How are these Great Beings explained?

oldbadger said:

Well, all I can say is that when we saw the Respiratory Consultant last Wednesday, he told us, in slightly surprised attitude, that the tests were clear, that I did not have a cancer, and that although asbestos Plaques were found in my lungs from contact long ago, nothing was found!

I was sure that I was in trouble.

But the Healing (the prebious Monday- last week) was extraordinary. Her touch on shoulders, back and chest was like great heat rather than warmth, right through me. She was young, late twenties, dressed in leather and high heels such as you might see leaving a nightclub on a friday night. After healing she smoked a f*g outside and put her shades back on. She was the very last person that I would have thought to be a healer.

I don't know, could never know, how I could be so lucky, because it all looked very very bleak. I have no doubt that one day I get asbestosis, have waited for it for decades now, but thre results were clear.

And good luck to you with any worries that you may have, may all be well..
Question: Can I ask how old you are, please?

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I'm almost 69, but I've been a vegetarian since '70. So I've been relatively healthy... or at least thinking I was healthy. But now my prostate is enlarged. And I have to wonder how does that happen? And why is it wrapped around a tube that people have to pee out of?

CG Didymus said:

I'm almost 69, but I've been a vegetarian since '70. So I've been relatively healthy... or at least thinking I was healthy. But now my prostate is enlarged. And I have to wonder how does that happen? And why is it wrapped around a tube that people have to pee out of?

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Ha ha! I am 69.... I prefer to think of it as my 70th year.
Prostate...... I pee much more slowly than when I was a young carefree 60 year old, so don't worry unduly, but do go and have yourself tested.
My friend was tested and found to have prostate cancer but he got tested and diagnosed early enough for successful treatment.
All the males in all lines of my family have died between 69 and 73 and so when I was found to have fluid in lungs blah blah I thought, 'fair enough then'.... my only worries have been about how my wife would manage, how to do my jobs such as going up in the roof, or clearing the pond. I knew she could not go into the roof with a ladder and so decided that I would have to build a staircase for her. I got the results last Wednesday, but in any case I bought the timber on thursday, cut the stringers and threads on Friday and assembled a beautiful pine staircase leading up into our roof yesterday, all done. I have a whole list of things to do now, because I would be very upset if I would be croaking and not finished the lot.

adrian009 said:

Are these lofty words relevant and do these politicians meet the standards?

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You said we would have people in government who were "more connected to the hopes and aspirations" of the people they govern. You can say all you like about Donald Trump and Teresa May, but they were both elected democratically by presenting a better reflection of the aspirations of the voters in their respective countries - DT because the American public (apparently) favours a nation that is essentially a free-for-all capitalist venture with tightly controlled borders; and TM because the British public apparently thought it was perfectly sensible to throw away 40 years of commitment to the cause of European unity in favour of a dream that most of them have only ever heard of in tales told to them by grandparents of grandparents - a country called "Great" Britain. Of course it doesn't exist any more and has not existed for a hundred years. I suppose they are hoping for a phoenix-like resurrection - but it ain't gonna happen and the second woman PM in British history will ultimately end up as a very short footnote in a continuing tale of fractious and debilitating political shenanigans that nobody ever really understands.

I can't see how that is going to change in a hurry - apart from merely stating (in flowery platitudes) that it must change - how? How will the Baha'i system make it change?

adrian009 said:

Electioneering is banned in Baha'i elections.

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I don't know what that means. How can you have an election without electioneering? How would you know what this or that candidate stood for? Surely its not the fact that politicians state their case that is objectionable but that they fail to live up to their statements - but a fair proportion of our disappointment is often attributable to our own unreasonable expectations. Brexit is a perfect example of that - having voted to leave the European Union, the people will never vote for a candidate that tells them the truth about the hard economic times that will follow as a result and every government and prime minister for the next twenty years will carry the impossible weight of completely unrealistic public expectations. Nobody who tells the truth will be elected and nobody who is elected will be able to live up to expectations.

