Which is Greater?

Fool said:

John 1:3

Genesis 1:1

Neither passage is referring to Jesus. Jesus was begotten. The Spirit of God was not.


God is not a person. God is greater.

Click to expand...

I disagree with your interpretation of John 1:3 and would contend that the Word described by John can only be the Lord Jesus Christ. The 14th verse of that same chapter makes that clear to me.

I also believe that Genesis 1 describes only God the Father, however Genesis 2 and onward describes the Lord Jesus Christ acting with the Father in tandem.

Jesus, as a mortal Man, was begotten, but before He entered into mortality He was the Great Jehovah, that Being who created the Earth as well as all other things. He also planted a garden in Eden and placed the first Man in it and made covenants with the human family.

God is most assuredly a person, otherwise how could the Lord Jesus Christ describe attributes of His person during the Sermon on the Mount or counsel His follower to come to "know" God the Father?

Why would you consider the bestowal of "personhood" upon God as a limiter of His greatness?

shunyadragon said:

You never said it? You did not need to. What is it based on?

Click to expand...

The witness of the Holy Spirit is independent of any and all scripture, ancient or modern.

shunyadragon said:

The Bible and the Book of Mormon are ancient scripture of poor provenance. The Bible and the Book of Mormon lack supporting evidence to support authorship, and dating when they were written.

Click to expand...

Are you saying that if the authorship of the books in the Bible and Book of Mormon could be proven, you'd believe in and follow what those records taught?

If they had been conveniently dated, you'd know that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God?

I do not believe you would. I don't believe there is any evidence that could convince a person of the truthfulness of these things outside the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Prestor John said:

The witness of the Holy Spirit is independent of any and all scripture, ancient or modern.

I do not believe you would. I don't believe there is any evidence that could convince a person of the truthfulness of these things outside the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

You cited scripture in your argument in the previous post. Therefore you consider scripture in support of your argument.

The problem of claiming a 'witness of the Holy Spirit' is that many diverse conflicting beliefs make this claim, and of course they disagree.

Are you saying that if the authorship of the books in the Bible and Book of Mormon could be proven, you'd believe in and follow what those records taught?

Click to expand...

Could be proven?!?!? Unlikely.

Simply the books are of poor provenance, and the authors unknown, and the date of editing, compilation and redaction is presently unknown.

If they had been conveniently dated, you'd know that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God?

Click to expand...

I do not deal in hypotheticals.

Prestor John said:

I disagree with your interpretation of John 1:3 and would contend that the Word described by John can only be the Lord Jesus Christ. The 14th verse of that same chapter makes that clear to me.

I also believe that Genesis 1 describes only God the Father, however Genesis 2 and onward describes the Lord Jesus Christ acting with the Father in tandem.

Jesus, as a mortal Man, was begotten, but before He entered into mortality He was the Great Jehovah, that Being who created the Earth as well as all other things. He also planted a garden in Eden and placed the first Man in it and made covenants with the human family.

God is most assuredly a person, otherwise how could the Lord Jesus Christ describe attributes of His person during the Sermon on the Mount or counsel His follower to come to "know" God the Father?

Why would you consider the bestowal of "personhood" upon God as a limiter of His greatness?

Click to expand...

the logos isn't a single person apart from everything else and the idea is from greek origin and also hindu as prajapati.

God and Spirit existed and God said let there be, this is the word. All manifested, created things came to be by the Word of God as seen in Genesis 1 and God said, spoke, worded.

logos isn't a single individual; except for some christians. logos is the the thing that all created things are formed from.

as it states from John 1:3 all things; including Jesus, were made by it and apart from it nothing exists because there is no other. this is how jesus claimed to be within the Father and the Father in him. It is omnipresent in all; although all do not understand and accept it. Know thyself, I AM that i am.

i wasn't made from Jesus. i was made of christ; john 21:15. christ is the light of the world. i am the light of the world, a city, the new jerusalem set on a hill.

i, the person, was born of fire and water, the spirit. john 3:8
god is my father malachi 2:10, matthew 6:9, acts 17:28, 1 John 4:4

jesus was my elder brother. i do not practice idolatry to a man, any begotten thing, to a sibling, a family member, et al.

