God's Standard of Purity

InChrist · Nov 2, 2017

Jeremiahcp said:
I have never had an issue with God's standards being too high. Just petty, vain, egoistical, narcissistic, cruel, moronic and strangely human, but I don't ever recall thinking they were high standards. If anything they seem a bit low to me, as if "God" is a lazy underachiever.

Oh, okay. I appreciate that you shared your opinion and that you have no issue with God having standards. What standards do you think are just petty, vain, egoistical, narcissistic, cruel, moronic and strangely human? Which of those descriptions would you apply to the standard Jesus spoke of?

You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment...
Matt. 5:21-22

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.” Matt. 15:18-20

Windwalker · Nov 2, 2017

InChrist said:
I didn't start this thread with the intent to condone the idea of people measuring or judging each other. Or even to propose that God has a grading system. Basically, my point was that if we as humans have standards for ourselves, even with regard to the purity and cleanliness of the food we eat, then God as Creator certainly has the prerogative to have standards.

We set our standards rather arbitrarily or by mutual agreement. The standards are relative to the individual or the group. God doesn't set standards for himself. God is the standard itself by virtue of being Absolute. What I struggle with in your language is that you are humanizing God, attributing to him things like choices, prerogatives, values, standards, morals, ethics, tastes and preferences, likes and dislikes, attractions and revulsions, and such human dualistic structures - all of which are predicated on the existence of an ego, a sense of a separate individual self. None of this applies to God. To make it apply to God is anthropomorphizing, creating God in our own image. That's been the point I've been trying to make.

Upon further thought, I think I'd rather say that God isn't so much the standard, but rather the Goal. That's a little different. The standard is a sort of baseline acceptable mark. One can fall either below that standard, or above it, or exceed it. You can actually set a new standard, by repeatedly exceeding it. You cannot exceed God. So in reality, the standard for humans is being human. The height of our humanity is to realize God as the Goal, not the standard.

Add one last thought here, do you think our standards we set as humans should apply to your cat or your dog? Why then would God do that with us mere mortals? That seems rather irrational, doesn't it? But God as Goal, with an invitation to "come up hither", is not. Compassion and Love draw Life to itself. I'm sure you can find some verses that support that.

InChrist said:
I think these standards are based in and exist in His Being which is Love. So that anything which outside that love falls short.

But you see, that's the thing. Nothing is outside of that Love! It can't be. If something can exist outside of God, then God is not Absolute. God would be limited, "over there" somewhere outside. The only thing that creates that illusion of God outside our reality is our own minds which sees ourselves as separate from God, and from one another. I have experienced directly that veil of that illusion being ripped back in an instant, revealing the indescribable brilliance that Love shining through every object, through every soul, without exclusion. The only separation I have seen is in the minds of those who see themselves, who believe themselves to be separate. That separation may be felt by the person, but the Reality of it is that separation does not exist.

So in reality, it's not a "standard" to live up to. It's a Realization of the true Nature of Reality, which is God.

InChrist said:
I do believe that God loves all His creation and no one is excluded from His love, but the scriptures are clear than only those who desire to walk in the light and receive God are His children because Love cannot include those who desire the darkness and unloving practice evil or harmful deeds

All are God's children by virtue of being created by God. Not every person realizes that in themselves, and that is what these verses are attempting to express in the terms they do for the sake of conveying meaning to the listener, who have ears to hear without getting hung up trying to make these things strict definitions of the mechanics of these matters.

Where these "standards" come in, and I would actually prefer to call them "ways", is if the goal of the seeker is Unity with God, or "born again", then you have to remove the barriers and the obstacles that cause you to experience yourself as separate from God, and God separate from you. I like to put it that God is there the whole time, just waiting for us to be done doing whatever it is we are doing to try to find God. Our job is to remove the obstacles, and just let God be in us. The "standard" is a matter of opening to God, to get out of the way and let God be in us. Getting drunk out of your mind everyday is not getting out of the way, so the 'standard' is don't do that! It doesn't work.

InChrist said:
I find the thought...

My experience of that Absolute Perfection, is that there is no judgement as we judge ourselves or others. Only acceptance and a desire for us to realize that in ourselves and be Free

...questionable because while above you said we should not accept harmful conduct, here is seems you are saying no judgement or distinction between harm or love should be made. In other words , are you saying we should accept any behavior in ourselves or others without judgement even when it is harmful or dangerous? And are you saying Love/ God accepts anything?

No, it's not like that. We obviously should not accept violence against others in our world. But there are two different set of eyes we are talking about here. Human eyes, and the eyes of the Divine, so to speak. From the "God's-eye view", God does not judge based on human values systems. God sees the soul, as I said. All the crap we do in this world is relative to our plane of existence, or being. The human plane in this case. He's not Santa Claus who checks if you've been naughty or nice at the end of your life to determine if you get the golden airplane or a lump of coal.

Anything that is temporal, whether it is our sins or our good conducts as humans, is not where God judges us. One can have lived the most miserable of lives, been rotten to others, greedy and selfish, lashing out at the world though a broken life at the hands of an abusive parent, for instance. But in facing God what one encounters is not scorn and disapproval, but Absolute Love, Absolute Grace, Absolute Compassion. God is not merit based. There is nothing anyone can do to "measure up" (which would only promote pride), and there is nothing anyone can do merit Grace. God simply sees "you", naked, as you are, and fully Loves you. He doesn't see those things we see and punish ourselves with. It's not that "sin" is accepted by God. It's just that it is not seen or considered by God in the way we consider it for ourselves in our pursuit of finding that Unity with God. God does not see us, as we see ourselves. That is my point. And it is my experience.

InChrist said:
I find the idea of God's judgement to be a good thing, knowing it is based in Perfect Love because such Love includes justice for all.

And if that judgement is forgiveness, then how is it we worry so much about what God thinks? Isn't it really more our judgment of ourselves? We already condemn ourselves, and assume its God doing it. God isn't doing that. We are. If we can learn to love ourselves as God loves us, then we are free indeed.

InChrist said:
The scriptures reveal this to me and bring a peace that all things which are not loving, everything that is harmful to self and others is in the process of being cleansed and will at some point be entirely removed by God so that only the gold remains. I think it is important that people are aware of this, so as to turn from unloving things to Love.

For our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:29

While I agree with that verse, and I believe I loosely referenced it myself, the removing of the dross is our work, through being focused on God in our being. It is God as Goal, that shapes our will and intentions and actions towards removing those things which cause that sense of separation in ourselves. Once those are removed and we encounter God in his Being, in that radiant Light, then yes, all these things we held to melt away, are burned off in that Love. For that is the Nature of the Love, an all-consuming fire, where all sins we held to in ourselves are released by us, as we release ourselves into God.

InChrist · Nov 3, 2017

Windwalker said:
We set our standards rather arbitrarily or by mutual agreement. The standards are relative to the individual or the group. God doesn't set standards for himself. God is the standard itself by virtue of being Absolute. What I struggle with in your language is that you are humanizing God, attributing to him things like choices, prerogatives, values, standards, morals, ethics, tastes and preferences, likes and dislikes, attractions and revulsions, and such human dualistic structures - all of which are predicated on the existence of an ego, a sense of a separate individual self. None of this applies to God. To make it apply to God is anthropomorphizing, creating God in our own image. That's been the point I've been trying to make.

Add one last thought here, do you think our standards we set as humans should apply to your cat or your dog? Why then would God do that with us mere mortals? That seems rather irrational, doesn't it? But God as Goal, with an invitation to "come up hither", is not. Compassion and Love draw Life to itself. I'm sure you can find some verses that support that.

I don't think I've quite humanized God to the detailed degree that you are implying, nevertheless I believe in a Personal God. The Bible reveals that God is separate and distinct from His creation, existing before creation, a Personal, one of a kind Being who created human beings in His image. Certainly, even the greatest attribute of Love attests to the reality that God is relational and personal.

