-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The significance of 1844 in Bible Prophecy
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
We've gone over this so many times. The Baha'i definition of a manifestation makes these people "Great Beings". But, Baha'is have not so great beings in their list of manifestations... like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, probably Muhammad too. In the cases of Moses and Muhammad, it seems like their own followers saw them as mere men. As for the others, what religion did they even bring? They were all part of the Jewish religion.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I asked this in the other thread also, but, since Baha'u'llah is the main messenger, why isn't the dates he declared himself part of Daniel and Revelation? Oh, and since the Quran is part of this list of Holy Books from God, what are the prophecies in it that point to 1844 and the Bab and Baha'u'llah being the next messengers to come?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
How does me wishing him good luck have anything to do with me seeking good luck? But, let me interpret what I meant for you.
You and the other Baha'is are locked in to one belief and interpretation. They are spinning their wheels trying to convince you that there can possibly be another interpretation. Even if he is the most knowledgeable Christian in the world concerning the Book of Revelation, you don't care.
You believe that you are right, because you believe you have the only true interpretation... that given by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha. But how many chapters did they talk about and interpret for you? I know there's a couple in Some Answered Questions, is there others? If not, where are these interpretations and timelines coming from? Baha'i scholars?
Anyway, from what I've seen so far, you Baha'is have another interesting thread going. Good luck with it.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
You mean like the United Nations? Don't we need international law and order?
The association seems a little tenuous to me. Is it possible you are reading too much into Gen 3:15?
So if that were the case what do you think the seven heads and ten horns represent?
International government is a reality and much more of a positive thing than not.
The Baha'i perspective is that the beast was militant Islam as exemplified by the Umayyad Caliphate.
Revelation 12:3-4
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The Umayyads who dominated the Islamic religion. Seven heads and seven crowns mean seven countries and dominions over which the Umayyads had power: they were the Roman dominion around Damascus; and the Persian, Arabian and Egyptian dominions, together with the dominion of Africa—that is to say, Tunis, Morocco and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turks of Transoxania. The Umayyads had power over these countries. The ten horns mean the names of the Umayyad rulers—that is, without repetition, there were ten names of rulers, meaning ten names of commanders and chiefs—the first is Abú Súfyán and the last Marván—but several of them bear the same name. So there are two Muáviyá, three Yazíd, two Valíd, and two Marván; but if the names were counted without repetition 70 there would be ten. The Umayyads, of whom the first was Abú Súfyán, Amír of Mecca and chief of the dynasty of the Umayyads, and the last was Marván, destroyed the third part of the holy and saintly people of the lineage of Muḥammad who were like the stars of heaven.
The Umayyad Caliphate covered most of the known biblical world for centuries, not to mention occupation of Jerusalem for nearly 1.200 years.
The expansion of the caliphate under the Umayyads: Expansion under Muhammad, 622–632 (brown) Expansion during the Rashidun Caliphate, 632–661 (red) Expansion during the Umayyad Caliphate, 661–750 (yellow)
Ever wondered why a religion that is set to overtake the number of Christians this century isn't mentioned in the bible? Now you know it is?
"The Umayyad Caliphate covered most of the known biblical world for centuries, not to mention occupation of Jerusalem for nearly 1.200 years"?
"Umayyad Caliphate, 661–750"?
Amazing, how a beast that you say has authority for 1260 years is a dynasty that lasted less than 100 years? And, was overthrown by the Abbasid dynasty, so how were they still in control of Jerusalem for 1,200 years?"Umayyad Caliphate, 661–750"?
And, now I see where the number 666 is made into a date. It the timeline graph in the op. So the Baha'is do try and make the name or number of the beast a date. And which beast is it? The one fatally wounded one? The one you say set himself up in Andalusia after the Abbasids took power?
But I have a posting question for you. How do you get those boxes around the things you quote from the other people's posts? It looks way cooler than what I'm doing indenting and using quotation marks. Thanks
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
They don't give you the context do they. Does it really mean what they are implying?
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
How do you know they are God's messengers rather than merely delusional or dishonest?
Why do you jump to the supernatural rather than just accepting that we do not know yet?
leibowde84
Veteran Member
What passage are you getting AH1260 from? Please cite it for me.
That's my error. I meant the Islamic Caliphate, initiated by Umayyads. The Umayyads exemplified the character of the Caliphate though.