And unless you can change human nature, that is not going to change either. How will a Baha'i system really make that happen - make people truly satisfied with what can only ever be a compromise.

adrian009 said:

... I hope you agree that like the 7 headed, 10 horned beast being referenced several times it is the same beast, as 1260 refers to the same time period, despite different uses in different contexts.


Revelation 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
There will be 1260 years of Islam, or the Influence of Muhammad and Ali from Muhammad's pilgrimage in 622 AD when the Islamic calendar begun, until when prophesising was no longer relevant as it had been superseded by the new Manifestation of God the Bab.



Revelation 11:9
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

I see the problem you are having. Islam is in the reigns of leadership immediately after the prophets death in 632 through Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and finally Ali (who doesn't have sufficient time to positively change the course of Islam) before the Umayyads. Rather than having a new starting point such as 632 or 661, these verse is saying that the period of prophecy as in 11:3 above is largely a period where the true law of God is subverted.



Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The woman symbolises the law of God that is in the wilderness (obscured) rather than out in the open as it should be. So we are taking the same approach as Rev 11:9 where we are looking at the general character of the period of prophecy of the two witnesses.



Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This too is looking at the general character of the 1260 period. Its character can also be symbolised by the dragon as exemplified by the Umayyad dynasty.

Revelation 13:3-4
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The Umayyads were overthrown by the Abbasids in 749 AD. The destruction of the Umayyads seemed total. However, one of the Umayyads, 'Abd al-Rahman, known as "The Falcon of the Quraysh," managed to escape to Andalusia (Spain) where he set up another Umayyad dynasty that lasted for 300 years. Thus Andalusia was the wounded head that healed.

Abbasid Caliphate - Wikipedia

Abd al-Rahman I - Wikipedia



Revelation 13:11
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

The second beast was the 'Abbasid dynasty. The Abbasid dynasty came to power by conquest on the ruins (earth) of the Umayyad Empire. Its rulers gradually became Turkish beginning about 840 AD. The second
beast had two names (horns) of "The Caliph" and "The Sultan."



Don't use 666 for the calculation but 632. I see the problem you are having and I think you are taking it somewhat literally. Look at these verses long enough and you either get bored witness, go crazy, or become a lot more knowledgeable about religion and history. I hope its the latter.


The fourth caliphate was the Ottomans. That's highly relevant. Remember the woman symbolised by the moon and sun and the flags?



Cool. Keep asking questions as long as you like. I just thought it might help you to consider some other approaches to augment your studies.

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A red dragon with 7 heads, 10 horns and 7 crowns is not the same as a beast with 7 heads, 10 horns and 10 crowns and was like a leopard with feet like a bear and a mouth like a lion... and was given power by the dragon.

Other problems. The dragon is the Ummayads? But they didn't last 1260 years in power. The beast is also the Ummayads and the slain then healed head is Andalusia? But in 13:3 it says the whole world was amazed and followed after the beast? No.

The second beast is the Abbasid dynasty? 13:12 says this beast makes all the Earth to worship the first beast whose fatal wound was healed? No. And this beast has his mark or number put on people... the number 666. Someone here said that 666 refers to the year 666 AD. Apparently, that wasn't you?

But again, why are all the dragons and beasts made Islamic leaders? Why not an evil Pope or the English empire? But none of the dynasties lasted for 1260 years? Even if they did, they all started after the date that Islam began. So to add 1260 to them would add up to beyond 1844. But for Baha'is to think the "Woes" refer to "manifestations" is odd. Didn't someone say that comes from Ezekiel? And I noticed there's some more "Woes" coming, 18:10, 16 and 19. But I guess these are ordinary "Woes".

But I can't wait to hear what you say for 14:1 and beyond, because the Lamb is back and a bunch of angels with plagues.

CG Didymus said:

From the link to the "time of the gentiles". "Jesus mentions a time in which Jerusalem is under the dominion of Gentile authority. Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Jerusalem in 588 BC began that period..."

