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Why does God abort so many fetuses?

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
That definitely is an argument against Bible literiam but then again it also makes me think of the literalism of catholic dogma where some of the more dogmatic adherents don't allow use of condoms or birth control. Religions that have such views consider abortion murder, yet god/nature is allowed to have much higher rates of death. I see little difference in natures horrible birth rates and humans contributing to that horrible stat.
I see your point. Its a very good point although I make a distinction between catholic ideas and Roman Catholic dogmas.

My opinion about the Biblical: If abortion could be murder it could not be in a Biblical sense, because the child has not yet breathed or been taught either. The Bible does not give absolute distinctions about where life begins but instead puts value on the life of some ineffable quality held in the community and then the individual relative to that. The reason killing a man is wrong is that the man is made in God's image, however a man who has murdered is killed. (Genesis 9) The murderer is not in God's image, or it could not be killed. Moses was not killed as a child, because they could see his value. The Christian who participates in Christ is more alive than one who does not. The Jew who keeps the Torah is blessed, but the one who does not is cut off. There is no Biblical way to condemn abortion except under strictly reproductive interests. Calling it 'Murder' is an unbiblical thing, something projected onto the Bible and wishful thinking.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Between 10 and 25 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage.

A Breakdown of Miscarriage Rates by Week


"Miscarriages are sometimes allowed by God for His own purposes. There is an important distinction to be made between a naturally occurring miscarriage and the deliberate ending of a human life in abortion. Although pregnancy loss is known in the medical world as a “spontaneous abortion,” it has nothing to do with induced abortion or abortion-on-demand. One is unplanned (from the human perspective); the other is purposeful. One is based on God’s authority over life and death; the other is a human usurpation of divine authority."

"In this broken, sin-dominated world, God has allowed many things He does not like. Miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies, and birth defects are among them. Wars, natural disasters, illness, death, crime, and all other manifestations of sin are allowed to remain for a time. They are all part of sin’s curse on this fallen world. While God does control everything, He still allows what He hates to accomplish what He desires (see Isaiah 46:9–11).

Jesus gave us a glimpse into the mind of God when He responded to a question about a man born blind. Asked whose sin caused the man to be born sightless, Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him” (John 9:3). In that instance, the “works of God” resulted in a miraculous healing whereby many believed in Christ. God allows other difficult situations as well in order to bring about a greater good (Proverbs 19:21). Since God is the creator of all life, He alone can take that developing life without being a murderer. When human beings interrupt God’s creative work through abortion, we usurp a power that belongs only to the Creator (Psalm 139:13–16)."
If God hates abortion, why does He allow miscarriages?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
You two are absolutely correct. We are not held responsible for Adam's and Eve's sin. However, their choice determined the direction of those who came after them. Americans today had nothing whatsoever to do with the American Revolution, yet we live in a reality determined by the decisions of our forebears, and how they thought and acted influences what we think and do in turn.
You are comparing apples and oranges. God is all-powerful, a.k.a. no limitations. Our reality/universe, otoh, behaves in a certain way. God forced Adam and Eve to make the decision, and making that decision binding on all other innocent humans to come. God was not responsible for the American Revolution. That was an act of men.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
"Miscarriages are sometimes allowed by God for His own purposes. There is an important distinction to be made between a naturally occurring miscarriage and the deliberate ending of a human life in abortion. Although pregnancy loss is known in the medical world as a “spontaneous abortion,” it has nothing to do with induced abortion or abortion-on-demand. One is unplanned (from the human perspective); the other is purposeful. One is based on God’s authority over life and death; the other is a human usurpation of divine authority."

"In this broken, sin-dominated world, God has allowed many things He does not like. Miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies, and birth defects are among them. Wars, natural disasters, illness, death, crime, and all other manifestations of sin are allowed to remain for a time. They are all part of sin’s curse on this fallen world. While God does control everything, He still allows what He hates to accomplish what He desires (see Isaiah 46:9–11).

Jesus gave us a glimpse into the mind of God when He responded to a question about a man born blind. Asked whose sin caused the man to be born sightless, Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him” (John 9:3). In that instance, the “works of God” resulted in a miraculous healing whereby many believed in Christ. God allows other difficult situations as well in order to bring about a greater good (Proverbs 19:21). Since God is the creator of all life, He alone can take that developing life without being a murderer. When human beings interrupt God’s creative work through abortion, we usurp a power that belongs only to the Creator (Psalm 139:13–16)."
If God hates abortion, why does He allow miscarriages?

Brilliant:facepalm:
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
Has anyone come across the insane Christian sect called the, 'Quiverfulls', who believe that all children are a blessing from god and they should never use any form of birth control, having as many children as god sends them.