Prestor John said:

Jesus, as a mortal Man, was begotten, but before He entered into mortality He was the Great Jehovah, that Being who created the Earth as well as all other things. He also planted a garden in Eden and placed the first Man in it and made covenants with the human family.

Click to expand...

jesus was adam the son of god. the first man raised a living soul and the second man raised a quickening spirit.

adam fell. jesus rose.

shunyadragon said:

You cited scripture in your argument in the previous post. Therefore you consider scripture in support of your argument.

Click to expand...

When did I cite scripture to you?

Could you please show me where I did that, because I honestly don't remember me doing that.

shunyadragon said:

The problem of claiming a 'witness of the Holy Spirit' is that many diverse conflicting beliefs make this claim, and of course they disagree.

Click to expand...

The Holy Spirit is a testator of truth and truth can be found in every belief system, even if the systems as a whole disagree.

If we could catalogue which concept within each system of belief was confirmed by the Holy Spirit, we would find the baseline of truth that connects them all.

shunyadragon said:

Could be proven?!?!? Unlikely.

Click to expand...

What is unlikely?

That they could be proven or that you'd believe in them if they were proven?

Nothing outside the witness of the Holy Spirit could authenticate the truths found in the scriptures.

I contend that if an angel were to stand before you and testify of the truth that is in Christ, you would still not believe.

You could hear the voice of God from Heaven claim that Jesus is His Son and the Savior of Mankind and you still would not follow His dictates.

If you are unable to abide the most basic of witnesses, such as the one from the Holy Spirit, then none of these greater witnesses will affect you.

shunyadragon said:

Simply the books are of poor provenance, and the authors unknown, and the date of editing, compilation and redaction is presently unknown.

Click to expand...

None of which affect the truth found within them.

The universe is not going to lower its standards for how spiritual truths are conveyed just because you fail to meet the minimum requirements.

shunyadragon said:

I do not deal in hypotheticals.

Click to expand...

I'm sure you pick and choose which hypotheticals you're willing to deal with.

Fool said:

the logos isn't a single person apart from everything else and the idea is from greek origin and also hindu as prajapati.

God and Spirit existed and God said let there be, this is the word. All manifested, created things came to be by the Word of God as seen in Genesis 1 and God said, spoke, worded.

logos isn't a single individual; except for some christians. logos is the the thing that all created things are formed from.

as it states from John 1:3 all things; including Jesus, were made by it and apart from it nothing exists because there is no other. this is how jesus claimed to be within the Father and the Father in him. It is omnipresent in all; although all do not understand and accept it. Know thyself, I AM that i am.

i wasn't made from Jesus. i was made of christ; john 21:15. christ is the light of the world. i am the light of the world, a city, the new jerusalem set on a hill.

i, the person, was born of fire and water, the spirit. john 3:8
god is my father malachi 2:10, matthew 6:9, acts 17:28, 1 John 4:4

jesus was my elder brother. i do not practice idolatry to a man, any begotten thing, to a sibling, a family member, et al.

Click to expand...

You will continue to fall short as long as you incorporate these pagan ideals with the truth of Christ.

The Word created all things, was with God and was God and then took upon itself flesh and walk among Man.

Jesus Christ is the Word as well as God and He also has been with God the Father since before the beginning of this world.

The author of our salvation is Jesus Christ. He is our Lord and God. The Savior of Mankind and Redeemer of the world.

Fool said:

jesus was adam the son of god. the first man raised a living soul and the second man raised a quickening spirit.

adam fell. jesus rose.

Click to expand...

Jesus took upon Himself the consequences of Adam's Fall and stood in Adam's place when He suffered them.

Jesus created all things and placed Man upon the Earth and promised Man that He Himself would redeem all Men through His suffering.

Prestor John said:

You will continue to fall short as long as you incorporate these pagan ideals with the truth of Christ.

The Word created all things, was with God and was God and then took upon itself flesh and walk among Man.

Jesus Christ is the Word as well as God and He also has been with God the Father since before the beginning of this world.

The author of our salvation is Jesus Christ. He is our Lord and God. The Savior of Mankind and Redeemer of the world.

Click to expand...