It's not irrational to have standards for dogs and cats. Most people while not expecting dogs or cats to behave as humans still have certain standards. People housebreak their pets and don't appreciate them messing in the house, chewing on furniture, eating food off counters, etc. Usually, dogs that bite, attack people, or maim and kill children or anyone end up being put down , if not by the owners, then the authorities.
People are referred to as sheep in God's Word and God/Jesus is the Shepherd. I believe that God has revealed standards for humanity in His word with consideration for our limited understanding and ability, not so much to lay on humans the burden of living up to them, but to draw people to Himself as Savior, the One who is complete and perfect or the Goal, as you've said.

Windwalker said:
But you see, that's the thing. Nothing is outside of that Love! It can't be. If something can exist outside of God, then God is not Absolute. God would be limited, "over there" somewhere outside. The only thing that creates that illusion of God outside our reality is our own minds which sees ourselves as separate from God, and from one another. I have experienced directly that veil of that illusion being ripped back in an instant, revealing the indescribable brilliance that Love shining through every object, through every soul, without exclusion. The only separation I have seen is in the minds of those who see themselves, who believe themselves to be separate. That separation may be felt by the person, but the Reality of it is that separation does not exist.

So in reality, it's not a "standard" to live up to. It's a Realization of the true Nature of Reality, which is God.

I have heard and read thoughts as yours before... "It seemed to me that the whole universe was singing the same song, throbbing with the same life, manifesting the same Essence. Every atom in everything, from the tiniest bacterium to the largest sun and farthest star, was an emanation from the same Source. All were part of the same great and only Reality. I was one with everything- " (Rabi R. Maharaj, Death of a Guru, pg. 96)

How do you know nothing exists outside of God/Love? That God is not a separate Being? Or that God would be limited? You say such separation is an illusion and you have experienced and realized this by seeing the brilliance of Love shining through everything. How can you be sure your perceptions are accurate? Or you are not seeing an illusion? The Bible claims to be God's revealed word and I believe it is for the purpose of giving accurate information about God we otherwise have no way of knowing because experience alone can be lacking or deceptive, especially when one ventures into the spiritual realm.

Windwalker said:
Anything that is temporal, whether it is our sins or our good conducts as humans, is not where God judges us. One can have lived the most miserable of lives, been rotten to others, greedy and selfish, lashing out at the world though a broken life at the hands of an abusive parent, for instance. But in facing God what one encounters is not scorn and disapproval, but Absolute Love, Absolute Grace, Absolute Compassion. God is not merit based. There is nothing anyone can do to "measure up" (which would only promote pride), and there is nothing anyone can do merit Grace. God simply sees "you", naked, as you are, and fully Loves you. He doesn't see those things we see and punish ourselves with. It's not that "sin" is accepted by God. It's just that it is not seen or considered by God in the way we consider it for ourselves in our pursuit of finding that Unity with God. God does not see us, as we see ourselves. That is my point. And it is my experience.

And if that judgement is forgiveness, then how is it we worry so much about what God thinks? Isn't it really more our judgment of ourselves? We already condemn ourselves, and assume its God doing it. God isn't doing that. We are. If we can learn to love ourselves as God loves us, then we are free indeed.

I agree there is nothing anyone can do to measure up, simply because we as creatures can never be the Creator God. It seems clear in the scriptures that the standards of God are given, not simply to show a better way, but more importantly to show people that we can't measure up, therefore the need of a Savior and the demonstration of God's love for all in providing One to make us free indeed.

My question for you is what about those who don't want unity with God, who want to remain immersed in sin and/or harmful damaging behavior toward self or others? You say we already judge or condemn ourselves and should learn to love ourselves. What about those who don't condemn the hurtful things they do or make any judgements at all when they beat their spouse or rape a child, steal from someone, or kick the dog each night? Suppose they see no need of forgiveness and do not want change because they love what they are doing?

Windwalker said:
While I agree with that verse, and I believe I loosely referenced it myself, the removing of the dross is our work, through being focused on God in our being. It is God as Goal, that shapes our will and intentions and actions towards removing those things which cause that sense of separation in ourselves. Once those are removed and we encounter God in his Being, in that radiant Light, then yes, all these things we held to melt away, are burned off in that Love. For that is the Nature of the Love, an all-consuming fire, where all sins we held to in ourselves are released by us, as we release ourselves into God.

It is somewhat confusing to me and contradictory that above you said there is nothing we can do to measure up (which I agree with) and now you've said ... removing the dross is our work. You also said... "you have to remove the barriers and the obstacles that cause you to experience yourself as separate from God, and God separate from you. I like to put it that God is there the whole time, just waiting for us to be done doing whatever it is we are doing to try to find God. Our job is to remove the obstacles, and just let God be in us."

I also believe God is there the whole time as the scriptures indicate and that anyone who receives Jesus Christ is then given the new life of Christ /God to dwell within them. Yet, you seem to be saying on the one hand that God is not separate from us while then saying it is our job to let God be in us. If God is already in human beings then why the need to let God be in us?

I realize that I have really not addressed each of the points or subjects in your post, but I am starting to feel overwhelmed with the length and amount to respond to. So if I missed something you feel is important, feel free to bring it up again. I'm also wondering if there is some was to narrow down the conversation or focus on one point at a time, rather than so much in each post. Any suggestions?

Windwalker · Nov 3, 2017

InChrist said:
I have heard and read thoughts as yours before... "It seemed to me that the whole universe was singing the same song, throbbing with the same life, manifesting the same Essence. Every atom in everything, from the tiniest bacterium to the largest sun and farthest star, was an emanation from the same Source. All were part of the same great and only Reality. I was one with everything- " (Rabi R. Maharaj, Death of a Guru, pg. 96)

That sounds pretty spot on to me. Slightly different as one would expect since we aren't the same person, but close enough to call it true. I should add something at this point, that the experience of something quite similar for me to this was not something I sought after. It was purely spontaneous, and set the path of my entire life ever since, going on four decades now. It was from here I entered into Christianity to try to find my way Home to it. The doorway into Christianity I found did not open to that, but instead took major steps backwards and in wrong directions altogether.

That the book above you reference is the story of some Hindu who converted to Christianity may apply to him and his needs, but very highly doubtful it would relate to me, BTW.

InChrist said:
How do you know nothing exists outside of God/Love? That God is not a separate Being? Or that God would be limited?

Direct, firsthand experience.

InChrist said:
You say such separation is an illusion and you have experienced and realized this by seeing the brilliance of Love shining through everything. How can you be sure your perceptions are accurate? Or you are not seeing an illusion?

Because in such experiences, there is no doubt whatsoever. The common report from all those who have such an experience is, to quote from the Bible, "I was blind, but now I see". That is exactly what an experience like this does. It makes it abundantly clear that anything short of that is just and experience of our thoughts and speculations, a matter of concepts and ideas and beliefs. When confronted with something of Absolute magnitude, all shadows are fully exposed in that Light and there is no question as to its Truth. Experience supersedes mere beliefs.

InChrist said:
The Bible claims to be God's revealed word and I believe it is for the purpose of giving accurate information about God we otherwise have no way of knowing because experience alone can be lacking or deceptive, especially when one ventures into the spiritual realm.

I would say that's wrong. To quote from the Bible, "Taste and see that the Lord is good!". That's not, 'rely on the revealed word," with your faith and beliefs and ideas, and don't trust some experience that challenges them for you. That is an injunction to have an actual experience. "Taste". In other words, don't rely on what you've been told you should believe, go and taste it yourself, have an experience, and then you will know. Tasting is experiential, and the injunction is saying "Trust experience". Not this other poor interpretation that the "heart is deceitful". That's a bad reading of that verse, and a contradiction to the injunction to experience God. "Born again," is not a philosophical position, it's experiential. When all else is brought into question, trust experience. Let experience challenge your beliefs, to the point you may actually need to change them because they are preventing you from truly growing. (That is the voice of experience speaking).

InChrist said:
My question for you is what about those who don't want unity with God, who want to remain immersed in sin and/or harmful damaging behavior toward self or others? You say we already judge or condemn ourselves and should learn to love ourselves. What about those who don't condemn the hurtful things they do or make any judgements at all when they beat their spouse or rape a child, steal from someone, or kick the dog each night? Suppose they see no need of forgiveness and do not want change because they love what they are doing?