If god is responsible it isn't choosy about who has kids, what about those have been abused and killed by their evil parents/

My wife and I used birth control and we also welcomed six children into our family. There are many Christians, including millions of Catholics, who believe they should not use birth control and should allow God to send them the children he wants them to have. I don't know anything about "Quiverfulls", but the idea of not using contraception in marriage is certainly not insane.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
You are comparing apples and oranges. God is all-powerful, a.k.a. no limitations. Our reality/universe, otoh, behaves in a certain way. God forced Adam and Eve to make the decision, and making that decision binding on all other innocent humans to come. God was not responsible for the American Revolution. That was an act of men.
This conclusion depends on a materialistic fatalism where every single action and reaction in the universe is predictable by science, going all the way back to the Big Bang, to which living organisms are also subject due to the electrochemical nature of our brains. Under this view, every action, thought and feeling we have can be readily predicted well ahead of time by science. It is not a worldview I subscribe to, though I do fully understand how such a viewpoint, when including God in the picture as the Creator, makes Him a monster. I believe that we have true free will in our intentions and thoughts.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Since God is the creator of all life, He alone can take that developing life without being a murderer.
That seems unbiblical. Eve is biblically titled the mother of all the living. By your own argument mothers are invested with divine powers that mean they can take the lives of their own children without guilt. There is a story in the Bible where a starving mother under a siege eats her own children. Solomon threatens to cut a child in half, yet no one calls his action in to question. Bathsheba's unborn dies to punish David. There's simply zero biblical support for calling an abortion a murder. It is wishful thinking. Abortion is horrible but not unbiblical.
 
"Miscarriages are sometimes allowed by God for His own purposes. There is an important distinction to be made between a naturally occurring miscarriage and the deliberate ending of a human life in abortion. Although pregnancy loss is known in the medical world as a “spontaneous abortion,” it has nothing to do with induced abortion or abortion-on-demand. One is unplanned (from the human perspective); the other is purposeful. One is based on God’s authority over life and death; the other is a human usurpation of divine authority."

"In this broken, sin-dominated world, God has allowed many things He does not like. Miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies, and birth defects are among them. Wars, natural disasters, illness, death, crime, and all other manifestations of sin are allowed to remain for a time. They are all part of sin’s curse on this fallen world. While God does control everything, He still allows what He hates to accomplish what He desires (see Isaiah 46:9–11).

Jesus gave us a glimpse into the mind of God when He responded to a question about a man born blind. Asked whose sin caused the man to be born sightless, Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him” (John 9:3). In that instance, the “works of God” resulted in a miraculous healing whereby many believed in Christ. God allows other difficult situations as well in order to bring about a greater good (Proverbs 19:21). Since God is the creator of all life, He alone can take that developing life without being a murderer. When human beings interrupt God’s creative work through abortion, we usurp a power that belongs only to the Creator (Psalm 139:13–16)."
If God hates abortion, why does He allow miscarriages?
What about Gods test for unfaithfull wife the bitter drink that causes abortion
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
This conclusion depends on a materialistic fatalism where every single action and reaction in the universe is predictable by science, going all the way back to the Big Bang, to which living organisms are also subject due to the electrochemical nature of our brains. Under this view, every action, thought and feeling we have can be readily predicted well ahead of time by science. It is not a worldview I subscribe to, though I do fully understand how such a viewpoint, when including God in the picture as the Creator, makes Him a monster. I believe that we have true free will in our intentions and thoughts.
I disagree that my conclusion depends on materialistic fatalism. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. Can you explain why you think it does?

Remember, I did not claim that anything is predestined or subject to destiny.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
My wife and I used birth control and we also welcomed six children into our family. There are many Christians, including millions of Catholics, who believe they should not use birth control and should allow God to send them the children he wants them to have. I don't know anything about "Quiverfulls", but the idea of not using contraception in marriage is certainly not insane.
I guess that depends on whether you want to have sex a lot, but don't want more than a few kids. But, all in all, I think that family planning is a good thing for everyone, not just the couple involved. Unplanned pregnancies are often not good for anyone involved.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I disagree that my conclusion depends on materialistic fatalism. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. Can you explain why you think it does?

Remember, I did not claim that anything is predestined or subject to destiny.
Forgive me if I read too much into your post, but the common argument I run across, and which I interpreted your post to imply, goes something like this:

God created everything, including the rules by which the universe functions. Everything in the universe is subject to these rules. Thanks to these rules, we can predict every physical/chemical/energetic reaction that happens from the Big Bang onward. By seeing the complex chain of causality, we can therefore determine what the future will look like, down to each state of each individual quark at any given point in timespace. The consciousness of living beings is simply an amalgam of chemical and electrical signals and reactions. Because of this, we can predict exactly what an organism will do in any given instance based upon the sum total of previous reactions the organism has had to its surrounding environment or even to its own inner world of consciousness. Since this is all completely predictable, organisms therefore do not have any actual free will, as their actions are predictable and boil down to purely physical phenomena which we can analyze and for which we can trace the chain of causality. Therefore, if God created the universe, every single one of our actions, thoughts, sins, virtues, personal characteristics, etc. was determined in advance by the fundamental rules underpinning the universe. Therefore, based on the sheer fact of how God designed the universe, it was an inevitability that we would sin and run afoul of God, and so God had already forced Adam and Eve to make their decision to sin from the very moment that He created the universe.
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
I guess that depends on whether you want to have sex a lot, but don't want more than a few kids. But, all in all, I think that family planning is a good thing for everyone, not just the couple involved. Unplanned pregnancies are often not good for anyone involved.