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I threw that in to give you a flavour of how the Christians would think about it. Basically it means anyone who isn't Jewish.

Prophecy concerns the future, history concerns the past. Jesus when He delivered the Olivet discourse from which I quoted from(Luke 21:21-24) was prophesising about the time the Holy Land was trampled underfoot meaning sometime in the future the Gentiles occupying the Holy land and things being not so good for the Jews. Same deal for the book of Revelation.

In that context it makes no sense to be talking about previous periods of occupation of Judea/Israel such as under the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks or even Romans. So looking forward occupation by the Muslims is the most significant period of occupation heads and shoulders above anyone else.

CG Didymus said:

Then you say, "When did the Muslims take over Jerusalem? Siege of Jerusalem (636–637)"

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And that's when it all started.

CG Didymus said:

Add 1260 years to either of those and what do we get?

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1260 years refers to one period of time or religious dispensation. The Islamic calendar starts 622 AD and the Baha'i calendar starts 1844. That is the period we are dealing with. Reference to other events is giving us more information about the general nature of that period.

CG Didymus said:

"Jesus is NOT the Lord of Muhammad." That's what I said. Rev 11:8 in the NIV says... "Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified."

So which translation is correct? The older KJV or the NIV?

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I have both versions.

KJV is a work of outstanding scholarship, whereas NIV isn't. I use a NIV study bible because it provides a lot of useful cross referencing and background information. I use KJV when quoting. Shoghi Effendi did too. Some of the NIV translations are quite poor in my experience. Some people use NIV because they don't like the old English but then you are more likely to get translations that lead you down the garden path. Its best to know the original Greek and some Hebrew but I'm not a scholar. I'm a part time dabbler like many here.

CG Didymus said:

Add 1260 years to either of those and what do we get?

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With tge 1260 it is the full length of time that all these events will happen between.

That is between AD622 to AD1844 which is 1260 Luna years, the Events mentioned about the Muslim Revelation will unfold.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

But I can't wait to hear what you say for 14:1 and beyond, because the Lamb is back and a bunch of angels with plagues.

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CG Didymus said:

Unfortunately, that's how a religion is judged by outsiders. Are the people really living up to what they say?

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We can only try, Baha'u'llah left no doubt, call yourself a Baha'i, then be a Baha'i. Then he said the thing that will mostly hurt a cause is if one does not live by the required standard.

But I see many have arisen and made themselves a new race of men. Little by little, day by day.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

... the number 666. Someone here said that 666 refers to the year 666 AD. Apparently, that wasn't you?

.

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That's not what Bahai's believe. This is the Bahai view: '666' is 666 years after birth of Christ, which is the year 661, the rise of Muawiyeh, who opposed the divinely ordained successorship in Islam.

.

But again, why are all the dragons and beasts made Islamic leaders? Why not an evil Pope or the English empire? But none of the dynasties lasted for 1260 years? Even if they did, they all started after the date that Islam began. So to add 1260 to them would add up to beyond 1844.

.

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No, the Baha'is believe 1260 years, is the duration of Islamic dispensation.
This was prophesied in Bible as follows:


“I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. But exclude the outer court do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months”. Revelation 11:1-2


So, according to this prophecy, the holy city, which is Jerusalem will be given to Gentiles according to the Will of God. The Gentiles are basically the non Jews, according to many Bible scholars.

Now there is also a match in the history for this.

From Wikipedia:

“The Islamization of Jerusalem began in the first year A.H. (623 CE), when Muslims were instructed to face the city while performing their daily prostrations and, according to Muslim religious tradition, Muhammad's night journey and ascension to heaven took place”

Jerusalem - Wikipedia


So, the first year in Islamic Calendar is a beginning of period that the Holy city was given to Arabs in a Religious Sense.

But for how long was it given to them? The Bible says 42 months.

Lets see if history and religion can match here.
42 months is 1260 days, and in Bible, each day of Lord is 1 year.