I believe those who you describe are typically victims of abuse themselves, and not knowing how to love themselves lash out at the world through their pain. They need help. They need to learn what that Love is, so they can first love themselves, and then love others as themselves, fulfilling the two great commandments of Jesus. Right? People who are horrible people usually have some problem, an issue that messes with their minds and emotions. They are broken people.

I think everyone given the right opening, both want and will accept Love. Sometimes that's hard to break through all the walls they hide their broken selves behind in some misguided form of self-protection. This is where true, unconditional love comes in. It can break though. To give one simple example, bullies. Bullies are that way typically because they are in home situations where they feel unloved, victims of abuse, etc, and try they deal with those feelings ineffectively, picking on others to make themselves feel less small. It's not appropriate, but it stems from a problem. They don't deserve to be burned alive with gasoline. They deserve our help, in what way we can. This is compassion. This is the way of Jesus.

InChrist said:
It is somewhat confusing to me and contradictory that above you said there is nothing we can do to measure up (which I agree with) and now you've said ... removing the dross is our work. You also said... "you have to remove the barriers and the obstacles that cause you to experience yourself as separate from God, and God separate from you. I like to put it that God is there the whole time, just waiting for us to be done doing whatever it is we are doing to try to find God. Our job is to remove the obstacles, and just let God be in us."

I also believe God is there the whole time as the scriptures indicate and that anyone who receives Jesus Christ is then given the new life of Christ /God to dwell within them. Yet, you seem to be saying on the one hand that God is not separate from us while then saying it is our job to let God be in us. If God is already in human beings then why the need to let God be in us?

I'll try to explain. Think of it in terms of the verse which says "grieve not the holy spirit". The Spirit is always within you. It doesn't come and go, bouncing in and out depending whether you've been naughty or nice. Rather, we in the darkness of our thoughts and imaginations can block it from its influence in us. That is exactly what I mean. There's this quote I came across from the mystic/poet Rumi which says, "Your task is not to seek love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it." That captures it well.

When we hold on to resentments, jealousies, angers, pride, and so forth, these create barriers to fully experience that Love. So our work to remove the dross, is to seek to remove the power of these things the ego clings to which prevents us from accessing that Wellspring of Life that is in us. All we need to do is not to seek for God "out there" somewhere, but to simply pull back the heavy draperies in our lives that we put in front of God already there the whole time.

You asked above about those who don't want unity with God? Anyone of us, you and me both, in fact at times, despite our own best interests, prefer to hang on to these things which stand as barriers to that. I myself have realized a decades old resentment in myself that it turns out has be an obstacle for me to move beyond that into a greater freedom of Spirit within me. Do I want to swim within God's Ocean? Oh yes, very much so! Yet, despite that, it seems we, myself included, do things where for some fool reason we prefer not to let go. It's scary to let go. And so it is with these others you might think have no desire for God. Maybe they too have a hard to accepting that Love, because they haven't learned to let go. I always say, the spiritual path is not one of seeking God, but of seeking to allow God.

InChrist said:
I realize that I have really not addressed each of the points or subjects in your post, but I am starting to feel overwhelmed with the length and amount to respond to.

We always seem to run into this.

Not that I blame you. I tend to just do this. Feel free to just focus on what you think is important to do so. Pick and choose from what you think is salient. If there's something I'd like to discuss further, I'll bring it around. Don't feel obligated to address every point, in other words.

InChrist · Nov 4, 2017

Windwalker said:
I should add something at this point, that the experience of something quite similar for me to this was not something I sought after. It was purely spontaneous, and set the path of my entire life ever since, going on four decades now.

What do you mean purely spontaneous?

Windwalker said:
It was from here I entered into Christianity to try to find my way Home to it. The doorway into Christianity I found did not open to that, but instead took major steps backwards and in wrong directions altogether.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying, do you care to elaborate?

Windwalker said:
That the book above you reference is the story of some Hindu who converted to Christianity may apply to him and his needs, but very highly doubtful it would relate to me, BTW.

I think the story would be relevant to anyone who has had a spiritual experience, be it through Hindu, Buddhist, or Christian meditation or any other form of mysticism. That' just my thought.

Windwalker said:
Direct, firsthand experience.

Because in such experiences, there is no doubt whatsoever. The common report from all those who have such an experience is, to quote from the Bible, "I was blind, but now I see". That is exactly what an experience like this does. It makes it abundantly clear that anything short of that is just and experience of our thoughts and speculations, a matter of concepts and ideas and beliefs. When confronted with something of Absolute magnitude, all shadows are fully exposed in that Light and there is no question as to its Truth. Experience supersedes mere beliefs.

I would say that's wrong. To quote from the Bible, "Taste and see that the Lord is good!". That's not, 'rely on the revealed word," with your faith and beliefs and ideas, and don't trust some experience that challenges them for you. That is an injunction to have an actual experience. "Taste". In other words, don't rely on what you've been told you should believe, go and taste it yourself, have an experience, and then you will know. Tasting is experiential, and the injunction is saying "Trust experience". Not this other poor interpretation that the "heart is deceitful". That's a bad reading of that verse, and a contradiction to the injunction to experience God. "Born again," is not a philosophical position, it's experiential. When all else is brought into question, trust experience. Let experience challenge your beliefs, to the point you may actually need to change them because they are preventing you from truly growing. (That is the voice of experience speaking).

I definitely think experience is valuable and important. I have had several spiritual encounters and experiences. The experience of being born again was very dramatic and it was a 24-hour period where it felt as if I had been temporary removed from this planet and then returned to it with an entirely new worldview and perspective of life. The veil between the material world and the spiritual realm was quite thin for several days/weeks. The Bible, which prior had always seemed confusing and disjointed became coherent and I clearly saw the major unified theme of God throughout, from Genesis to Revelation.
I believe that there are very real experiences available or that occur in the spiritual realm, some truly of God, but many deceptions from satan or demonic being who appear radiantly beautiful. The human mind can easily be deceived by more powerful malevolent beings appearing as angels of light presenting illusions of bliss and light. Therefore the necessity of testing all experiences by the revealed word of God. You may dismiss this, but according to your philosophy..."in such experiences, there is no doubt whatsoever" and "experience supersedes mere beliefs". I did not think about or believe in personal demonic beings before I was born again. I was basically biblically illiterate. Yet, I experienced the reality of dark, demonic beings and I know they are ready to deceive humans by any means possible and are especially adept at knowing what will work best for each person.

Windwalker said:
I believe those who you describe are typically victims of abuse themselves, and not knowing how to love themselves lash out at the world through their pain. They need help. They need to learn what that Love is, so they can first love themselves, and then love others as themselves, fulfilling the two great commandments of Jesus. Right? People who are horrible people usually have some problem, an issue that messes with their minds and emotions. They are broken people.

I think everyone given the right opening, both want and will accept Love. Sometimes that's hard to break through all the walls they hide their broken selves behind in some misguided form of self-protection. This is where true, unconditional love comes in. It can break though. To give one simple example, bullies. Bullies are that way typically because they are in home situations where they feel unloved, victims of abuse, etc, and try they deal with those feelings ineffectively, picking on others to make themselves feel less small. It's not appropriate, but it stems from a problem. They don't deserve to be burned alive with gasoline. They deserve our help, in what way we can. This is compassion. This is the way of Jesus.

I fully agree that there are many broken, hurting people who lash out often harming themselves and others. They do need help and compassion. They do need to know they are loved by God and others. If they respond, then that is wonderful.
Yet, I see that sometimes there are those who need something else (as we all do at times)...justice. Some people are abusive and evil, practicing coercive control and domination over others. They know what they are doing and why they are doing it and have a mentality of entitlement to power, whereby, through intimidation, violence, manipulation and isolation, they keep their target subordinated and under their power and control. In situations as these justice is the way of Jesus, not compassion. Show compassion to someone like this and you will be manipulated. It is their victim who needs compassion. I have seen this situation first hand in the life of a friend who has suffered abuse, yet it is her abusive husband who comes across as the martyr and victim gaining everyone's sympathy and compassion.
I feel like your philosophy which focuses on solely on Love and an all-inclusive Absolute without the balance of justice opens wide the door for entitlement mentality with no accountability to God or others. Contrary to the scriptures, it exchanges the truth of a God who judges man's sin for a higher power that judges no one. So it's pretty much a free pass for any kind of behavior, saying all is acceptable in the name of Absolute Love.

