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How are these Great Beings explained?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OTOH, I have doubts if you learned much about my faith either. You're still saying it was founded by one of your 'great beings' which is absolutely false.

I have learnt 100% that your Faith is not from a Great Being.

I have also learnt there in Much light in your Faith though.

I am happy that we both work towards a better world. That you have naught to fear of me and I have naught to fear of you.

You and I never have to change our Faith, even if 99.9% of the world do.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
... But since I personally don't believe these great beings existed in the same way you do, how can I believe anything like that? ...
Most historians agree that Jesus, Muhammad, Zoroaster and Buddha historically lived on the earth and taught. Only with much older Manifestations, historians may not agree their actual existence.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You and I never have to change our Faith, even if 99.9% of the world do.

I disagree. Hinduism is about 1/6 of the world. Buddhists, peaceful agnostics, the SBNR crowd, the liberal Christians, anyone not restricted by dogma doesn't need to at all, in my view. We're all going fine.

Still, I would be happy if a few of the more fundamentalist versions mellowed out some.

But go ahead, if you want 99.9% of the world to change, keep working on converting. Baha'i' is definitely a step up from some of it, in my view.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Most historians agree that Jesus, Muhammad, Zoroaster and Buddha historically lived on the earth and taught. Only with much older Manifestations, historians may not agree their actual existence.
Oh I believe people existed with those names. Did you read my entire sentence? What I said was that I don't believe they existed IN THE SAME WAY YOU DO. I believe some of them may have been wise men, but that's where it ends. Some had good PR agents too.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Good to see you quoting from the KJV.



I have addressed these issues in another post, recently sent. Post #13098 posted 3 days ago. Its such a fast moving thread, it can be hard to keep up.



The red dragon is the Abbasid Caliphate that followed the Umayyad. It lead to the golden age of Islam.

Abbasid Caliphate - Wikipedia





Its a clear reference to Jesus IMHO. Whether we take the author of Revelation as being the apostle John or part of the Johannine epistles, there is a close association with the gospel of John. This verse has echoes of the Logos

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:1=3

There were many Christians that were part of the Islamic Caliphates and they were called to adhere closely to Christ's teaching. After all, He taught:

And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.
Mark 12:17





It was a caliphate that last 500 years and spanned an enormous part of the biblical world. It was culturally and technologically the most advanced civilisation on the planet, and its influence on Europe was profound. It lead to the golden age of Islam which was probably the single most important factor contributing to Europe's move from the medieval period to the renaissance.

Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia

As an aside, while 1260 is based on the religious dispensation of Islam from Muhammad's pilgrimage, to the declaration of the Bab, there are similar durations of time where the Caliphate that up usurped the Imams existed from the rise of the Umayyad's in 661 to the dissolution of the Ottoman Caliphate during the early 20th century. There is also a similar period of time that these Islamic Caliphates controlled Jerusalem.

I'm ready to move on too.
The second Woe ended in 11:14 and the third Woe is coming quickly? Yet, all the beasts relate back to Islam? And, the red dragon is the Abbasids, but they brought in the "golden" age of Islam? What is said about the beast with the fatally wounded head doesn't fit with what you said.

"However, one of the Umayyads, 'Abd al-Rahman, known as "The Falcon of the Quraysh," managed to escape to Andalusia (Spain) where he set up another Umayyad dynasty that lasted for 300 years. Thus Andalusia was the wounded head that healed."
Can you tell me for each dragon and beast reference which dynasty you think it is? 11:7 a beast comes out of the abyss and kills the two witnesses. The Ummayads? Also, explain how verse 14 has the second Woe ending right in the middle of all these dragons and beasts?

12:3 the red dragon tries to devour the woman's child. 12:9 the dragon is said to be Satan. Are you sure the Abbasids are the dragon?

13:1 a beast with 10 horns, 7 heads and 10 crowns and looks like a leopard, feet like a beer, and a mouth like a lion. One of its heads has the wound. The whole earth followed this beast and it got its authority from the dragon? If the dragon is the Abbasids, and this beast is the Ummayads, how did the Ummayads get their authority from the Abbasids that came after them and had revolted and defeated the Ummayads?

13:11another beast that comes out of the earth with two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon? This beast makes everyone worship the first beast that had the fatal wound that was healed. You said the wounded one was part of the Ummayads that set himself up in Andalucia after the Abbasids took over? But anyway, this new beast makes everyone worship the image of the first beast? Who is this? Thanks.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
There's so many of Paul's teachings that don't work into the Baha'i Faith. In one letter he talks about the dead in Christ rising first and then those that are still alive rising to meet them in the air. The Protestants I hung out with believe that's what will happen, their "Rapture".
Ah ha!..... Paul. Many Christians lean on Paul before Jesus, and from many quotes on this thread it does seem to me as if some bahais can lean on Abdul Baha before Bahauallah. Why? Because they tell me that Abdul Baha made clear the writings of Bahauallah and that gives him the attention........... but I would always read Jesus, always read Bahauallah for the central message.