As explained above. Although overthrown by the Abbasids in the most brutal manner possible, the Umayyad dynasty did continue in the Iberian Pennisula for much many more centuries.
Some use 666 AD, others 666 to mean 661 AD plus 5 years considering the birth of Christ. I'm comfortable with either.
I've explained in my post to you yesterday about how the beast and dragon can have a general meaning (The Islamic caliphate) and a more specific one such as the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties.
I click (right side of mouse) and drag over the segment I want to quote. Took me a while to learn it too.
Baha'u'llah has said; "...Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely...." My search has found Baha'u'llah is 100% truthful in all He says, thus His claim likewise can be trusted.
Baha'u'llah says to judge fairly;
"...Were any one to entertain so great a Revelation in his heart, the thought of such a declaration would alone confound him! Were the hearts of all men to be crowded into his heart, he would still hesitate to venture upon so awful an enterprise. He could achieve it only by the permission of God, only if the channel of his heart were to be linked with the Source of divine grace, and his soul be assured of the unfailing sustenance of the Almighty. To what, We wonder, do they ascribe so great a daring? Do they accuse Him of folly as they accused the Prophets of old? Or do they maintain that His motive was none other than leadership and the acquisition of earthly riches?...."Baha'u'llah : The Kitab-i-Iqan
I can only say, I know, no doubts at all. The more I see this world follow the path, that Baha'u'llah said neglect of His Message would send us upon, the more clear it becomes.
Regards Tony
Regards Tony
There are a few references to this written in various ways;
DANIEL 7:25 "He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws -- and they shall be given into his hands until a time and times and the dividing of a time." (1+2+1/2 year = 3.5 year = 42 months = 1260 days = 1260 years)
DANIEL 12:7 "It shall be for a time, times, and half a time that he can scatter the power of the holy people." (1+2+1/2 year = 3.5 year = 42 months = 1260 days = 1260 years)
REVELATION 11:2 "The holy city they tread under foot forty and two months."(42 months = 1260 days = 1260 years)
REVELATION 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."(1260 days = 1260 years)
REVELATION 12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days." (1260 days = 1260 years)
REVELATION 12:14 "And the woman was given wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wildneress, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.(1+2+1/2 year = 3.5 year = 42 months = 1260 days = 1260 years)
REVELATION 13:5 "And there was given to the beast a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given to him to continue fourty and two months." (42 months = 1260 days = 1260 years)
Regards Tony
I this was answered for me from reading this book, I had no doubt as to the validity of the explanations it gave - Kitab-i-iqan - The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library
This song appeals to my heart;
Regards Tony
There is a book I read called Lord of Lords - https://globalperspective.org/catalog/biblical-christian/lord-lords
"..Lord of Lords shows that the probability of biblical prophecies coming true in the Bahá’í Faith by chance alone is about 1 in 1080. The number 1080 is equal to the number of atoms in the known universe! What does this evidence indicate? It indicates that if anyone could pick a specific atom in the universe by chance, he could then claim that the biblical prophecies fulfilled in the Bahá’í Faith also happened by chance!"
Regards Tony
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Year 1844 is not explicitly in the Bible, but there are allusions to it. There are Biblical verses, describing the period that must pass until End Time, and Return of Christ, but as this was a secret and mystery of God, it is described using a symbolic language, and as the Book says, it is sealed till the End, meaning non one will understand it, until its own time.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
This is just a claim though. And, obviously, just because certain claims from an individual are true doesn't mean that all of them are. It is very easy to put together a bunch of truths and throw in a guess, or belief as a truth just to get people to believe you. So, is there any evidence that Baha'u'llah was correct about everything he said? Can you give any examples of things that ONLY a person with direct contact with God would know that can be proven correct? Or are you just basing all of this entirely on faith?
This is all well and good. But, there is absolutely no way to confirm its accuracy, right?
If you "know", then you must have some verifiable evidence confirming all of this, right?
leibowde84
Veteran Member
A couple of questions:
1. Can you provide some supporting evidence that "time" and "times" means a year?
2. You seem to jump from 1260 days to 1260 years. Can you provide some supporting evidence that 1260 days = 1260 years?
leibowde84
Veteran Member
So, where are you getting 1844? Is it an educated guess, just a shot in the dark, are you trying to read something into the text that may or may not be actually there? Are you confident about 1844? If so, what evidence makes you so confident?