Windwalker · Nov 4, 2017

InChrist said:
What do you mean purely spontaneous?

It was nothing sought after. It just happened without effort. Walking along, and "blam", sort of thing.

InChrist said:
I'm not quite sure what you are saying, do you care to elaborate?

Oh, that was my venture into the arms of fundamentalism, promising the truth and guidance I sought, for me to eat it all up until I realized, as the proverbs say, "I know more than all my teachers". Quite literally so. This was my encounter with the legalistic mentality, the fearful God who sends people to hell. The biblical literalists, and so forth. I know quite a lot about that mode of thought, and so when I speak about it, I am in fact an expert with it. I have a degree from one of their Bible colleges. I left them shortly after graduation, realizing the man behind the curtain, so to speak.

InChrist said:
I think the story would be relevant to anyone who has had a spiritual experience, be it through Hindu, Buddhist, or Christian meditation or any other form of mysticism. That' just my thought.

It could be. I haven't read it. I just saw it was some dude who converted to Christianity, and assumed the rest that it was like that guy who was all super-newage, only to convert to the fundamentalist flavor of the Christian religion, and call all of that prior stuff "satan". I wouldn't be surprised this was pretty much the same, but I'd enjoy being wrong.

P.S. What you described in your experience is in fact a mystical experience itself. So you should realize that that too was a "form of mysticism". Which is quite surprising you seem to express an aversion to those who desire that sort of union with Spirit. To me, once you've tasted that, nothing else measures up anymore. But I guess I do understand how some, subconsciously wish to avoid that return Home, as it were, because it means walking through the fields of our own inner demons and overcoming them, like Christ confronting the devil in the temptation story. Some escape into religion to avoid that, what some external entity to do it for them, to take away that cup they must alone drink in order to find God.

InChrist said:
I definitely think experience is valuable and important. I have had several spiritual encounters and experiences. The experience of being born again was very dramatic and it was a 24-hour period where it felt as if I had been temporary removed from this planet and then returned to it with an entirely new worldview and perspective of life. The veil between the material world and the spiritual realm was quite thin for several days/weeks.

That's great to hear. Touching the subtle, which is what you describe, is quite well known to me. I just understand it probably within different frameworks than you are at this point. But I understand the gist, even if I don't use the same language.

InChrist said:
The Bible, which prior had always seemed confusing and disjointed became coherent and I clearly saw the major unified theme of God throughout, from Genesis to Revelation.

When we have a dramatic perspective shift like this, we become able to put the otherwise disjointed things in our lives together in such as way as it provides a meaningful framework for us. This is a good thing. That's what's important. It doesn't necessarily mean that how we think about is in fact objectively factual. That's actually incidental to it. Understanding that allows me to see how you think about things as valid for you. I would hope you could say the same for others who see it differently, yet enjoy the same Taste as you have. It makes me sad for those who struggle being able enjoy that for another person, simply because it's not using the same language we grok with. It's sad, and limiting. This too, I believe, is a core teaching of Jesus. Don't get hung up on belief structures. "By their fruit you shall know them".

InChrist said:
I believe that there are very real experiences available or that occur in the spiritual realm, some truly of God, but many deceptions from satan or demonic being who appear radiantly beautiful.

Let me try to explain what I hear in this. There are some people, like that dude in that New Age convert to fundamentalism story you shared with me a few years back, which I actually read, as painful to my soul as that was. That person was not psychologically ready to venture forth into the deep hidden recesses of his psyche. he opened a door into himself he was completely ill-prepared to open.

That is in fact what all this "demon and devil" stuff is. It is a warfare within ourselves, against ourselves. I've tried to explain this before with you, but whereas you see premodern magic/mythic demons and spirits at war with us in the middle of their chessboards, I see into modern psychology. I know any attempt to explain this won't be received by you, unless something has changed. It is my understanding, with both my mind and my heart and soul, that what are narratives in the historical past tried to capture in its mythologies, are better understood in the light of modern psychology. All that happens is we remove the magical elements of it to get to something more practical and reliable than the of sprinkling blood and chanting magical incantations.

InChrist said:
The human mind can easily be deceived by more powerful malevolent beings appearing as angels of light presenting illusions of bliss and light.

The human mind is deceived by itself quite well, without the need for gods with flaming pitchforks.

We just call it that when we didn't understand psychology, 2000 years ago.

InChrist said:
I fully agree that there are many broken, hurting people who lash out often harming themselves and others. They do need help and compassion. They do need to know they are loved by God and others. If they respond, then that is wonderful.
Yet, I see that sometimes there are those who need something else (as we all do at times)...justice.

What humans call "justice" is typically nothing less than vengeance. That is beneath justice. When it comes to God, justice is forgiveness.

InChrist said:
Some people are abusive and evil, practicing coercive control and domination over others. They know what they are doing and why they are doing

Do you really believe so? If you had been hanging on that cross would you have said, "Father, Damn them! For they know what they are doing!"? I like Jesus' example instead.

InChrist · Nov 5, 2017

Windwalker said:
Oh, that was my venture into the arms of fundamentalism, promising the truth and guidance I sought, for me to eat it all up until I realized, as the proverbs say, "I know more than all my teachers". Quite literally so. This was my encounter with the legalistic mentality, the fearful God who sends people to hell. The biblical literalists, and so forth. I know quite a lot about that mode of thought, and so when I speak about it, I am in fact an expert with it. I have a degree from one of their Bible colleges. I left them shortly after graduation, realizing the man behind the curtain, so to speak.

That's too bad. I'm sorry you only experienced legalism and never met Jesus.

Windwalker said:
It is my understanding, with both my mind and my heart and soul, that what are narratives in the historical past tried to capture in its mythologies, are better understood in the light of modern psychology. All that happens is we remove the magical elements of it to get to something more practical and reliable than the of sprinkling blood and chanting magical incantations.

I understand what you are saying because psychology is so often esteemed as the modern method to find answers to life's issues/problems. While I do think there are valid applications of psychology when it clashes with the scriptures I will choose God's wisdom over human ideas. For example, psychology's solution to humanity’s problems is found within self and involves methods of delving into the depths of the unconscious, which is alleged to be the infinite reservoir (or you may call it the Absolute) that holds all mysteries of life. This is basically self-actualization, ultimately leading to self-deification, replacing any need for a Savior or salvation outside of self or one's own human effort. This is a concept diametrically opposed to biblical message and good news about Jesus as the Savior who alone brings freedom.

Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:34-36

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 1 Peter 1:2-4

Windwalker said:
What humans call "justice" is typically nothing less than vengeance. That is beneath justice. When it comes to God, justice is forgiveness.

Do you really believe so? If you had been hanging on that cross would you have said, "Father, Damn them! For they know what they are doing!"? I like Jesus' example instead.

It may too often be true, that what humans call justice is simply vengeance, but I'm not referring to human revenge when I speak of justice. Yes, God's justice includes forgiveness, but if also includes repentance. On that cross Jesus paid for the sins of the world and obviously those who put Him there did not know who He was or what they were doing or He wouldn't have said they didn't. His words reveal His desire and the heart of God that human beings would realize and acknowledge their sin and repent for forgiveness and God is always poised and ready to forgive those who repent and desire forgiveness.
The scriptures do not indicate that God forgives someone who continues to practice sin without repentance or any desire to change. To forgive a child molester, rapist, or any other person practicing sin who is not sorry and wants to continue with what they are doing is injustice.

Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Luke 24:45-47

When it comes to beliefs or philosophies I personally see the necessity of making sure they line up with the scriptures But also see the importance of thinking about their real life implications and whether they are true and bring freedom and justice in the lives of those being hurt and oppressed by someone's evil or sinful behavior or just further harm or bondage.

"We do no good to a rebel to pronounce him a non-enemy when in fact he is still an enemy among us wearing a suicide vest of explosives to kill us. The elephant of his sin is still in the room and no amount of pretending otherwise can change that fact. What I fear is happening so often in the church today is that with all of our talk of love and mercy and forgiveness, we are doing nothing more than choosing to ignore the elephant. That pachyderm is going to stay right there unless and until the enemy of God lays down his arms, bows his knee to Christ, and repents."
Why is Forgiveness Even Possible?

Windwalker · Nov 5, 2017

InChrist said:
That's too bad. I'm sorry you only experienced legalism and never met Jesus.

You know what I've been talking about the judgment of others from those who submerse themselves in religion? You just did that with me.

InChrist · Nov 5, 2017

Windwalker said:
You know what I've been talking about the judgment of others from those who submerse themselves in religion? You just did that with me.

I'm not sure what you mean. Religion is a human creation and I personally consider it to be dangerous, besides judgemental and often hypocritical. I do not advocate religion, which I am afraid is too often all that happens in many churches and Bible colleges. A living relationship with the Person Jesus Christ is totally different.

Windwalker · Nov 6, 2017

InChrist said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Religion is a human creation and I personally consider it to be dangerous, besides judgemental and often hypocritical. I do not advocate religion, which I am afraid is too often all that happens in many churches and Bible colleges. A living relationship with the Person Jesus Christ is totally different.

Your comment to me was this:

InChrist said:
That's too bad. I'm sorry you only experienced legalism and never met Jesus.

In this quote you in essence dismissed my experience as invalid. "You... never met Jesus." Yet, I explained that I have had profound experiences of that Timeless Love that forever changed my life to this day 40 years later this coming May. What the Christian religion understands as "The Christ" is easily answered in that experience(s) I've had, then and since then. Yet here you are saying. "You never met Jesus". On what basis, pray tell, do you make that sort of judgement? Because I don't share your ways of thinking about God?

If I said to you, because you don't think of these things in the way I do, that you've never had any valid experience of God, what would you think? Wouldn't you consider me somewhat of a presumptive jerk to dismiss your experiences because you don't believe as I do? That's the problem with a lot of religion, where they assume everyone but themselves is living in darkness. That's really sad and tragic for them. That attitude is everything Jesus sought to destroy in religious presumptiveness. Humility is a sign of spiritual truth.

InChrist said:
I understand what you are saying because psychology is so often esteemed as the modern method to find answers to life's issues/problems. While I do think there are valid applications of psychology when it clashes with the scriptures I will choose God's wisdom over human ideas. For example, psychology's solution to humanity’s problems is found within self and involves methods of delving into the depths of the unconscious, which is alleged to be the infinite reservoir (or you may call it the Absolute) that holds all mysteries of life. This is basically self-actualization, ultimately leading to self-deification, replacing any need for a Savior or salvation outside of self or one's own human effort. This is a concept diametrically opposed to biblical message and good news about Jesus as the Savior who alone brings freedom.

This is a very poor and inaccurate understanding of psychology, and what self-actualization is. I'm going to take some time here to try to educate you with some more accurate understandings.

First psychology is a tool to help understand how the human mind works in order to effectively work with ourselves to overcome individual issues, and to help realize our potentials as a result of that. It is not to "find answers" to life's problems. Those are vastly more complex than one's personal psychology! Philosophy comes closer to what you describe here, and it would be one which looks at huge variables, such a social theory, economic theory, and even spirituality. Humanity's problem are not resolved by going to a therapist, but it will help correct challenges and pitfalls of one's individual life, which then makes you more effective as a human to bring all the other positive gifts to bear as a participant in the world. Psychological work is only one piece of the puzzle. You have to be physically healthy as well, and spiritually healthy too. They all work together, and affect each other.

Psychology is not solely about delving into the depths of unconscious mind. That's one specific tool used in psychotherapy. There's also talk therapies, behavioral therapies, and so forth. I've not heard a therapist trained in Western psychology ever claim that going into your subconscious mind taps you into the "infinite reservoir (or you may call it the Absolute) that holds all mysteries of life," as you claim here. That is a metaphysical claim, not a scientific one. This is erroneous information you've been fed, it appears. I would challenge you to talk with a professional and ask them if that is what they are taught in their training.

What you do find in your unconscious mind often times is simply repressed emotions, experiences, and whatnot which like a balloon held underwater manifests itself in unexpected ways as it pops up here and there, often as symptoms, rather than the root cause. It is in fact this "popping up" which are these devils and demons people encounter. They are call "Shadow". You should read about these: Shadow (psychology) - Wikipedia Part of a healthy practice, particularly if you are trying to develop spiritually, is to do "shadow work", which is confronting and learning to integrate these aspects of ourselves we have repressed and put devil masks on. When they come up of their own accord, like that balloon held underwater, they appear frighteningly dark and threatening indeed! They feel like a "dark presence". But just like we used to believe you getting ill was caused by bad spirits, but now understand the nature of germs, these "demons and devils" of our mythologies are now recognized as these "shadows" in our psyches. Understanding this allows proper treatment to heal these things, rather than relying on magic to make these "mystery illnesses" we imagine are caused by spirits just go away. "In Jesus' name, I rebuke you!," is likely just to result in further denials and repressions, and symptoms as a result of it in one's life.

Now, you said that this is "self actualization". It is not. Self actualization is really simply realizing our potentials. This is absolutely something God would desire for all of us! "Let your light so shine...." says Jesus. Do you want to put that candle under a bushel instead? When we are constricted within ourselves, this is putting a bushel basket over our heads, curling up into ourselves, and becoming sick as a result of that. Self-actualization is the very definition of health! To realize the potentials of your body, of your mind, of your soul, and of your spirit, is in no small way, the worship of God. It is not the worship of your ego! Absolutely opposite. If you are worshipping your ego, then you are far, far, far away from being self-actualized. You're way down the scale on your personal development. Again, you have been fed bad information by uneducated people.

It is not diametrically opposed to the teaching of Jesus. It is in my opinion, the fulfillment of what he wants. Why do you think "forgiveness" is so important to Christian teaching? You cannot move on in your growth into God is you are holding on to things, things against yourself first, and things against others. You will never grow, never reach your potentials as a human if you don't let it all go, surrender all of it, and realize the brilliance of who you are in God's creation. Again, it is the highest form of worship, with one's body, mind, soul, and spirit. You have been misinformed, and I'm happy to be able to help give you better information here.

Windwalker · Nov 6, 2017

InChrist said:
It may too often be true, that what humans call justice is simply vengeance, but I'm not referring to human revenge when I speak of justice.

But when you speak of what you think is justice to God, you are referring to your ideas about what that must be. In other words, you are projecting your human ideas about justice on God. I've heard a great many Christians gleefully proclaiming how God will finally bring justice and slay all their enemies before their feet. That's vengeance. In fact, that idea is even put into the mouth of God in scriptures, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord!".

InChrist said:
Yes, God's justice includes forgiveness, but if also includes repentance.

I'll try to state it how I understand this from experience with it. Forgiveness is always there, like water in the faucet. All you have to do is choose to access it and turn the spigot. God doesn't withhold it from you until you repent. You simply aren't accessing it because you for some reason choose not to avail yourself of it. That choice to let it go and forgive, or accept that forgiveness that is always there, is in fact what defines repentance. You change your mind. You choose change. You're thirsty. You want a drink. Turn the faucet on. But that faucet isn't something you do to get God to do something in return. It's you simply opening the spigot and drinking the water that is already yours.

I do not believe anyone is unforgiven by God and has to earn it somehow. It's all just simply a choice to avail ourselves of what is fully already ours.

InChrist said:
On that cross Jesus paid for the sins of the world and obviously those who put Him there did not know who He was or what they were doing or He wouldn't have said they didn't.