Things would have been so simple if Paul had just said, "Hey, I'm going to tell you in a symbolic way." But no, he writes it as if that's what's going to happen. So Christians think they will be airlifted out of here before the great tribulation destroys most of the people left behind.

I cannot remember the verses, but at one point Paul definitely explained that he was taking over the message of the faith. What was the name for that, I forget...? Something about Paul's dispensation?

Most Christianity is Pauline, sadly.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
:shrug:

The problem here is that we know there are problems in the NT, with their misunderstanding and mistranslation of Tanakh texts.

So not "unerring" or "authoritative."



Jesus is the "Son of God?" Only if used in the sense of - male religious "messengers" being sons of God. And you folks only believe certain religious messengers are such, - no Pagans.

As to the rest - there is no evidence for such.

Plus - why are you fudging/white-washing things here? Baha'i comes out of Islam, and as such don't believe in a trinity God, or that Jesus is actually God, or that Jesus is THE Son of God, etc. (You believe in multiple messengers - before yours.)

How - in your view, - does a human teacher's death enable our salvation?

That "concept" with "resurrection" shows you don't believe in their idea of a literal resurrection with dead people walking around town.

SO? :shrug:

*
I could not have said it better... "fudging/white-washing" I doubt if they believe in most of Genesis. Or, if the sea parted. Or, if Jesus walked on water. Or, I guess in much else in the Bible. But who does besides Jews and Christians? But those that don't believe it, at least admit it.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Look what up?

That a Vision for a great day of unity can be found in the Writings of the Great Beings. Examples;

"According to Buddhist tradition, Maitreya is abodhisattva who will appear on Earth in the future, achieve complete enlightenment, and teach the pure dharma. According to scriptures, Maitreya will be a successor to the present Buddha, Gautama Buddha (also known as Śākyamuni Buddha).The prophecy of the arrival of Maitreya refers to a time in the future when the dharma will have been forgotten by most on the terrestrial world."
Maitreya - Wikipedia

Avatars of Vishnu, await the 10th Avatar

"Whenever righteousness wanes and unrighteousness increases I send myself forth. For the protection of the good and for the destruction of evil, and for the establishment of righteousness, I come into being age after age. — Bhagavad Gita 4.7–8

Yes many we can find.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Nice to see you back and thank you for not firing sacred scripture at me with various coloured highlighting, sizes, block letters and underlining.:) It feels more like a conversation and discussion when you do that, but of course it up to you how you want to post.



Fair enough. That's a reasonable position to take.

The Baha'is would view the sacred scripture of Judaism and Christianity from the lens of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Of course there are problems with the texts. Some are nearly two thousand years old with the NT and obviously much older for the OT.

In regards the NT we have a range of views from the conservative to very liberal Christians. Baha'is would see the truth as lying somewhere in between, and would consider it a matter for study and investigation, rather than providing authoritative pronouncements from on High.

There are however differing Baha'i writings to be considered that provide a framework. For example in response to the Muslims saying the Christians don't have the true gospels in their possession and that it has been fundamentally corrupted, Baha'u'llah refutes this:

We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

Then we have this statement about great mistakes in understanding the texts that have affected translation.
Abdu'l-Baha:

As to thy question concerning the additions to the Old and New Testament: Know thou, verily, as people could not understand the words, nor could they apprehend the realities therein, therefore they have translated them according to their own understanding and interpreted the verses after their own ideas and thus the text fell into confusion. This is undoubtedly true. As to an intentional addition: This is something uncertain. But they have made great mistakes as to the understanding of the texts and the comprehending of the references and have therefore fallen into doubts, especially in regard to the symbolical verses.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas, Pages 609-610





The designation of 'Son of God' from a Baha'i POV does in part allude to Jesus's special and unique status that would be applicable to all the Manifestations of God. However there have been many great spiritual teachers, male and female, and the Baha'i Faith does not deny that.

In regards to other religions:

And just as the rays of the natural sun have an influence which penetrates into the darkest and shadiest corners of the world, giving warmth and life even to creatures that have never seen the sun itself, so also, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit through the Manifestation of God influences the lives of all, and inspires receptive minds even in places and among peoples where the name of the Prophet is quite unknown.
(Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, p. 4)



Because the Baha'i faith is not a black and white religion, nor are the issues you mention here.



Jesus provided an example of sacrifice and selflessness that can inspire anyone on the right path, not just Christians. All the great religious teachers and Manifestation have exemplified sacrifice and selflessness too.



