How are these Great Beings explained?

adrian009 said:

Why not in your opinion?

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Well OK - let me see - he talked a lot (a world record 16 hour sermon is claimed), wrote compulsively, had weird ideas about sex and marriage and claimed extraordinary mystical experiences in which the writings, sayings and sex stuff were divinely revealed to him...diagnosis - delusional! Agreed or not?

And BTW, if we are including conviction and imprisonment as evidence against genuine messiah-ship then both Jesus and Baha'u'llah are out too aren't they? Jesus was also accused of tax evasion you might recall.

Anyway, if Moon's record of prolific writing, mystical experience, atypical sexuality and circumstantiality (inability to get to the point despite talking for 16 hours) is evidence of narcissism and dishonesty, what is Baha'u'llah's prolific writing, mystical experiences, and atypical sex and marriage ideas evidence of?

Vinayaka said:

As for the medicine/religion analogy, I was just countering the idea that teachers (not talking about devotees, or just ordinary folks like you and me) are also true or false. From that mindset, there is one teacher, and the rest are false. From my view, it's a continuum, as it is with professors, with adherents, etc. I don't believe that there is one guy who is infallible, and the rest of us fallible. But again, that's just my belief. Other people differ obviously.

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The infallibility belief is not unique to the Baha'i faith of course but is there in all the Abrahamic Faiths. The Abrahamics will rightly revere Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. It makes total sense when considering the nature of God but that's just my belief and opinion. Having got that off my chest I don't find it helpful to use the word infallible too much because it shuts down discussions and creates barriers where they need not exist.

I was wondering about quality control with gurus. We have standards and expectations in medicine. We have centralised bodies to ensure those standards are being met and appropriate disciplinary measures are taken when our colleagues cross the line.

Do we need such measures in religion. The Catholics have learnt hard, painful lessons when lines are crossed and instead of dealing with matters in a just, appropriate, and transparent matter, they simply sweep it under the carpet.

So how about gurus? What is in place to ensure that gurus teachings are appropriate and not damaging to their followers? What measures ensure they do not sexually or financially exploit those who would place their trust in them?

Vinayaka said:

In South Sudan, 1.5 million people are in danger of dying of starvation. I can bet there are a few who are bucking it up, cheering up others in their camp, providing spiritual nourishment, and more. I don't think what happened to your prophet is anything all that special. In fact, back then, I suspect it was rather common.

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Certainly there are. Wouldn't it make sense to have better and more effective international agencies that can meet needs in times like this.

Vinayaka said:

I just don't see the jump from those situations to saying we can live in freedom because of it. I don't see how that one situation leads to ours. Are you suggesting that if he hadn't done that. we'd all be not living in freedom? Certainly most would view that as folly. There are millions of other events that contributed to the relative freedom humanity has today.

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Baha'is refer to what is happening in the world generally as the greater plan of God and what the Baha'is are doing as the lesser plan. Its all part of the globalisation and spiritualisation of humanity. What happens spiritually is closely aligned to what happens materially though it can be hard to see. Baha'is consider Baha'u'llah's coming a vital aspect to humanities spiritual development, as He is God's Messenger for today. When Jesus came he had next to no disciples at the time of His Crucifixion. Now His influence is great. Only time will reveal the true reality of Baha'u'llah's message.

siti said:

Well OK - let me see - he talked a lot (a world record 16 hour sermon is claimed), wrote compulsively, had weird ideas about sex and marriage and claimed extraordinary mystical experiences in which the writings, sayings and sex stuff were divinely revealed to him...diagnosis - delusional! Agreed or not?

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In regards to the 16 hour sermon, I would look at the quality, not the quantity. Baha'u'llah revealed one his most important works, the Kitab-i-Iqan (over 200 pages) in less than three days. It is an exposition of the unity of religion.

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

You can read it yourself if you really want to consider His sanity. I've seen the writings of people that really insane so His writings don't appear to be those of a madman. Maybe He meets the criteria for another rare disorder you can find on the internet like Gerchwind's syndrome.

Baha'u'llah allegedly revealed over 100 volumes of works, either in His own writing or recorded by a secretary.

We don't know how much Jesus revealed but in the gospel of John it is written:

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen
John 21:25

Baha'u'llah's three wives would look unusual from a Western perspective but was entirely consistent with his culture. Ultimately be brought a religion that prescribed monogamy, specifically a marriage between a man and a woman.

Jesus never married and was celibate. However King David had 24 wives, Moses 2 wives and we could go over quite a list of spiritually outstanding men in the OT who had many wives. Do they all have mental disorders or were immoral?

Baha'u'llah did claim His revelation was from God and His mission began when He was in the Siyah-Chal.

Síyáh-Chál - Wikipedia

However Jesus may have had a similar experience when he was baptised.