And that is my point. No one who chooses to do these things which harm another truly know or understand these things from a place of higher, or Highest Awareness. Those that act poorly, who cause harm, truly do not understand what they are doing. If Jesus could say that about those who were killing him, why do we feel the need to claim "they know what they are doing and deserve hell"? It seems to me that's a human idea of "justice", not God's.

InChrist said:
His words reveal His desire and the heart of God that human beings would realize and acknowledge their sin and repent for forgiveness and God is always poised and ready to forgive those who repent and desire forgiveness.

I believe God forgives even before someone asks. Jesus forgave those who killed him, and they sure didn't repent first. Right?

InChrist said:
The scriptures do not indicate that God forgives someone who continues to practice sin without repentance or any desire to change. To forgive a child molester, rapist, or any other person practicing sin who is not sorry and wants to continue with what they are doing is injustice.

Understand this, forgiveness and restraining someone from harming another are two separate things. Unforgiveness harms the person who is not forgiving. Forgiveness is for you. God is forgiveness. When you don't forgive, you are in sin. You fall short of that mark that is God's Nature. You can forgive someone, yet still hold them accountable for their actions.

InChrist said:
When it comes to beliefs or philosophies I personally see the necessity of making sure they line up with the scriptures. But also see the importance of thinking about their real life implications and whether they are true and bring freedom and justice in the lives of those being hurt and oppressed by someone's evil or sinful behavior or just further harm or bondage.

I've always said that when you read scriptures, you are reading a philosophy into them already. As you expand the reaches of your understanding through knowledge and personal growth, then what you read in scriptures will now reflect that. In other words, if someone is immature, their reading of scripture will reflect that immaturity. If someone is more mature, their reading will reflect that maturity. So when you say a philosophy has to line up with scripture, what I hear is you saying "it better agree with how I current think and believe". That's a sure recipe for a lack of development. It's call confirmation bias. I prefer on the other hand to be constantly challenged, and constantly rethinking things, like what I've read in scripture in the past. This is the nature of growth. And that is what we are all called to do.

InChrist · Nov 7, 2017

Windwalker said:
In this quote you in essence dismissed my experience as invalid. "You... never met Jesus." Yet, I explained that I have had profound experiences of that Timeless Love that forever changed my life to this day 40 years later this coming May. What the Christian religion understands as "The Christ" is easily answered in that experience(s) I've had, then and since then. Yet here you are saying. "You never met Jesus". On what basis, pray tell, do you make that sort of judgement? Because I don't share your ways of thinking about God?

I did not dismiss your experience at all and believe it to be very real.

First, when I said..."That's too bad. I'm sorry you only experienced legalism and never met Jesus", I was lamenting with you the sorry legalistic experience you went through at Bible college. So I concluded that you did not meet the real and loving Person of Jesus there. Secondly, from what you have shared about your experience and the way you refer to Timeless Love, Absolute, or "the Christ" I get the sense that you are not referring to a personal Being/God. So again, this indicates that you have not met the Person of Jesus who came to the earth, lived, died, and was resurrected. I'm not saying your experience isn't real, just acknowledging that it is different.

Windwalker said:
This is a very poor and inaccurate understanding of psychology, and what self-actualization is. I'm going to take some time here to try to educate you with some more accurate understandings.

First psychology is a tool to help understand how the human mind works in order to effectively work with ourselves to overcome individual issues, and to help realize our potentials as a result of that. It is not to "find answers" to life's problems. Those are vastly more complex than one's personal psychology! Philosophy comes closer to what you describe here, and it would be one which looks at huge variables, such a social theory, economic theory, and even spirituality. Humanity's problem are not resolved by going to a therapist, but it will help correct challenges and pitfalls of one's individual life, which then makes you more effective as a human to bring all the other positive gifts to bear as a participant in the world. Psychological work is only one piece of the puzzle. You have to be physically healthy as well, and spiritually healthy too. They all work together, and affect each other.

Psychology is not solely about delving into the depths of unconscious mind. That's one specific tool used in psychotherapy. There's also talk therapies, behavioral therapies, and so forth. I've not heard a therapist trained in Western psychology ever claim that going into your subconscious mind taps you into the "infinite reservoir (or you may call it the Absolute) that holds all mysteries of life," as you claim here. That is a metaphysical claim, not a scientific one. This is erroneous information you've been fed, it appears. I would challenge you to talk with a professional and ask them if that is what they are taught in their training.

What you do find in your unconscious mind often times is simply repressed emotions, experiences, and whatnot which like a balloon held underwater manifests itself in unexpected ways as it pops up here and there, often as symptoms, rather than the root cause. It is in fact this "popping up" which are these devils and demons people encounter. They are call "Shadow". You should read about these: Shadow (psychology) - Wikipedia Part of a healthy practice, particularly if you are trying to develop spiritually, is to do "shadow work", which is confronting and learning to integrate these aspects of ourselves we have repressed and put devil masks on. When they come up of their own accord, like that balloon held underwater, they appear frighteningly dark and threatening indeed! They feel like a "dark presence". But just like we used to believe you getting ill was caused by bad spirits, but now understand the nature of germs, these "demons and devils" of our mythologies are now recognized as these "shadows" in our psyches. Understanding this allows proper treatment to heal these things, rather than relying on magic to make these "mystery illnesses" we imagine are caused by spirits just go away. "In Jesus' name, I rebuke you!," is likely just to result in further denials and repressions, and symptoms as a result of it in one's life.

Thanks for your thoughts and insights on the subject. I'm sure you know more about the field(s) of psychology than I do. From my understanding, there are more than 50 different fields of psychology, yet together they pale in influence when compared to psychotherapy or psychological counseling which most people seek when they are dealing with problems in life. I really don't see it as that different from what you've said, to overcome individual issues, because often it is problems or difficult issues which motivate people to look at their life and desire something better.
I agree that secular therapists trained in Western psychology would not use metaphysical language, but I think you will at least acknowledge that during the last several years there has been a tremendous integration between psychology and spirituality. Also, Jungian psychology, and I would say the Shadow psychology which you referenced me to, certainly shows this integration since Carl Jung was quite involved with spirituality, occult, and the paranormal.

Windwalker said:
Now, you said that this is "self actualization". It is not. Self actualization is really simply realizing our potentials. This is absolutely something God would desire for all of us! "Let your light so shine...." says Jesus. Do you want to put that candle under a bushel instead? When we are constricted within ourselves, this is putting a bushel basket over our heads, curling up into ourselves, and becoming sick as a result of that. Self-actualization is the very definition of health! To realize the potentials of your body, of your mind, of your soul, and of your spirit, is in no small way, the worship of God. It is not the worship of your ego! Absolutely opposite. If you are worshipping your ego, then you are far, far, far away from being self-actualized. You're way down the scale on your personal development. Again, you have been fed bad information by uneducated people.

It is not diametrically opposed to the teaching of Jesus. It is in my opinion, the fulfillment of what he wants. Why do you think "forgiveness" is so important to Christian teaching? You cannot move on in your growth into God is you are holding on to things, things against yourself first, and things against others. You will never grow, never reach your potentials as a human if you don't let it all go, surrender all of it, and realize the brilliance of who you are in God's creation. Again, it is the highest form of worship, with one's body, mind, soul, and spirit. You have been misinformed, and I'm happy to be able to help give you better information here.

I certainly agree that God desires all of us to reach our fullest potential and forgiveness is important, as the scriptures are replete with this information. Yet, they are just as abundant in providing the information that no human can attain freedom from sin, forgiveness, their full potential, actualization, or enlightenment by "self", but only in Jesus Christ.

InChrist · Nov 7, 2017

Are you trying to bury me with a multitude of words? It feels like it when you post another long post before I can even respond to the one prior.

Windwalker said:
But when you speak of what you think is justice to God, you are referring to your ideas about what that must be. In other words, you are projecting your human ideas about justice on God. I've heard a great many Christians gleefully proclaiming how God will finally bring justice and slay all their enemies before their feet. That's vengeance. In fact, that idea is even put into the mouth of God in scriptures, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord!".