That's correct that we don't see it literally. We can all be spiritually alive or dead. We can all walk in the light or darkness. Most of us here are children of the half light to some degree.
Who manipulated the story about Issac and Ishmael? The Jews and the Christians or the Muslims and Baha'is?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why? Because they tell me that Abdul Baha made clear the writings of Bahauallah and that gives him the attention........... but I would always read Jesus, always read Bahauallah for the central message.

If you read the Writings of Baha'u'llah and come to the conclusions given by Abdul'baha,then you are on the right path.

If you read Abdul'baha and do not agree, then we still have a lot more to consider.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Baha’i Faith claims to be the ‘fulfillment’ of previous religions.

All the major religions speak of a golden age when a new Messenger and a Teaching will appear and fulfilling a promise is not an insult but a wonderful thing.

It is seen as an insult because people reject the Baha’i Faith and Baha’u’llah as their fulfillment but it’s not all over yet. History may prove this to in fact be true.

So from all the followers of the major religions we are false to them, but if we are the fulfillment of their promises recorded in their Holy Books then time will vindicate it.

So yes I agree, to other religions followers they see us as a lie and a false religion but if we are correct and Baha’u’llah is the One Promised them then they will rejoice as they become aware of it and that’s what’s happening slowly.

I was a Christian now I’ve accepted both the first and second coming of Christ. That makes me faithful to Him if Baha’u’llah is true. Otherwise we are an insult but time will decide these things.
That is the question... Are the promises of all the religions being fulfilled? The promise of a peaceful world hasn't happened yet. And some people question whether the Baha'i Faith can fulfill that promise.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Avatars of Vishnu, await the 10th Avatar

"Whenever righteousness wanes and unrighteousness increases I send myself forth. For the protection of the good and for the destruction of evil, and for the establishment of righteousness, I come into being age after age. — Bhagavad Gita 4.7–8

Tony, Hinduism is vast. I'm not a Vaishnavite, have never read the Gita, and don't believe in avatars. But you go ahead. Preach at me all you want. I don't mind.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
That is the question... Are the promises of all the religions being fulfilled? The promise of a peaceful world hasn't happened yet. And some people question whether the Baha'i Faith can fulfill that promise.
Some people?? How about 'most people'?

Then there are those of us follow religions who made no such promises. That seems a tad more realistic to me. Why promise something you can't deliver?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Yes we can trust that the Bible contains the Word of God. To me it is clear, it is of no private interpretation. Any Authority of Interpretation has to be attributed to the Word and Instructions of Christ.

Thus the Catholic Church would have the strongest case.

I am happy if you do not listen to any one of us, we are not the source and we are just human.

We only offer that you choose for yourself to see what Baha'u'llah has said. We can only assist you to what has been recorded, if you ask, we can give our ideas on that intent by pointing to other writings and last resort is our own thoughts.

This is what we do with other Faiths Writings. Example;

Did Christ teach Trinity in the Bible? No there is no such teaching, so does it mean as per the meaning that people that formed the doctrine said it does, or does it mean as Muhammad suggested, or Baha'u'llah suggested?

Regards Tony
Yes, the Trinity was something that early Christians came up with to explain things that Jesus said and did. But, the writers of the gospels clearly said that Jesus rose from the dead. And it became a basic belief for Christians to believe that Jesus came back to life. But Abdu'l Baha says he didn't.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Tony, Hinduism is vast. I'm not a Vaishnavite, have never read the Gita, and don't believe in avatars. But you go ahead. Preach at me all you want. I don't mind.
I wonder who all these other avatars were and what they taught? I'll bet Hindus and Baha'is have a different list.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I could not have said it better... "fudging/white-washing" I doubt if they believe in most of Genesis. Or, if the sea parted. Or, if Jesus walked on water. Or, I guess in much else in the Bible. But who does besides Jews and Christians? But those that don't believe it, at least admit it.

The Bible contains the Word of God, that word though having some semblance in the material world, is a Spiritual Message, to give us Spiritual Understanding.

We are all mostly.spiritually illiterate, that is why God gives us the Great Beings and ask us to.learn from them. First their Person and their life and if that is not enough, the Word they give.

So as to Physical and Spiritual Meaning this one quote from Baha'u'llah is entirly for our Spirit to grasp to prevent material consequenses.

"The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody."

So following points all have many meanings;

The world is in Travil!?
Its agitation waxeth day by day?
Limbs if Mankind to Quake?
The Divine Standard?
Nightingale of Paradise?
Warble its Melody?

It is up to us to pull from that verse what it means.

This is also applicable with all other scriptures. With Prophecy the coming Mesenger fulfill the meanings.

RegardsTony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Some people?? How about 'most people'?

Then there are those of us follow religions who made no such promises. That seems a tad more realistic to me. Why promise something you can't deliver?
I know and didn't someone say something about religions being an opiate? Make big promises about good things to come... someday. But for right now, do good and obey the rules God has given you.
 
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