Matthew 3:13-17

Jesus appears to have had many mystical experiences including the transfiguration.
Matthew 17:1-8

Were they psychotic experiences? If so we should include Daniel and many of the OT prophets too.

siti said:

Anyway, if Moon's record of prolific writing, mystical experience, atypical sexuality and circumstantiality (inability to get to the point despite talking for 16 hours) is evidence of narcissism and dishonesty, what is Baha'u'llah's prolific writing, mystical experiences, atypical sex and marriage ideas, and propensity for talking at great length evidence of?

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You are thinking about tangential thinking where they never get to the point. It can be a symptom of mania. Circumstantiality, they do eventually get to the point, but usually well within 16 hours. Another word is being long winded so can be a typical characteristic of people that has nothing to do with mental illness.

Thought disorder - Wikipedia

What was atypical about Moon's sexuality?

I agree being convicted by the authorities is meaningless, unless we know why and what the evidence was. David Koresh would have been convicted if he had lived. Should he be consider innocent because Jesus was?

I don't think we have enough yet to get Moon, Baha'u'llah, or Jesus over the line in regards a psychiatric diagnosis. Its not looking quite so good for Moon admittedly but go on.

adrian009 said:

I agree being convicted by the authorities is meaningless, unless we know why and what the evidence was.

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And yet you chose to mention Moon's conviction for tax evasion as evidence against his Messiahship? In fact the case involved unpaid taxes of a little over $7000 over three years - below the threshhold for criminal charges - it was quite widely agreed (among those who were unbiased and familiar with case and senate sub-committe chaired by Orrin Hatch) that the prosecution was religiously-motivated and the trial should never have happened - not too dissimilar from Pilate's thoughts on the Jesus case - don't you think? Lots of interesting parallels...makes you wonder whether we are really talking about commonalities among human experiences, rather than manifestations of divinity, doesn't it?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I note a poor understanding of the case of Shoghi Effendi.

Again this is available, I need not explain it here.

Regards Tony

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I wrote nothing in particular about Shoghi Effendi so how could I have got him wrong?

What did I write that was wrong?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

You ask for another Great Being, but reject those that have already come and at the same time expect your children will not be predudiced by your truth.

Strange.

Regards Tony

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Tony, the prejudice is all yours. imo.

Vinayaka said:

Yes, but no doubt for those remaining, they've reconciled and come to some sort of mutual consensus one way or another. All groups and faiths have controversy, although some folks like to portray their organisation as pure, peerless, and without any controversy from beginning to now. Clearly that wasn't the case here.

In dharmic faiths the seat of authority is passed to the most able, and not by bloodlines. But then there are no bloodlines, like in Catholicism today.

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Christians have also portrayed Jesus as having close family ties. Just not true. His family must have felt extreme embarrassment by his visit to Nazareth, and his response when his mother and brothers congregated outside of Magdalenes (?) house to speak with him shows his detachment from family.
Mark {3:34} And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! {3:35} For whosoever shall do the will of God,

the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Further, since Magdalene, Salome and some other women were the only ones with the guts to follow Jesus right through to execution, watching 'from afar', John's picture of Jesus's mother and that 'loving disciple' watching from the base of the cross has to be an absolute fabrication..... the soldiers would have kicked and beaten them away from the area anyway.

People who asked too many questions or found too much evidence about Christianity's wrinkles suffered horrific deaths, very quickly, and a couple of recent responses to my posts leave me wondering about what could happen to any who migt dig around in the history of bahai in a bahai world............. after all, they would think that they were protecting God's plan, and were doing righteous and 'spiritual' things. Bbrrrrrr........... *shivers*

siti said:

I'm not sure what you are saying here...do you mean if its just something we dreamed up its bad - or good?

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If it would be a religion that we dreamed up, then I think that it would be bad. And the 'we' that is my generation, now at the end of our time, have made so many dreadful mistakes that it must be a kid's kids who make the decisions; of course we most of us think that those folks are quite incapable, but they are in fact the only ones with the 'clean-slate' and record.

From my POV I reckon acknowledging that religion is 'something we dreamed up' is the first step on the road to humanity's spiritual recovery. Maybe that's what our generation should be doing - some kind of 'religionists anonymous' group therapy where we sit in a circle and openly acknowledge our addiction to religious absurdity and confess to ourselves that, yes, it really was all just something that sprang from the minds of men. I think that, so far, is entirely consonant with deism.

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I agree so strongly with that. The whole of humanity needs counselling, whereby it has to recognise and admit to it's total bl--dy arrogance at even pretending that a God would favour just humans, that it left the World dirty and trashed, that it's conceit over discovering a better bomb or engine is utterly disgraceful, that it needs to completely rethink it's natural responsibilities; not spiritual responsibilities, but natural responsibilities.
Hmmm....... but then, our kids shouldn't have to own up to their parent's idiocy..... they'll just point back and declare, 'That was them!'