I don't know what kind of Christians you know, but in all the years I've been a Christian I have not known one to have a "gleeful" attitude or proclaim how God will bring justice on their enemies before their feet. If any have spoken of God's final judgement or justice, it has been with a solemnity.

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. The reason those words are included in the scriptures is to let believers know that personal revenge is wrong because God never takes vengeance from impure motives, unlike people do.

Windwalker said:
I'll try to state it how I understand this from experience with it. Forgiveness is always there, like water in the faucet. All you have to do is choose to access it and turn the spigot. God doesn't withhold it from you until you repent. You simply aren't accessing it because you for some reason choose not to avail yourself of it. That choice to let it go and forgive, or accept that forgiveness that is always there, is in fact what defines repentance. You change your mind. You choose change. You're thirsty. You want a drink. Turn the faucet on. But that faucet isn't something you do to get God to do something in return. It's you simply opening the spigot and drinking the water that is already yours.

I do not believe anyone is unforgiven by God and has to earn it somehow. It's all just simply a choice to avail ourselves of what is fully already ours.

I believe forgiveness is always there and available, too. I don't believe anyone has to or even can earn it. According to the scriptures, it is a free gift. As with any gift, though, it must be accepted and as you have stated above, one must turn on the faucet, desire a drink, and a change of mind. I'm not disagreeing with what you've said above because you have said in your own words that one must repent and choose change and accept forgiveness.

Windwalker said:
And that is my point. No one who chooses to do these things which harm another truly know or understand these things from a place of higher, or Highest Awareness. Those that act poorly, who cause harm, truly do not understand what they are doing. If Jesus could say that about those who were killing him, why do we feel the need to claim "they know what they are doing and deserve hell"? It seems to me that's a human idea of "justice", not God's.

I believe God forgives even before someone asks. Jesus forgave those who killed him, and they sure didn't repent first. Right?

Of course Jesus right there in the flesh forgave them because He was paying for their sins at that moment, demonstrating His love for sinners, and providing a way of freedom from sin. I think it is true that many do harmful things in ignorance. Nevertheless God has given each of us a mind and a conscience of right and wrong (Romans 2:15). According to the scriptures, there is a point where one who willfully ignores their conscience and persists in sin with no desire to change have...

...their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness (Eph. 4:18-19)

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind...(Romans 1:28)

...their own conscience seared with a hot iron...(1 Timothy 4:2)

Windwalker said:
Understand this, forgiveness and restraining someone from harming another are two separate things. Unforgiveness harms the person who is not forgiving. Forgiveness is for you. God is forgiveness. When you don't forgive, you are in sin. You fall short of that mark that is God's Nature. You can forgive someone, yet still hold them accountable for their actions.

I really appreciate this and totally agree unforgiveness harms the unforgiving person and unforgiveness is sin. I am also in agreement that you can forgive someone while still holding them accountable. This all I have been saying. I am so grateful that God is love, His Love includes forgiveness which is freely offered to all, and His perfect love also is just and holds people accountable for their actions. God's Love is Pure. God is Pure.

And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:4-10

Jainarayan · Nov 7, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Edit: or did I sit there and watch as they put the mouse in my food and even had other kitchen staff asking me for guidance

More importantly, did I order mouse soup? :shrug:

Windwalker · Nov 9, 2017

InChrist said:
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. The reason those words are included in the scriptures is to let believers know that personal revenge is wrong because God never takes vengeance from impure motives, unlike people do.

While I agree that historically this "don't take personal revenge" is a step forward socially, telling the tribal people to let "God" handle that rather than perpetuating blood feuds generation after generation, ultimately this "Vengeance is mine" idea is placed in the mouth of God for them as a device for social reform through an image of ultimate authority. It shouldn't be mistaken as defining what God actually is or actually does, like some ultimate warlord who holds all power over the tribes in an attempt to unify them under his control. I can't take it as a mystical revelation of any sort to help understand the nature of Divinity at a metaphysical level. Vengeance is still motivated by a sense of retaliation for perceived wrongs. There is no "higher order" vengence.

InChrist said:
I think it is true that many do harmful things in ignorance. Nevertheless God has given each of us a mind and a conscience of right and wrong (Romans 2:15). According to the scriptures, there is a point where one who willfully ignores their conscience and persists in sin with no desire to change have...

Actually, no. This is not true. There are those who in fact, due to some malfunction in the wiring systems of their brains do not have this sense of conscience of right and wrong as most do. These are disorders of the mind, not moral choices. This is why this whole business of "they know what they are doing, and deserve hell," is in fact not true "justice" by any reasonable measure. Psychopaths don't choose to be psychopaths. They are born that way, or are created in early childhood through severe circumstances, such as being hung by their wrists and tortured by a parent. Something gets messed up in their brains that detaches them from a sense of fear or emotional remorse.

There is a really good article in The Atlantic I would highly recommend you read. When Your Child Is a Psychopath Let me quote a couple places for you to help see that these are problems that are far deeper than "They know what they are doing", or "They are possessed by demons", or some other such premodern explanations for some genuine pathologies, that are not by any means the result of their choices. There is no way a 3 year old is making a moral choice.

A trained eye can spot a callous and unemotional child by age 3 or 4. Whereas normally developing children at that age grow agitated when they see other children cry—and either try to comfort them or bolt the scene—these kids show a chilly detachment. In fact, psychologists may even be able to trace these traits back to infancy. Researchers at King’s College London tested more than 200 five-week-old babies, tracking whether they preferred looking at a person’s face or at a red ball. Those who favored the ball displayed more callous traits two and a half years later.

<snip>

The first abnormality appears in the limbic system, the set of brain structures involved in, among other things, processing emotions. In a psychopath’s brain, this area contains less gray matter. “It’s like a weaker muscle,” Kiehl says. A psychopath may understand, intellectually, that what he is doing is wrong, but he doesn’t feel it. “Psychopaths know the words but not the music” is how Kiehl describes it. “They just don’t have the same circuitry.”

In particular, experts point to the amygdala—a part of the limbic system—as a physiological culprit for coldhearted or violent behavior. Someone with an undersize or underactive amygdala may not be able to feel empathy or refrain from violence. For example, many psychopathic adults and callous children do not recognize fear or distress in other people’s faces. Essi Viding, a professor of developmental psychopathology at University College London recalls showing one psychopathic prisoner a series of faces with different expressions. When the prisoner came to a fearful face, he said, “I don’t know what you call this emotion, but it’s what people look like just before you stab them.”

Why does this neural quirk matter? Abigail Marsh, a researcher at Georgetown University who has studied the brains of callous and unemotional children, says that distress cues, such as fearful or sad expressions, signal submission and conciliation. “They’re designed to prevent attacks by raising the white flag. And so if you’re not sensitive to these cues, you’re much more likely to attack somebody whom other people would refrain from attacking.”

Psychopaths not only fail to recognize distress in others, they may not feel it themselves. The best physiological indicator of which young people will become violent criminals as adults is a low resting heart rate, says Adrian Raine of the University of Pennsylvania. Longitudinal studies that followed thousands of men in Sweden, the U.K., and Brazil all point to this biological anomaly. “We think that low heart rate reflects a lack of fear, and a lack of fear could predispose someone to committing fearless criminal-violence acts,” Raine says. Or perhaps there is an “optimal level of physiological arousal,” and psychopathic people seek out stimulation to increase their heart rate to normal. “For some kids, one way of getting this arousal jag in life is by shoplifting, or joining a gang, or robbing a store, or getting into a fight.” Indeed, when Daniel Waschbusch, a clinical psychologist at Penn State Hershey Medical Center, gave the most severely callous and unemotional children he worked with a stimulative medication, their behavior improved.

This is all deeply chilling to us who have normal functioning brains, but imagine if the wiring in your head simply did not connect you to things the like the emotion of fear, or empathy of any sort? Someone extolling the virtues of moral behavior would be as meaningless to you as some gibberish language you didn't understand. How can someone who can't feel anything like empathy, and cannot because they lack the actual ability due to a problem with their brains, be judged by the same "standards" we hold other "normal" people to?