The Important thing to consider here is that it is Biblical Scholars that did all this Interpretation of Scripture and give all the explanations of 'Day for a Year', meanings of Time = a year etc!
It was Willaim Miller that brought up the date of 1844 first and this is in history now easy to research on the net.
It is well supported in the Bible.
It is now used by the Baha'i as it did predict the year accuratly.
Sorry short of time will post you some links to Christain Scholars on that subject.
Regards Tony
As explained it comes from Biblical Scholars of the 1800's.
This is one link that is not Baha'i but has 1844 with how it was considered
2300 Day Bible Prophecy in Daniel
Regards Tony
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Year 1844, comes from Biblical verses, in many ways. One of them is the 2300 Days Prophecy of Daniel 8.
Tony Bristow-Stagg, provided the verse for that one with a link. Here is also a much better detail explanation in the Baha'i Scriptures:
In the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, verse thirteen, it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary 42 and the host to be trodden under foot?” Then he answered (v. 14): “Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”; (v. 17) “But he said unto me … at the time of the end shall be the vision.” That is to say, how long will this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation last? meaning, when will be the dawn of the Manifestation? Then he answered, “Two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Briefly, the purport of this passage is that he appoints two thousand three hundred years, for in the text of the Bible each day is a year. Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the Báb’s manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. Consider how clearly he determines the year of manifestation; there could be no clearer prophecy for a manifestation than this.
In Matthew, chapter 24, verse 3, Christ clearly says that what Daniel meant by this prophecy was the date of the manifestation, and this is the verse: “As He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?” One of the explanations He gave them in reply was this (v. 15): “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).” In this answer He referred them to the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, saying that everyone who reads it will understand that it is this time that is spoken of. Consider how clearly the manifestation of the Báb is spoken of in the Old Testament and in the Gospel.
It is not an educated guess. It is calculation, which comes to year 1844.
Absolutely confident. Because in the year 1844, many events happened which are compatible with Biblical Prophecies, in a sense that, the verses of Bible and History become parallel. I can also show other verses from Bible, which point to the same year, with other Prophecies historically fulfilled which can be verified with Historical Evidences.
Here are some of those events:
“I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. But exclude the outer court do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months”. Revelation 11:1-2
So, according to this prophecy, the holy city, which is Jerusalem will be given to Gentiles according to the Will of God. The Gentiles are basically the non Jews, according to many Bible scholars.
Now there is also a match in the history for this.
From Wikipedia:
“The Islamization of Jerusalem began in the first year A.H. (623 CE), when Muslims were instructed to face the city while performing their daily prostrations and, according to Muslim religious tradition, Muhammad's night journey and ascension to heaven took place”
Jerusalem - Wikipedia
So, the first year in Islamic Calendar is a beginning of period that the Holy city was given to Arabs in a Religious Sense.
But for how long was it given to them? The Bible says 42 months.
Lets see if history and religion can match here.
42 months is 1260 days, and in Bible, each day of Lord is 1 year.
That would be 1260 years.
When you count 1260 lunar years, beginning year 623 CE, it comes to the year 1844. Now this is the year that the Bab declared a new Revelation, thus, the Holy City which was given to Islam, was taken from them, in a sense that, Islam was abrogated. In year 1844 also an edict was signed, which initiated the process of return of the Jews.
From Wikipedia , the return was initiated in year 1844, when the Ottoman Empire signed an edict of tolerance which:
“….infers religious tolerance through ending executions for apostasy for Jews that seemed to convert making their social situation easier while actually keeping their personal and group identity in their Judaic religion. Jerusalem has had the largest Jewish population in Palestine in recent centuries since about 1844…”
Edict of Toleration 1844 - Wikipedia
Now, return of Jews to Holy Land was also prophesied in Bible in this manner:
"This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: 'The LORD bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain…..The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.” Jerm. 31:23-31
What is noteworthy is that according to this Prophecy, return of Jews would happen at a time God makes a new covenant, and from Baha'i point of view, Revelation of the Bab was a new Covenant revealed in 1844, the year that edict was signed and Jews begin to return.
The Life of the Báb | What Bahá’ís Believe
Last edited: