How are these Great Beings explained?

Dawnofhope · Nov 2, 2017

CG Didymus said:
But that's what everyone says about how others talk about their religion. Like someone said one little thing about Hinduism and an epic thread sprung forth.

Sure, its free speech. Anyone can say anything. That misunderstanding was corrected months ago.

I like what Jesus said. Take the log out of your own eye, before removing the speck from your brothers. We all have our faults. Best that we work on our own rather than exaggerating the faults of others.

Dawnofhope · Nov 2, 2017

CG Didymus said:
I'm going off to read a little bit of Daniel now and then play some guitar. How's the next chapters in Revelation coming along?

Been busy writing up reports and seeing patients today.

I'll be responding soon.

TransmutingSoul · Nov 2, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out...a little at a time.

I can assure you that is not a Little at a time...ha ha

It is a very comprehensive History of the Babi Faith and when I read it, I was riveted. Its over 669 pages.

Shoghi Effendi spent 8 months day and night translating this into English, it was His Priority, thus it holds a pivotal place in the Faith. It is very moving in many places and some of the Battles are monumental. It was a time of Transition from old laws to new laws.

It is some story and the great thing is much was recorded not long after the events, so the future will have much to read about and will be able to see more clearly the radical change our age is seeing.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Nov 2, 2017

CG Didymus said:
But that's what everyone says about how others talk about their religion. Like someone said one little thing about Hinduism and an epic thread sprung forth.

Bahá'í/Bábí split - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

oldbadger · Nov 3, 2017

Ingledsva said:
Sorry will go back and look for it and answer tomorrow, hopefully.

Magi was used for magician - so yes. And we do know that extraordinary healers with their herbs and potions were often associated with magic.

Check out this interesting Wiki page on Magi. Magi - Wikipedia

Look at the Chinese portion. The symbol for a Shaman matches the Cross potent.

Shaman Cross potent

Kind of adds a whole new meaning to Jesus and his CROSS. Plus it is a symbol of the sun. And we know YHVH was originally a Sun God. And Jesus the Sorcerer, - son of a Sun God, - has the sun and rays around his head.

Here he is surrounded by the Zodiac.

Yes Jesus could be a real person (with additions.)

Some Jewish writings call him a Sorcerer.

Act 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer (Magos), a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: (Son of Jesus)

Act 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

Act 13:8 But Elymas (Wizard) the sorcerer (Magos) (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

*

Damme!

The thing is, long ago I discounted Professor Dominic Crosson's model of a ragged peasant rambling from one village to another, with maybe a couple of 'disciples' ranging ahead to present their master's amazing talents to the people in a build up, and then the maaster, a shuffling holy man would arrive to speak and to demonstrate his abilities.

Magic for Meal.

And Crosson's intense and continuing focus upon Roman patronage-for-loyalty irritates, because there weren't many official Romans in Galilee; There may have been Roman observers, but Antipas would have chosen his own officials, publicans and supervisors. Roman patronage? Nah..... maybe copied, but not knitted into the orders of the peasants..... ?

As you know, Origen copied Celcius and the description of Jesus's disciples as 'ten boatmen and two tax officials' rings as true, I reckon that Levi and Judas were both publicans or had been at one time... and there they are, all 12 connected with that Lake. Maybe Jesus had followed his father's trade but left his home area to work around the lake as a healer, speaker, etc for a living?

...and they would have made a better living tan Crosson suggests imo. For instance the Baptist's disciples could have been immersing/redeeming scores of pilgrims each day, thus saving them from the Temple fees, duties, huigh prices and head tax and so a 'coin for a favour' would have provided these immersers with a reasonable income. So it could have been with Jesus's disciples, for they all went down to the Jordan to copy the immerser.

Jesus was definitely anti-Temple (mercy before sacrifice) and I often wonder whether he might have been immersing pilgrims in Genessaret? Thousands of pilgrims........ no wonder even tax officers were attracted away from their duties.

Sorry....... I wander off........

oldbadger · Nov 3, 2017

CG Didymus said:
I've never heard a Baha'i mention that.

Meh....... 'Listen to us! Our story is true!'

oldbadger · Nov 3, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

I don't think the Baha'i believe sin and death entered the world through one man, Adam. But I'll bet you they have a way to explain it. Let me give it a try... One man really is alluding to all men. And as sin enters into a man's heart, he becomes spiritually dead. And that's what Paul was really trying to say. Unfortunately, the Christians misunderstood him... As they did believing there is a real devil and that Jesus somehow came back to life. Poor deluded souls... Opps, I mean poor mistaken and misinterpreting souls.

Ah ha! Good point. I don't think that Bahais believe in Evil as a real 'condition', and I cannot remember whether they believe in the Devil, real Demons and such. Or real angels?

....'spiritually dead'....... all of this nonsense about spirits, spiritual, numerology, prophecy and so forth while denying exactly those words in other hearts and minds.

It's simple, I wouldn't want any of this, imagine a majority-Bahai World...... what exactly would happen to nasty ol' badgers who grumble away in their sets, eh? Have you seen that scene in the Bourne Legacy where the hero hears the sound of an aircraft and leaves the timber building? And then....... Whoooooshhhh, Booom! Blam!
No more ol'Badger. What a loss to the World!

siti · Nov 3, 2017

adrian009 said:
I like what Jesus said. Take the log out of your own eye, before removing the speck from your brothers. We all have our faults. Best that we work on our own rather than exaggerating the faults of others.

So you prefer that to Baha'u'llah's observation: "For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness."

TransmutingSoul · Nov 3, 2017

oldbadger said:
Meh....... 'Listen to us! Our story is true!'

"It behoveth you to observe truthfulness, whereby your temples shall be adorned, your names uplifted, your stations exalted amidst men, and a mighty recompense assured for you before God."
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts)

"Say: trustworthiness is the sun of the heaven of My commandments, truthfulness is its moon, and praiseworthy attributes are its stars. Yet the people, for the most part, understand not."
(Bahá’u’lláh, Trustworthiness, p. 332)

Now that is why we try to determine what is Truth.

siti · Nov 3, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Yet the people, for the most part, understand not.

So it would seem - and yet only Baha'is are permitted to say so whilst at the same time recommending the prior removal of "the rafter from thine own eye" to everyone else! There really does seem to be a collective cognitive disconnect here - you guys really seem incapable of discerning your own double standards...but how will you be assured of a "mighty recompense...before God" when you clearly have "diverse weights and measures" for assessing religious truth? (Proverbs 20:10)

Dawnofhope · Nov 3, 2017

siti said:
So you prefer that to Baha'u'llah's observation: "For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness."

You are taking a Christian fundamentalist approach of taking sacred scripture out of context. Baha'u'llah was speaking of the condition of 19th century Persia when He revealed this tablet to Ahmad.

Tablet of Ahmad

oldbadger · Nov 3, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Now that is why we try to determine what is Truth.

Bully for you!
But so do many other people.
That's what some of us are seeking here, on this thread.

Dawnofhope · Nov 3, 2017

siti said:
So it would seem - and yet only Baha'is are permitted to say so whilst at the same time recommending the prior removal of "the rafter from thine own eye" to everyone else! There really does seem to be a collective cognitive disconnect here - you guys really seem incapable of discerning your own double standards...but how will you be assured of a "mighty recompense...before God" when you clearly have "diverse weights and measures" for assessing religious truth? (Proverbs 20:10)

Because we are all one people, and God has created us that no man shall exalt himself above another.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 20

oldbadger · Nov 3, 2017

adrian009 said:
Because we are all one people, and God has created us that no man shall exalt himself above another.

Exalt: To raise in Rank.

Bahais will not raise themselves in rank above others?

Dawnofhope · Nov 3, 2017

oldbadger said:
Exalt: To raise in Rank.

Bahais will not raise themselves in rank above others?

That's contrary to the spiritual life. Jesus taught he who is greatest is least.

The Baha'i writings are strong on humility.

He must never seek to exalt himself above anyone, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vainglory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence, and refrain from idle talk.

Humility and Trust | What Bahá’ís Believe

oldbadger · Nov 3, 2017

Apart from laws to protect from sexual transmission of deseases with their horrific punishments, the Laws of Moses beat any other theocracy with ease.

In a World where 1% of the people possess nearly 90% of the wealth, and where 9 people possess 50% of the wealth, the laws of Moses would mash that situation down into reasonable distribution.

But Sadly the Priesthood were as susceptible to corruption as any other humans, it just tookk a little longer, maybe?

No other religion has, tmk, ever written such excellent poor laws as those found within the Laws of Moses. If they were introduced and applied to today's commerce, industry, travel, retail and other trades then the results could be amazing.

Asian and N.American religions may well have supported very good poor laws but of the Abrahamic religions the Mosiac Theocracy must surely still be the winner?

Dawnofhope · Nov 3, 2017

siti said:
I was, for the first four decades of my life a happy theist - first as an Anglican and later for about a decade as a JW. I should note that although I was (mostly) happy with my religion(s), as a science laboratory technician there were uncomfortable areas (such as evolution, miracles etc.) but my faith was reasonably strong and I comforted myself with the idea that all would be revealed in God's time. Despite taking up the beliefs of JWs I was never really fanatical and although I was trusted with responsibilities in the Congregation, I did occasionally flirt with the boundaries of official beliefs by making veiled hints - from the platform mind you - of doubt like "even if Armageddon is not coming soon"...but then hiding it from all but the most discerning in the Congregation by adding something along the lines of "we should still be determined to serve Jehovah". Anyway, to cut a long story short, my JW years were cut short when life intervened and I formed an intimate relationship with a non-Witness who was already married to someone else but long since separated. We eventually married and made our (difficult for me because of the policy of 'shunning' disfellowshipped members) way back to the Congregation but the doubts were now far too overpowering and faith had melted away entirely. In its place, I substituted reasoned investigation - first of the Bible and then widening the search parameters by looking at other religious and philosophical ideas.

Thanks for sharing some of the story of your life. It good to have a better sense of who I am talking to.

I understand that the JWs in USA have one of the lowest rates of university education amongst all faith adherents?

On the other hand they seem to have a very good knowledge of the bible, in large part to justify their own unusual theology, but of course the Baha'is could be accused of that too.

What do you need to do to get disfellowshipped and what's the rational for shunning?

Is it OK to marry someone of a different denomination or different religion for JWs?

I can see becoming involved with a married woman, albeit long time separated, could be a major moral dilemma for you. Was it?

siti said:
Anyway, to get to the point I wanted to highlight, during this time I had a dream. I dreamed that I was reading the Bible and there were two books in it that I was convinced - in my dream - contained the keys to understanding everything else. Both of these Books had names that were very short and began with the letter Z. There are no such Books in the Bible as we know it - the Books with names beginning with Z have long names - Zechariah and Zephaniah - but these were not the ones - in my dream I was certain of that. As I examined these books (still in my dream) it became strikingly clear to me that I was being told to compile these books and that they would be used widely to unlock the secrets of the Bible's real message. I awoke with a profound sense of mission and went off immediately to find out what these books were all about.

I almost immediately (somehow - probably from a background of having read the Bible an awful lot) knew that one of these books was to be called "Zadok" - or more accurately "the Book of the Sons of Zadok" - Zadok having been the progenitor of a dynasty of faithful priests in ancient Israel and the book was to be (essentially) a compilation of the "acts" of the dynasty that came after him. There is, of course, already plenty of information about them on the internet - but I had no idea about that when I had my dream. However, I did set about the task and discovered quite a lot of fascinating details in a light I had not been aware of previously. But essentially, their ministrations boiled down to two things - our responsibility for our own well-being and our responsibility towards the greater reality (call it God or Nature or the environment or whatever you want - I reckoned these were symbolized in scripture by the temple - our body - and the courtyard - our environment). Seen in that light most of the Bible makes sense as long as you view it through the eyes of the ancient people by and for whom it was written.

I could not recall the actual name of the second book as seen in my dream except that it began with Z and I thought it was very short - maybe just 3 letters. I guessed it might be a name and could only think of the name "Zak" to fit the bill. But by then I was deliberately and consciously filling in the details - in the end I decided that this really had to be an update of the simple message of the Bible but for a 21st century audience - a science fiction story that would stand as a parable explaining what we know about human reality (which is really what the Bible was when it was written as far as I can make out). It would of course be far more complex than the "Zadok" one but the essential plot would involve a young chap named Zak (short for Izak) who was the only son of the most senior scientist in an advanced civilization that had recognized that conquering the tyranny of distance to colonize distant star systems was out of the question and that only a cosmological reboot - a deliberate detonation of a Big Bang - could be reasonably guaranteed to give life another chance to evolve. In the process - Zak's teenage life would necessarily be sacrificed along with everyone else's (the storyline should be familiar).

siti said:
Not at all - go for it...

What a fascinating dream and one I could interpret too. You have even given me permission. How certain are you it wasn't a Divinely inspired dream in some way?

Acts 2:17 comes to mind.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

siti said:
The point is, at that point, whilst I was entrusted with the oversight of a multi-million dollar teaching and research support function and occasionally as an international chemical safety consultant and advisor to several government departments, I was convinced that I also had a religious mission quite different (in content and intent) from any other widely-held religious views.

siti said:
To psychoanalyse myself - was I mentally ill - no. Was I insane or incapable of functioning and decision-making at a high level. Certainly not. Had I really received a a message from a divine source. No - I just had a vivid dream. Was I deluded - certainly by this dictionary definition I was.