My church is not oppossed to birth control for married couples. They give guiding principles and the couple decides for themselves. Guiding principles such as, 1) children are a blessing and are an important purpose of marriage, 2) we need to be able to care for our children, 3) mother's emotional and physical health are important, 4) we should not "selfishly" limit the number of children, 5) sex is not just for procreation, it's important to have it even if you don't want more children, 6) we shouldn't judge each other because we think someone had "too many" or "too few" kids, and 7) it's a personal decision between the couple and God.

As I put all of those ideas together in my marriage, we stopped at 6 kids, which is a large family by most people's standards, but we also used birth control along the way and after we were done. I felt inspired that each child was supposed to be in our home and inspired that we were to have no more.

My oldest son and his wife decided to stop at three kids. Then she got pregnant with an IUD. Then a few years later, she got pregnant again with an IUD. This is a case where God said, you think you're done, but you're not.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Since this is all completely predictable, organisms therefore do not have any actual free will, as their actions are predictable and boil down to purely physical phenomena which we can analyze and for which we can trace the chain of causality.
This is the only part I would have any issue with, and it's a tiny issue. Apparently at the quantum level things happen which aren't predictable.
But I don't think that those things matter to the concept of free will, because while they might not be predictable they aren't controllable either.
I can see many things that drive our thoughts, choices, and behavior. None are really within our control. So free will only exists as an illusion created by our inability to perceive the causes of our will.
Tom
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We did it to ourselves with the Fall. We could have become more than the merely natural animals we were and are, but we rejected God's offer.
First of all, there's no Fall in Genesis.

The Garden story makes no mention of sin, original sin, a Fall of Man, death entering the world, disobedience, or the need of a redeemer. There can't be, since when Eve ate the fruit, God had deliberately denied her knowledge of good and evil, so she was wholly incapable of forming an evil ('sinful') intention. Exactly the same is true of Adam when he ate the fruit. (Nor did the snake tell any lies.) Further, God clearly states his reasons for chucking them out of the Garden in Genesis 3:

22 Then the Lord said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and live forever" ─ 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden.
There's a thread on this >here<. But the main thing is, if you disagree, quote the relevant words of Genesis, and not the NT, which is perhaps a thousand years later than the story.

Second, God's attitude to abortion is set out in Hosea 13:

16 Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
That is, abortion and infanticide are not topics that fuss [him].
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
We did it to ourselves with the Fall. We could have become more than the merely natural animals we were and are, but we rejected God's offer.
So... are the more "merely natural" animals of this world free from naturally aborted fetuses? Or are they also affected by "the fall?"

Unfortunately, if they were affected by this supposed "fall of man"... then God has one hell of an idea of fairness. Punishment all around... even for those who did nothing. And yes, if you call something out as "punishment" then that strictly implies that a standard of "fairness" (justice, equity etc.) is in play.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
So... are the more "merely natural" animals of this world free from naturally aborted fetuses? Or are they also affected by "the fall?"

Unfortunately, if they were affected by this supposed "fall of man"... then God has one hell of an idea of fairness. Punishment all around... even for those who did nothing. And yes, if you call something out as "punishment" then that strictly implies that a standard of "fairness" (justice, equity etc.) is in play.
Of course animals miscarry, and they have since long before humans came on the scene. If I were to fit Genesis into historical chronology (which I doubt is meant to be possible as the Creation story teaches spiritual rather than scientific truth), I would say that God gave mankind the option to obey His command to not eat from one ordinary tree (contrary to gow most people read Genesis, and as Christians have been saying since at least the 400's AD there was nothing special about the Tree of Knowledge) and live in peace, innocence and holiness. We refused that offer, so instead of being transformed and elevated, we remained where we were in.terms of our physical infirmities.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
You two are absolutely correct. We are not held responsible for Adam's and Eve's sin. However, their choice determined the direction of those who came after them. Americans today had nothing whatsoever to do with the American Revolution, yet we live in a reality determined by the decisions of our forebears, and how they thought and acted influences what we think and do in turn.

You are making the assumption that there ever was an Adam and Eve.
Which is unlikely in the extreme.

But it is true, that to some extent we are all influenced by those who went before.
But we do not ever take on their guilt or their praises.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
You are making the assumption that there ever was an Adam and Eve.
Which is unlikely in the extreme.

But it is true, that to some extent we are all influenced by those who went before.
But we do not ever take on their guilt or their praises.


I agree, I believe Adam and Eve are fictional characters, as is the Biblical god.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
You are making the assumption that there ever was an Adam and Eve.
Which is unlikely in the extreme.

But it is true, that to some extent we are all influenced by those who went before.
But we do not ever take on their guilt or their praises.
Even if there were no two original humans who birthed the rest of the human race, the point is not disproven. It doesn't matter who the first people were who fell and sinned, the important part is that the first people fell and sinned, and we have been doing the same thing ever since.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Even if there were no two original humans who birthed the rest of the human race, the point is not disproven. It doesn't matter who the first people were who fell and sinned, the important part is that the first people fell and sinned, and we have been doing the same thing ever since.
BUT if like most people you accept evolution there is no such thing as the 'first' human. So there could be no fall and sin.
 
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