That would be 1260 years.
When you count 1260 lunar years, beginning year 623 CE, it comes to the year 1844. Now this is the year that the Bab declared a new Revelation, thus, the Holy City which was given to Islam, was taken from them, in a sense that, Islam was abrogated. In year 1844 also an edict was signed, which initiated the process of return of the Jews.

From Wikipedia , the return was initiated in year 1844, when the Ottoman Empire signed an edict of tolerance which:
“….infers religious tolerance through ending executions for apostasy for Jews that seemed to convert making their social situation easier while actually keeping their personal and group identity in their Judaic religion. Jerusalem has had the largest Jewish population in Palestine in recent centuries since about 1844…”

Edict of Toleration 1844 - Wikipedia


Now, return of Jews to Holy Land was also prophesied in Bible in this manner:

"This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: 'The LORD bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain…..The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.” Jerm. 31:23-31

What is noteworthy is that according to this Prophecy, return of Jews would happen at a time God makes a new covenant, and from Baha'i point of view, Revelation of the Bab was a new Covenant revealed in 1844, the year that edict was signed and Jews begin to return.

David T said:

Nature. Always talked about rarely listened to. Most people spend way too much time following people who originally simply listened to nature not to teachers. I don't think they intended to create followers of them I think their goal has always been train listeners of nature.

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That’s an interresting viewpoint.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

We can only try, Baha'u'llah left no doubt, call yourself a Baha'i, then be a Baha'i. Then he said the thing that will mosy hurt a cause is if one does not lve bu the required standard.

But I see many have arisen and made themselves a new race of men. Little by little, day by day.

Regards Tony

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I wish I could share some 200th Birthday cake with you all but as that’s not possible I’ll make the sacrifice and eat your share reluctantly.

loverofhumanity said:

I wish I could share some 200th Birthday cake with you all but as that’s not possible I’ll make the sacrifice and eat your share reluctantly.

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That is a beauty, wish I could have had a piece.

Much happiness to you both, hope you had a great time.

Regards Tony

oldbadger said:

Sen, I opened your blog.... Sensday..... excellent.

I read the Oct 19th incident report.
Do you know the Iranian laws about how many Bahais or Christians etc can meet at one time?
I'll go have a look around but IT was never my world.

It does look, on the face of it, that an unlawful meeting was being held, if so, then that has placed men, women and children in serious harm's way. Bahais must keep to the law or they could seek refuge in other countries, preferably western ones, because I just don't klnow how they might get on in Sunni lands.

Don't you go there! Wow!

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The rules are not written down: the various authorities in a town each make their own rules, and they may be different from the rules in a neighbouring town. Generally speaking, Bahais will be OK meeting in small groups in private homes. I recall hearing of one town where the municipal authorities had said up to nine was OK, but who knows what the Pasdaran or Basiji or the Ministry of Intelligence might say?

It is the Iranian governing apparatus that breaks the law, by persecuting Bahais for acting in ways that are perfectly legal. This NY Times article gives the general idea :

An Ayatollah’s Daughter Prompts a Debate on Religious Persecution in Iran

loverofhumanity said:

That’s an interresting viewpoint.

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well good. Try it out", although you may hear what you didn't want to hear!!!! But that's nature now isnt it.
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loverofhumanity said:

That’s an interresting viewpoint.

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Well in ancient times 500 bc or so, heraclitus said " the logos is common but every one seems tto have their own understanding." I don't see much that actually has changed in 2,600 years, just lots of clothing changes is all.

CG Didymus said:

Other problems. The dragon is the Ummayads? But they didn't last 1260 years in power. The beast is also the Ummayads and the slain then healed head is Andalusia? But in 13:3 it says the whole world was amazed and followed after the beast? No.

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Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

How about all the known world in biblical times. that wouldn't have included New Zealand and USA, but it would have included much of the known world that the Umayyad Caliphate covered.