We could define a delusion as a fixed false belief as psychiatrists do. However for it to be clinically significant it needs to affect your capacity to function in your day to day activities which clearly didn't apply to you.

siti said:
To psychoanalyse myself - was I mentally ill - no. Was I insane or incapable of functioning and decision-making at a high level. Certainly not. Had I really received a a message from a divine source. No - I just had a vivid dream. Was I deluded - certainly by this dictionary definition I was.

delusion
dɪˈluːʒ(ə)n/
noun
noun: delusion; plural noun: delusions
an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument

I think that is a reasonable hypothesis and the most likely explanation, though if you have never had a dream or episode like this before I wouldn't exclude a spiritual dimension to your dream.

siti said:
I think both @adrian009 and @InvestigateTruth are wrong about their definition of delusion. Delusions do not have to be associated with mental illness but they sometimes are. People who claim to have received direct messages from a specific deity are IMO almost certainly deluded (as I was for a while). Most people who have had a delusional episode (be it messages from beyond or the unfounded belief that their mate is being unfaithful) get over it and do not outwardly display a persistent psychotic delusional disorder. But in some cases the symptoms persist - often accompanied by delusions of persecution that become self-fulfilling prophecies as they balk religiously against the very "authorities" they perceive as having done great mischief to them and the cause of truth. And yes @adrian009 , I would include Jesus - and Muhammad - as possible case studies for psychotically-induced grandiose religious delusions accompanied by persecution delusions - I know its not politic for a professional psychoanalyst to say it - but they do both display clear symptoms (as even the crowds noted in Jesus' case - John 7:19-20; John 10:19-20) as far as we can tell from the accounts we have - and neither of them were following widely held religious beliefs when they 'got' their revelations - just as @InvestigateTruth noted about the Bab - the standout feature of his (and Jesus' and Muhammad's) message was that he was not recommending the established widely held religious beliefs.

Your experience is clearly not in the same category as someone having delusions in the context of a major mental illness such as schizophrenia or bipolar affective disorder.

I agree that your experience as you have described it fits the definition of delusion. It has clearly been a valuable experience in that you have come to understand different ways of understanding your inner reality. @Vinayaka had a mystical experience when he was in his late teens that led him to become a Hindu.

I have emphasised that we should avoid calling other's delusional in our day to day life simply because they hold differing opinions or worldviews to us. Try to call religious teachers like Jesus and Muhammad delusional, is simply crossing lines of disrespect for others beliefs and rules of common courtesy and decency. I therefore wonder if it is a defence mechanism for you, and if you were really comfortable with who you are and what you believe, would it be necessary to be so extreme?

siti said:
That isn't going to happen in my case because in my case - even if I do write the books (which I might yet - if I ever find the time) - I will not be under the illusion that they were inspired by anything more than a human dream followed by years of reasoned investigation.

Its good you value reason and independent investigation, and you apply that to better understanding yourself.

oldbadger · Nov 3, 2017

adrian009 said:
That's contrary to the spiritual life. Jesus taught he who is greatest is least.

The Baha'i writings are strong on humility.

He must never seek to exalt himself above anyone, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vainglory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence, and refrain from idle talk.

What is 'Spiritual Life'?
What is 'Idle Talk'?

Dawnofhope · Nov 3, 2017

oldbadger said:
Apart from laws to protect from sexual transmission of deseases with their horrific punishments, the Laws of Moses beat any other theocracy with ease.

In a World where 1% of the people possess nearly 90% of the wealth, and where 9 people possess 50% of the wealth, the laws of Moses would mash that situation down into reasonable distribution.

But Sadly the Priesthood were as susceptible to corruption as any other humans, it just tookk a little longer, maybe?

No other religion has, tmk, ever written such excellent poor laws as those found within the Laws of Moses. If they were introduced and applied to today's commerce, industry, travel, retail and other trades then the results could be amazing.

Asian and N.American religions may well have supported very good poor laws but of the Abrahamic religions the Mosiac Theocracy must surely still be the winner?

I would have to follow many rules and regulations if I were to practice medicine on the Sabbath.

Have you ever considered becoming a Noahide?

Dawnofhope · Nov 3, 2017

oldbadger said:
What is 'Spiritual Life'?

It is when we are devoted to our spiritual practice in a sense of applying it to all areas of our life.

oldbadger said:
What is 'Idle Talk'?

Speech without concerns of consequences to ourselves and others. Backbiting and gossip are good examples. Disregarding truth is another.

How are these Great Beings explained?

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