if anything it's one less thief taking from people.

Enoch07 said:

If they are trying to take advantage of salvation they will probably be denied salvation. God can tell if someone is sincere or not. Also if someone was sinning away care free, they are bound to hurt other people in the process. Let's take theft a sin that can result in no bodily harm. If someone stole a person's last bit of money it would make it very hard on them to live. They would have to scramble to find money and support themselves. So not living life by taking advantage of salvation makes the world a better place, if anything it's one less thief taking from people.

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Good points, but what about those sins involving only oneself or are consensual such as lust, homosexuality, blasphemy, fornication, coveting your neighbor’s house, etc.. I can well imagine a homosexual saying "Hell with it, I'm going have sex, just like everyone else."

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Skwim said:

Good points, but what about those sins involving only oneself or are consensual such as lust, homosexuality, blasphemy, fornication, coveting your neighbor’s house, etc.. I can well imagine a homosexual saying "Hell with it, I'm going have sex, just like everyone else."

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Honestly I don't know for 100% certainty. As far as I can tell as long as the sinner is sincere when they repent, all is good.

(No edit, I just clicked to post accidently before I was done typing)

Grandliseur said:

I already included some scripture, here is a little more:
All sin and cannot avoid it: Darby:

1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(Confession may be to the congregation, in front of, or to the elders, but most specifically, it is to God in prayer, or to Christ.​

Willful sin damns:

Heb 10;
26 For where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and heat of fire about to devour the adversaries.​

However, a premature conclusion that we have committed the unforgivable sin should not be engaged in. We should realize that if we are repentant, stop sinning, that forgiveness may be found hopefully. After all, look at David's sin. It was as serious as it could be, yet, he is regarded as a righteous person because he was repentant, and his punishment went on for years and years.

The believer who sins seriously gets serious punishment which makes up for this sin, if the person is repentant.

Jeremiah 30:11 . . .Yet will I not of thee, make an end, But will chastise thee in measure, not holding thee, guiltless! (Rotherham)
2 Thessalonians 1: ISV
about your endurance and faith through all the persecutions and afflictions you are experiencing.
5 This is evidence of God's righteous judgment and is intended to make you worthy of God's kingdom, for which you are suffering.
​

So our suffering is God's way of paying us back for our sins so that when the people of the world are destroyed (a great many, not all) it may not be said that God was partial toward us and didn't pay us back our sins.

​

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Then I assume any known sin that's done on purpose pretty much guarantees a person a seat in hell.

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Skwim said:

Then I assume any known sin that's done on purpose pretty much guarantees a person a seat in hell.

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No. Most or many of our sins are done on purpose, later to be repented. Even Peter when he sinned twice, once by denying Christ was not done without knowing what he did, and later when he became a butt-licker and was reprimanded by Paul - did it knowingly.

The point is John's teaching, that the practice of serious deliberate sin is willfully continued despite knowing it to be wrong, despite maybe having it had being reprimanded. Don't tell me that when David ordered the husband of the wife he stole to be put in the front rows to be certain to be killed, that this was done without knowing it! That is hilarious.
So, once a person learns how things work, and then stops sinning, he might be forgiven. That seems to be the message.

Practice of sin, unrepentant and repentant:

Skwim said:

In another thread it was mentioned how an elderly man had professed faith in Christ for the first time at mass, which got me thinking about an old question. How bad can a person be before no amount of confession of sins and professed acceptance of Christ will keep him out of hell?

Which leads to the other question, if there isn't any such limit to one's sinning then why bother to care about god's admonishments not to do X, Y, or Z anyway? Simply enjoy your sinning until it looks like the end is just around the corner and then play the salvation card. Of course there's always the chance you'll suddenly die before getting a chance to recant your sinful ways, but who lives like that anyway---always waiting for the other shoe to drop?

Seems like the opportunistic person has nothing to loose by doing so, other than taking the chance he might die before making amends. And if you can see his position what convinces you not to do it?

