Two Deaths in Christianity

whirlingmerc · Nov 8, 2017

I take it as

First is physical end of this life
Second is being separated away from God forever in lake of fire

Psalm 88 a soul alone and living out the darkest of laments

Grandliseur · Nov 8, 2017

Fool said:
all die as a personality.

this is why most of christianity is a cult of personality.

majority rule isn't necessarily truth; otherwise Jesus would have been wrong per the pharisees, sadducees, and scribes.

do you suppose that God would destroy itself, if nothing can survive apart from it except in it's own delusions, it's own personality?

the Spirit of God isn't exclusive to a person. in fact, the OT teaches that the Spirit is ruach and a person is nephesh. the NT makes a distinction between the two too. One is eternal the other is temporal.

There is only the destruction of the individual, God is not affected. Though, you seem to believe so. That is a belief which I cannot comprehend; I have never heard this one before.
Why should the destruction of an individual affect God in any way at all, except perhaps to make him happy if something vile has been destroyed?!

Fool · Nov 8, 2017

Grandliseur said:
There is only the destruction of the individual, God is not affected. Though, you seem to believe so

the form is destroyed, the Spirit isn't. created/formed things come into being, exist as a form for a while, and are destroyed.

Grandliseur said:
That is a belief which I cannot comprehend; I have never heard this one before.

sorry but i know not of what belief you refer to.

Grandliseur said:
Why should the destruction of an individual affect God in any way at all, except perhaps to make him happy if something vile has been destroyed?!

as the individual/person gives up it's desire, it's will, then it becomes more aware and more god like. it moves closer to communion with the Most High. these are the children of god, the peacemakers. the movement away from vanity is humbling.

kenosis

Fool · Nov 8, 2017

whirlingmerc said:
I take it as

First is physical end of this life
Second is being separated away from God forever in lake of fire

Psalm 88 a soul alone and living out the darkest of laments

God is a consuming fire and God is omnipresent.

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Grandliseur · Nov 8, 2017

Fool said:
sorry but i know not of what belief you refer to.

Yours!

I have my own belief system. In my reality, destruction happens.

Fool · Nov 8, 2017

Grandliseur said:
Yours!

I have my own belief system. In my reality, destruction happens.

in reality all created things are transformed from some other thing. something is lost but something gained in the changing.

something destroyed in order for something to be created and yet the prima materia is retained. you call it christ, some call it light. another calls it buddha.

what relevance is a name except to the one naming. a rose by any other name still smells as sweet.

Grandliseur · Nov 8, 2017

Fool said:
a rose by any other name still smells as sweet.

Or, not at all.

The ever returning question is always, what authority does a person base his or her beliefs on?
Atheists - if truly so - think nothing remains; you have your opinions, I have mine, and so forth.
I cannot demonstrate to you or others that I am right, all I have is scripture and the rottening corpse of the dead being that demonstrates what I think is reality, but which to you was simply a temporary container of the essence of this being that then may be reborn. (if I understand you correctly)

Fool · Nov 8, 2017

Grandliseur said:
Or, not at all.

The ever returning question is always, what authority does a person base his or her beliefs on?
Atheists - if truly so - think nothing remains; you have your opinions, I have mine, and so forth.
I cannot demonstrate to you or others that I am right, all I have is scripture and the rottening corpse of the dead being that demonstrates what I think is reality, but which to you was simply a temporary container of the essence of this being that then may be reborn. (if I understand you correctly)

Jeremiah 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

being merciful doesn't disallow for another chance, and another, and another.

Matthew 18:22
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

information, intelligence, cannot be created or destroyed it just transfers to something else.

Grandliseur · Nov 8, 2017

Fool said:
Jeremiah 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

being merciful doesn't disallow for another chance, and another, and another.

Matthew 18:22
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

information, intelligence, cannot be created or destroyed it just transfers to something else.

Isaiah 55:6-7 . . .. 7 Let the wicked man leave his way, and the harmful man his thoughts; and let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy upon him, and to our God, for he will forgive in a large way.

Isaiah 26:10 10 Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah.

Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

james bond · Nov 8, 2017

Fool said:
the personality only lives once. the Spirit is eternal.

Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." = Melchizedek

But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." = John the Baptist

angels/spirits ascend and descend upon the son of man.

Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?

>>F: the personality only lives once. the Spirit is eternal.<<

I think the personality lives on. It's the physical self that dies. We witness it daily.

Fool · Nov 9, 2017

Grandliseur said:
Isaiah 55:6-7 . . .. 7 Let the wicked man leave his way, and the harmful man his thoughts; and let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy upon him, and to our God, for he will forgive in a large way.

Isaiah 26:10 10 Though the wicked one should be shown favor, he simply will not learn righteousness. In the land of straightforwardness he will act unjustly and will not see the eminence of Jehovah.

Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

great quotes but none of them promote idolatry to jesus or christianity and the last one reinforces positive actions.

Fool · Nov 9, 2017

james bond said:
>>F: the personality only lives once. the Spirit is eternal.<<

I think the personality lives on. It's the physical self that dies. We witness it daily.

the physical self is conditioned to be the personality by it's experiences in the incarnation.

the Spirit is not a person, no more than God is a person. absorption back into God, or Kenosis, requires letting go of the ego.

Grandliseur · Nov 9, 2017

Fool said:
great quotes but none of them promote idolatry to jesus or christianity and the last one reinforces positive actions.

They also demonstrate that you do not keep on getting chances and chances after having demonstrated an total unwillingness to be obedient.

Fool · Nov 9, 2017

Grandliseur said:
They also demonstrate that you do not keep on getting chances and chances after having demonstrated an total unwillingness to be obedient.

Ephesians 2:4
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

time is irrelevant to the omnipresent most high.

a thousand years are but a day and day but a thousand years, one is no different than another.

atanu · Nov 10, 2017

Fool said:
What are the two deaths being referred to in revelation?

And can Christ come to those who have experienced the second death?

1st Death
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

2nd Death
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I understand that this concept is stated in Upanishads in the following way:

He, who found it here, possesses the truth,
For him who has not found it here, it is great destruction,
In every being, the wise being perceives it,
and departing out of this world, becomes immortal.

— Kena Upanishad 2.12 - 2.13, Translated by Paul Deussen

Fool · Nov 10, 2017

atanu said:
I understand that this concept is stated in Upanishads in the following way:

He, who found it here, possesses the truth,
For him who has not found it here, it is great destruction,
In every being, the wise being perceives it,
and departing out of this world, becomes immortal.

— Kena Upanishad 2.12 - 2.13, Translated by Paul Deussen

namaste

atanu · Nov 10, 2017

Fool said:
namaste

Thank you and namaste.

Dawnofhope · Nov 12, 2017

Fool said:
What are the two deaths being referred to in revelation?

And can Christ come to those who have experienced the second death?

1st Death
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

2nd Death
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Death is simply a metaphor for disbelief in God's Chosen Messenger (The Christ) and being deprived of His Teachings, as opposed to eternal life for the faithful believer. Being deprived of the spiritual teachings of God's Message results in anguish that is like hellfire.

Then we have metaphors for following false teachings such as idolaters.

The first death is disbelief in Christ. The second death is disbelief in Him who is the returned Christ.

The one thousand years represents a religion dipsensation or era, for example from Moses to Christ. With revelation it is the era from Christ to His return.

Its pretty simple when you break it down.

Two Deaths in Christianity

whirlingmerc

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Grandliseur

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Dawnofhope

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