You see, this whole moral absolute of "God's Standards", is actually a reflection of "normal human" behaviors, or standards. God, on the other hand 'judges' with compassion, even that poor psychopathic six year old girl spoken about in the article,

Samantha had just turned 6. Suddenly Jen heard screaming from the back seat, and when she looked in the mirror, she saw Samantha with her hands around the throat of her 2-year-old sister, who was trapped in her car seat. Jen separated them, and once they were home, she pulled Samantha aside.

“What were you doing?,” Jen asked.

“I was trying to choke her,” Samantha said.

“You realize that would have killed her? She would not have been able to breathe. She would have died.”

“I know.”

“What about the rest of us?”

“I want to kill all of you.”

This is a six year old girl. God's Love embraces her as much as you or me who have some semblance of these higher "standards". Should we welcome a psychopathic person into our homes? No. We need to be safe! But that does not mean we stand in the place of God with our judgements and say, "They know what they are doing".

InChrist said:
...their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness (Eph. 4:18-19)

I think we have better, more compassionate ways of understand why people do the things they do, rather than passing moral judgements on others as we do. I follow Jesus' lead on this one, and find what modernity shows us through greater more detailed research into these things makes us a more compassionate society.

InChrist said:

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind...(Romans 1:28)

Click to expand...

And bad spirits make us sick, not germs?

InChrist said:
I really appreciate this and totally agree unforgiveness harms the unforgiving person and unforgiveness is sin. I am also in agreement that you can forgive someone while still holding them accountable. This all I have been saying. I am so grateful that God is love, His Love includes forgiveness which is freely offered to all, and His perfect love also is just and holds people accountable for their actions. God's Love is Pure. God is Pure.

And he even loves the morally reprehensible, where we find we can't it in ourselves to forgive, or understand, or show any compassion. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." That applies to all of us.

JJ50 · Nov 10, 2017

InChrist said:
So it's a cold day and you go to a restaurant ready to get a bowl of hot, steamy soup. Your order comes, you grab your spoon and just as your are ready to take that first spoonful you see a dead mouse in the bowl!
How would you react?
Would you eat the soup anyway? Shouldn't you be accepting and allow for imperfections? Isn't is too picky or intolerant to have strict standards of cleanliness and purity? Anyone can make mistakes, after all the cook is just human, right?

There is a lot in the Bible which reveal that God as Creator has standards of purity which don't allow for corruption or anything less than clean, pure perfection. Is God being too demanding? So often, it seems like God is accused of having requirements which are too high or that He should be a little lax or accept what He would classify as disgusting, gross substandard quality... yet, people don't so easily drop their standards.

What do you think?

The god in the Bible is the lowest of the low, its standards aren't worth zilch!

InChrist · Nov 10, 2017

JJ50 said:
The god in the Bible is the lowest of the low, its standards aren't worth zilch!

How do you know?

Twilight Hue · Nov 10, 2017

Shadow Wolf said:
God should practice what he preaches, assume responsibility for his own short comings and the failures of his creation, and hold himself to his own standards. He tells us not to murder, yet he committed genocide more than once in the Bible.

The original Hitler.

InChrist · Nov 10, 2017

Windwalker said:
While I agree that historically this "don't take personal revenge" is a step forward socially, telling the tribal people to let "God" handle that rather than perpetuating blood feuds generation after generation, ultimately this "Vengeance is mine" idea is placed in the mouth of God for them as a device for social reform through an image of ultimate authority. It shouldn't be mistaken as defining what God actually is or actually does, like some ultimate warlord who holds all power over the tribes in an attempt to unify them under his control. I can't take it as a mystical revelation of any sort to help understand the nature of Divinity at a metaphysical level. Vengeance is still motivated by a sense of retaliation for perceived wrongs. There is no "higher order" vengence.

I think the word "vengeance" was used for the purpose of specifically addressing the human behavior of revenge or retaliation in a way people understand. It is not implying God is retaliatory because His revelation is already that of holiness, love, and justice, but His love and justice does include righteous judgement. So believers are to forgo revenge and trust God to bring perfect justice in His way and time.

Windwalker said:
Actually, no. This is not true. There are those who in fact, due to some malfunction in the wiring systems of their brains do not have this sense of conscience of right and wrong as most do. These are disorders of the mind, not moral choices. This is why this whole business of "they know what they are doing, and deserve hell," is in fact not true "justice" by any reasonable measure. Psychopaths don't choose to be psychopaths. They are born that way, or are created in early childhood through severe circumstances, such as being hung by their wrists and tortured by a parent. Something gets messed up in their brains that detaches them from a sense of fear or emotional remorse.

There is a really good article in The Atlantic I would highly recommend you read. When Your Child Is a Psychopath Let me quote a couple places for you to help see that these are problems that are far deeper than "They know what they are doing", or "They are possessed by demons", or some other such premodern explanations for some genuine pathologies, that are not by any means the result of their choices. There is no way a 3 year old is making a moral choice.

This is all deeply chilling to us who have normal functioning brains, but imagine if the wiring in your head simply did not connect you to things the like the emotion of fear, or empathy of any sort? Someone extolling the virtues of moral behavior would be as meaningless to you as some gibberish language you didn't understand. How can someone who can't feel anything like empathy, and cannot because they lack the actual ability due to a problem with their brains, be judged by the same "standards" we hold other "normal" people to?

You see, this whole moral absolute of "God's Standards", is actually a reflection of "normal human" behaviors, or standards. God, on the other hand 'judges' with compassion, even that poor psychopathic six year old girl spoken about in the article,

This is a six year old girl. God's Love embraces her as much as you or me who have some semblance of these higher "standards". Should we welcome a psychopathic person into our homes? No. We need to be safe! But that does not mean we stand in the place of God with our judgements and say, "They know what they are doing".

I think we have better, more compassionate ways of understand why people do the things they do, rather than passing moral judgements on others as we do. I follow Jesus' lead on this one, and find what modernity shows us through greater more detailed research into these things makes us a more compassionate society.

It was a very interesting, informative article. Thanks for the link. The account of the little girl was very sad and to use your word...chilling.
There is no way I am saying... "we stand in the place of God with our judgements and say, "They know what they are doing", because I believe only God knows that point in each person concerning whether they know what they are doing and will judge accordingly. Highlighting psychopaths and their dysfunctional brains in an attempt to prove God has no standards or does not exercise justice or judgement is not a valid argument, just a diversion. You could also include the mentally disabled, but I would say with Abraham who knew God personally and considered God a friend...
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just? (Genesis 18:25)
Abraham knew and trusted that God would always judge rightly, because as a Holy, Righteous, Loving Creator He could do no less than BE completely just. This is what I believe with regard to each person, psychopath included.

Windwalker said:
And bad spirits make us sick, not germs?

What is the point of this? Are you creating a position which I do not, nor the scriptures espouse solely to make your superior enlightened attack for the sake of belittlement or mockery?

Windwalker said:
And he even loves the morally reprehensible, where we find we can't it in ourselves to forgive, or understand, or show any compassion. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." That applies to all of us.

Yes, God loves all and is patient with compassion. We are called to forgive, understand, and show compassion, also. Yet, the scriptures throughout reveal that God is also the Judge of right and wrong, evil and good. You are free to deny that, but I see the necessity of accepting the Complete God. Jesus spoke a lot about love and forgiveness, but He didn't leave out judgement. There is a balance. Love without justice is not real love. I am thankful that evil, even the evil motives within myself, will come to an end and God will not enable it endure for eternity because God is a consuming fire...holy, pure, and perfect Love.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:10-12

InChrist · Nov 10, 2017

Nowhere Man said:
The original Hitler.

That is pretty ironic, since Hitler has demonstrated the antichrist spirit more than any other in history as he was attempting to annihilate God's chosen people.

God's Standard of Purity

Free4ever

Veteran Member

Free4ever

Veteran Member

Free4ever

Veteran Member

Free4ever

Veteran Member

Free4ever

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Free4ever

Free4ever

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Free4ever

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

Free4ever

Free4ever