But then again, is that a bad thing? Is it a bad thing that some people had very vivid (possibly psychotic) visions of the greater reality 'personified'? It is one way of looking at it - poetic perhaps - but nonetheless potentially 'enlightening' (whatever that means) - as long as we don't imagine that its the only way of observing the multi-faceted multi-peaked mountain that is the, as yet barely explored, domain of reality? And as long as we don't imagine that our particular 'location' provides a view that is inherently or essentially any more (or less) 'true' than another.

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Ah ha! Any prophet who is liked is 'from God', any who is not liked is 'a nutter'. Humanity sees what it wants to see. The more I read about the bygone beliefs of the North American Indians so the more I respect their wonderful cultures. At one with nature, and as respecting of a hawk or wolf (messenger) as any person. And the Buddhists, many who claim atheism........... I expect that there are still many wonderful paths to a truly natural enlightenment without any need for a 'God on our side'.

Many viewpoints, many peaks, many ways to approach them, and many ways to fall down too - but the mountain is still the same 'one' and - despite earlier reports to the contrary - it ain't gonna move for us, we have to find our own (sometimes painful) way to it. (Proverbs of Rational Spirituality - chapter 1 verse 1 - actually its just something I dreamed up - although Francis Bacon beat me to it by a few hundred years: "Mahomet cald the Hill to come to him. And when the Hill stood still, he was neuer a whit abashed, but said; If the Hill will not come to Mahomet, Mahomet wil go to the hil.").

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Yes..... our mountain will not move.
I didn't even see my mountain until I was in my early 40's, and I knew then that it would be a long long trudge to get near it, let alone try to climb it's lower steps.
It's not that the person before that time was so bad, he was just so ignorant and empty. Embarrassing really.

Did you write a book about this?
Is 'Proverbs of Rational Spirituality' yours?

Do tell us more, please.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Quick example, Christ said Love one Another,

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Yeshua was speaking to his own people, and needing to bond them together.

............... the potency of this is to embrace all Humanity under One God as if they were your own Kin.

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Total goggledegook. He was speaking with his own. He had no interest in any others.

Put mans ideas into it and one idea has become that all are Lost except Christains and belief in a Doctrine made of man.

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As shown clearly, above.

The intent of Christs Message has been lost in regards to His all embracing Love.

Baha'u'llah has brought it back.

Regards Tony

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Is that what Bahauallah wrote?
Matthew {10:5} These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: {10:6} But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

There is the truth, written clear as day, that Yeshua was campaigning for his own, against the corruption of Israel's leaders and the Temple.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

You ask for another Great Being, but reject those that have already come and at the same time expect your children will not be predudiced by your truth.

Strange.

Regards Tony

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There have been 9000 Great Beings, and like me you either did not know or did not trust them?

For instance, did you accept Joseph Smith? And will your local children be prejudiced (by your truth) about that name because they grew up with or near to you?

All I would advise any youths that I know is that they should learn to search out, investigate, and test for truth. That's what I do. No prejudgement, just vigorous investigation..............

oldbadger said:

No.........
Have you really researched 'Right of God'?
I've had to prepare the following and copy-paste it to save time......
No poor laws there. Bahai just cannot have any that can match the Mosaic laws. I've already told you this. But the double-message of Bahai rings true about 'Right of God' payments. Let me show you just some............

But.... oh dear.....

And a little research produces the truth about its real purposes, certainly not to assist any poor.....

........................ I don't think so............... read on

Double Think................
And lastly.........
here it comes again, that 'spiritual' thing that no Bahai has yet managed to explain.

and..............

Spiritual............. yeah, really?
If any want to peruse some real poor laws from the OT, just ask and I'll list a few. Genuine poor laws for the cohesion of the preople, and as imoportant as all the other laws. Bahai just does not provide such consistent focus.imo.

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It would be useful to have you outline some of the laws Moses outlined for the welfare of the poor.

The right of God is one of the laws amidst many others that will be used for the welfare of the poor for a future civilisation.

The mere act of voluntarily sacrifcing our wealth for the greater good of the community does have spiritual significance.

The Baha'i Faith as with the Hebrew people needed money for infrastructure, buildings, and temples. Whether at the level of the tribe, nation building, or a world civilisation priorities need to be establshed at every stage of development.

oldbadger said:

No I'm not.............. Moses was quite clear about his laws and their impact upon the sexuality of the people.
And the Mosaic laws were much much more relaxed than Bahai over many sexual issues, as briefly described.