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Well becoming a Christian involves a completely repentant heart. Most people who make a sincere conversion to Christianity do so not because they like the idea of heaven so much as they feel deep inside, the pain of sin and the desire to be cleansed from it. Most Christians will tell you that they either bawled like a baby, or cried for the first time in years during their conversion (I know I did..and me being a female had nothing to do with it. I've heard this from many men ). Part of the process of being cleansed is making the commitment to turn away from your former sinful life, understanding that Christ's sacrifice is the only thing powerful enough to remove sin and that power comes from him being the Son of God. So, although the Christian might mess up occasionally, the Holy Spirit inside him/her will be pretty grieved and that person will feel it intensely at some point enough to realize what he/she's done. God definitely forgives Christians when they mess up, and in Hebrews it says that Jesus is our advocate because he was tempted in every way and understands our struggle as humans. He didn't sin, but he suffered at that moment by not sinning, so he knows that if it was difficult for him as a human (who had the power to not sin, but still struggled and was tempted, how much more is it harder for us to be perfect. A true Christian isn't going to be repeatedly sinning serious sins because although they can sin occasionally and be forgiven, they are a new person in Christ. Also, there are consequences to those sins, sometimes painful consequences from God directly to help us, sometimes just life consequences as a result of natural law, and God can also take a protective realm away from us (or a protective realm can be removed as a result of spiritual laws he has already set up) if we commit a serious enough sin and allow us to learn that way. I've definitely had this happen before...my "spiritual spanking" wasn't enough to devastate me, but enough to sting enough to where I didn't do it again. But all this is out of God's love. It doesn't work like the way you proposed..by thinking we can continue to sin and get away with it. I'm not Catholic so I don't feel the need to go to confession per say, because I have a direct relationship to God and he is the only one that can forgive sin, not a human, priest etc. Again Jesus is my advocate or "go between". That's not to say that I shouldn't confess my sins to other Christians to helps me with accountability, but people don't have the authority to forgive sins, only God does.

So, no one gets away with anything! Lol.. Also a Christian understands that continuing to purposely sin and then disengenuinly ask for forgiveness won't fly with God..because God knows the heart, and he judges by the heart!

And we can have a genuine struggle with a certain type of sin and we may think it's no big deal to keep doing it, but we will feel a type of emotional and spiritual pain in our soul because of it and even if we go back to it again in a moment of weakness, we can still be forgiven and it doesn't mean we're not true Christians, but the Holy Spirit is working on us and at some point that sin won't have the power that it once did and you can simply get a distaste for it.

The main thing to understand is that "getting into heaven " is not God's only plan for us. His plan is to regenerate us through the Holy Spirit during this life, so we get to experience closeness with Him now, experience blessings here in this life that we wouldn't have experienced if we hadn't become Christians (and those blessings will be in a variety of ways...) and the regeneration process of us becoming more and more like Christ will determine the great things we'll have in the next life that can never be taken away. But, life is not always a bed of roses as a Christian..and Jesus says to first count the costs before coming to him.

Skwim said:

In another thread it was mentioned how an elderly man had professed faith in Christ for the first time at mass, which got me thinking about an old question. How bad can a person be before no amount of confession of sins and professed acceptance of Christ will keep him out of hell?

Which leads to the other question, if there isn't any such limit to one's sinning then why bother to care about god's admonishments not to do X, Y, or Z anyway? Simply enjoy your sinning until it looks like the end is just around the corner and then play the salvation card. Of course there's always the chance you'll suddenly die before getting a chance to recant your sinful ways, but who lives like that anyway---always waiting for the other shoe to drop?

Seems like the opportunistic person has nothing to loose by doing so, other than taking the chance he might die before making amends. And if you can see his position what convinces you not to do it?

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The Bible mentions one unforgivable sin (Mark 3:28-30) but no one can completely explain what "...blaspemes against the Holy Spirit..." entails. I've had people try to define this sin but they still come up a little short. It is my understanding that this sin is so egregious that it is purposely not outlined in the Scriptures; in other words, you'll know it when you see it.

Healing comes from The Holy Spirit. If you reject the healing that comes from The Holy Spirit then that part will never heal. Mark 3:28-30

You will end up burned as out of the fire.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames.

When a person acts towards any works of The Holy Spirit carelessly he will not receive the benefit of God's will be done respecting him. It can't be forgiven. It's not the carelessness that will not be forgiven. It is the rejection that will not be forgiven. God will not make a person take what The Holy Spirit has to offer.

Only a very sick god would consign anyone to hell. It is the Biblical god who needs forgiveness for its disgusting behaviour if the deeds attributed to it were true.

BSM1 said:

The Bible mentions one unforgivable sin (Mark 3:28-30) but no one can completely explain what "...blaspemes against the Holy Spirit..." entails. I've had people try to define this sin but they still come up a little short. It is my understanding that this sin is so egregious that it is purposely not outlined in the Scriptures; in other words, you'll know it when you see it.

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No "Sticks and stones may break my bones . . . ." here. Gotta wonder why god is sooo thin skinned.

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