God is not a respecter of persons, cultures, religions, sex, gender, birth order, ethnicity, nationality, et al. the logos is a idea that was incorporated into the christian faith. you'll need to take that up with the writer of the gospel called john.

Like God, the Truth, isn't partial. Those who try to make it partial, or divisive, are not the sheep because there are wolves that come as sheep.

Jesus refers to the children of God as either righteous or unrighteous, like the sheep vs the goats. the righteous do not practice idolatry. the righteous are servants to all, or other as self. the unrighteous only serve selves and familialism/tribalism.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Prestor John said:

Jesus took upon Himself the consequences of Adam's Fall and stood in Adam's place when He suffered them.

Jesus created all things and placed Man upon the Earth and promised Man that He Himself would redeem all Men through His suffering.

Click to expand...

jesus was adam the son of god as jesus was the son of god. only three people are referenced directly in the bible as the son of god. adam, melchizedek, jesus.

this is why jesus said before abraham i am. this is why jesus is a priest forever after melchizedek. it is a line of succession.

Prestor John said:

You will continue to fall short as long as you incorporate these pagan ideals with the truth of Christ.

The Word created all things, was with God and was God and then took upon itself flesh and walk among Man.

Jesus Christ is the Word as well as God and He also has been with God the Father since before the beginning of this world.

The author of our salvation is Jesus Christ. He is our Lord and God. The Savior of Mankind and Redeemer of the world.

Click to expand...

it will not matter who is pagan and who is christian in the end. these are just masks. it will be the works that will reveal the inner nature of a being. faith without works is like form without function, pretty is as pretty does.

Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 10:11
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Prestor John said:

When did I cite scripture to you?

Click to expand...

No, but you referred to scripture to support your case. That is the point and true.

The Holy Spirit is a testator of truth and truth can be found in every belief system, even if the systems as a whole disagree.

Click to expand...

The witness of every religion disagree based on they have the 'Truth' as you believe through the Spirit. Besides, your conflicting yourself here. All would not accept Christ as you describe him, but they believe their way is 'Truth.'.

If we could catalogue which concept within each system of belief was confirmed by the Holy Spirit, we would find the baseline of truth that connects them all.

Click to expand...

Only in terms of general them of progressive Revelation as believed by the Baha'i Faith. The way you are describing your belie in 'Truth,' and Christ is the only perfection this fundamentally a false assertion. The LDS Church you belong to does not acknowledge the Truth of Revelation beyond their own belie system. They do not even consistently recognize the knowledge of the science of evolution.

What is unlikely?

That they could be proven or that you'd believe in them if they were proven?

Click to expand...

Proof is so much of an illusion in this case that it is very, very, very unlikely you could ever prove the scripture off any religion.

Nothing outside the witness of the Holy Spirit could authenticate the truths found in the scriptures. The case of claiming the proof of a given scripture is even worse.

I contend that if an angel were to stand before you and testify of the truth that is in Christ, you would still not believe.

You could hear the voice of God from Heaven claim that Jesus is His Son and the Savior of Mankind and you still would not follow His dictates.

If you are unable to abide the most basic of witnesses, such as the one from the Holy Spirit, then none of these greater witnesses will affect you.

Click to expand...

Such contention as above are groundless in reason and logic.

The universe is not going to lower its standards for how spiritual truths are conveyed just because you fail to meet the minimum requirements.

Click to expand...

I believe this is your problem based on the exclusive nature o your claims and the fallible nature of humanity.

I'm sure you pick and choose which hypotheticals you're willing to deal with.

Click to expand...

I do not deal in hypotheticals in the manner you present them, nor do I ask others to do so.[/quote]

Prestor John said:

You will continue to fall short as long as you incorporate these pagan ideals with the truth of Christ.

The Word created all things, was with God and was God and then took upon itself flesh and walk among Man.

Jesus Christ is the Word as well as God and He also has been with God the Father since before the beginning of this world.

The author of our salvation is Jesus Christ. He is our Lord and God. The Savior of Mankind and Redeemer of the world.

Click to expand...

This clarifies your belief without the ambiguities you go round and round with your response to my posts.

Bold reflects in spades your view of those that believe differently.