And sexual abominations were all connected with actions which could wipe out whole masses of folks very quickly...... so laws were layed down to keep the Israelites strong, healthy and successful.

Those risks are somewhat reduced since Gay marriage is a closed partnership as safe as Hetero-marriage and we don't need the children.

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Perhaps you would like to outline specific laws to make your point.

oldbadger said:

You haven't even touched upon Female homosexual marriage, or bisexuality, or polyamory, the latter of course which was practiced by Bahauallah, after the Bab's laws were revealed. Wow!

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I've actually covered all of those points in the last few days.

You sound like you know a lot about the laws the Bab revealed, but do you really? What did the Bab reveal about marriage, and were the laws ever applied during the Babi dispensation? If not why not? Were the Bab's laws applicable to the Baha'i era.

Carlita said:

How do you separate me from the rest of humanity that need a system to follow their own belief system?

If the problem is the people, religions like Buddhism and Hinduism does not need to point to the abrahamic god in order for people to follow the currect religion That encourages them towards their faith not away from it.

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The world is in need of more spirituality, better morals and virtues. Whatever helps achieve this is worthy of consideration. You may be contributing your share of goodness but perhaps we need much more.

Vinayaka said:

Really now? Hindus didn't see that as progress at all. I saw it as an offshoot that suited the needs of many. When something new develops as a slightly different alternative, it's good, because it fills a need for certain souls. That's not really a progression. But i understand also why you would think it is, as 'progressive' is part of your central doctrine. I think 'alternative' would be a far better, and more accurate word.

The same process is there today within Sanatana Dharma. A new teacher (Guru) comes along and many people like the teaching, and a new sect develops. At the same time, many don't see a need to change, and stick with the tried and true. It's a continuous process.

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Clearly a great many people did feel Buddha's Teachings met a need that wasn't being met at the time, so almost by definition that represents a progression for them. Moving from the Christianity to the Baha'i faith represented a progression for me, not merely an alternative.

You must have some ideas about why the change. My Faith doesn't specify to my knowledge that there was such a progression, but I presume there was. Its just another theory to explore and test out.

I recall you mentioned earlier in the thread about the continuous process within Santana Dharma and of course if they were truly able to have the direct mystical experiences and revelations from God or the spiritual realm we wouldn't need these other maniifestations, especially not the Abrahamic Ones. But we would need to examine the life and teachings of a guru to answer that question, don't you think?

loverofhumanity said:

I don’t think so. If all the people for instance carried out the principle of ahimsa then we wouldn’t have wars and a lot of other problems such as substance abuses. Anything which is any form of abuse on the body or humanity would be lessened or eliminated. The same with love. If everyone loved one another then wars and evil things would not exist.

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Those two alone, if accepted by all, would do 100 times more than all the other ideas about religion. You could get rid of God/not God, Abrahamic/Dharmic, the silly best leader competition, and more. So there is a lot to stop.

loverofhumanity said:

If everyone was spiritually advanced we wouldn’t have the problems we have now. I think that’s the main point here.

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And my point is that we're not. The Hindu view is that there are young souls and old souls. God is constantly emanating new souls, and by definition, they are unlearned. An analogy is a single lifetime. Should we really expect mature behaviour from a wee child? So a lot of souls have to 'grow up', and it's unrealistic, in my view, to expect it to happen quickly. Over time, sure, but then there are always more fools to replace those ones.

Vinayaka said:

Those two alone, if accepted by all, would do 100 times more than all the other ideas about religion. You could get rid of God/not God, Abrahamic/Dharmic, the silly best leader competition, and more. So there is a lot to stop.

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I agree with you that religion nowadays has become an unimportant competition of who is the greatest rather than striving for things like ahimsa which would make a real difference to the world.

adrian009 said:

I was wondering about quality control with gurus. We have standards and expectations in medicine. We have centralised bodies to ensure those standards are being met and appropriate disciplinary measures are taken when our colleagues cross the line.

Do we need such measures in religion. The Catholics have learnt hard, painful lessons when lines are crossed and instead of dealing with matters in a just, appropriate, and transparent matter, they simply sweep it under the carpet.

So how about gurus? What is in place to ensure that gurus teachings are appropriate and not damaging to their followers? What measures ensure they do not sexually or financially exploit those who would place their trust in them?

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It's definitely a problem. Any person given power can abuse it, and no religion has been immune. I certainly don't see any solutions, other than the general trend of people to see all groups with far more suspicion than earlier. Buy wisely, as with consumerism. Buyer beware.

In the more traditional Hindu monasteries, there are some rules in place, such as always traveling in pairs, or groups, and the entire monastery being one gender and quite set apart from society.

adrian009 said:

Only time will reveal the true reality of Baha'u'llah's message.

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Indeed.