The expansion of the caliphate under the Umayyads: Expansion under Muhammad, 622–632 (brown) Expansion during the Rashidun Caliphate, 632–661 (red) Expansion during the Umayyad Caliphate, 661–750 (yellow)

CG Didymus said:

The second beast is the Abbasid dynasty? 13:12 says this beast makes all the Earth to worship the first beast whose fatal wound was healed? No. And this beast has his mark or number put on people... the number 666. Someone here said that 666 refers to the year 666 AD. Apparently, that wasn't you?

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IT has covered this point.

CG Didymus said:

But again, why are all the dragons and beasts made Islamic leaders? Why not an evil Pope or the English empire? But none of the dynasties lasted for 1260 years?

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If it had covered a Pope or the British Empire then the sceptics would be saying what about Islam? The Islamic caliphate existed for nearly 1300 years. Its empires have ruled over the Holy Land for most of that time. How long did the British Empire or even the Catholics rule over the Holy Land? Not long! Who is the best candidate to be the Gentiles who trampled the Holy Land underfoot? The Caliphates of course.

CG Didymus said:

Even if they did, they all started after the date that Islam began. So to add 1260 to them would add up to beyond 1844. But for Baha'is to think the "Woes" refer to "manifestations" is odd.

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Think about Noah and the response of the peoples to Noah's message and the consequences of failing to do so. Consider the response of the Jewish people to Christ and their subsequent plight. Consider the perversion of Islam and what happened. What happened to the Caliphate and Persian empires that opposed the Baha'i revelation. How about Napoleon III and Czar Alexandra II of Russia? What has been the consequence of humanities failure to respond to the Divine summons to the Kings and Rulers of the earth? What further judgement on the peoples of the world for their failure to heed Baha'u'llah's message today? Woe is quite an appropriate word, wouldn't you think?

Carlita said:

Adrian and Vinayaka mentioned where they are from (their country, mind you not their city or address) many times in general conversation with others not just me. So, it was something that stuck especially learning about New Zealand politics and all.

I was having a conversation with my friend 3 in the morning and every time I say something, she has to correct me or give me another version of my opinion or fact rather than her own opinion or fact. It got me upset, I literally drop the phone, went in front my altar, and prayed. I came back, picked up the phone with her saying "are you there?" and I said I needed to take a break.

Basically, that's what I would do when you are angry. Take a break, pray, couple of breathes, or something. I can understand if we were in person. We can't always control our first responses. Online, though, we have time and edit and review. We can read a post Monday and come back to it Friday, if we want to and/or do remember, that is.

Takes a lot of discipline and a whole lot of chocolate kisses.

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When I heard the Dalai Lama speak in my home town over 20 years he was asked how he copes with anger. He said sometimes we need to breath and count to 10. I think sometimes we need to take even longer, maybe a thousand.

adrian009 said:

When I heard the Dalai Lama speak in my home town over 20 years he was asked how he copes with anger. He said sometimes we need to breath and count to 10. I think sometimes we need to take even longer, maybe a thousand.

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I got my good habit from playing Professional Golf at too young an age of maturity The John McEnroe of the Golf Course. There was no such thing as sports psychology back in the 70's

Like a kettle slow to boil then blows it head. Got better over the years, but injustice still fires me every now and again. Once blown, all good, can pour the water make the cuppa and relax.

Might go another year on the boil.......the way the worlds going, better get a dummy!

Regards Tony

Sen McGlinn said:

The rules are not written down: the various authorities in a town each make their own rules, and they may be different from the rules in a neighbouring town.

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Hello again...
Our District, City, Regional and County Councils do write all their Byelaws because they have to post them, but they do vary considerably.
Iran Councils probably do comminicate their local rules and laws, but maybe they use cryers, or whatever?
But since the country is Shia Muslim, and since it is bound to protect its own faith, together with any fears that alternate religions might grow, I expect that being a Bahai would be much more risky than not being one.

Generally speaking, Bahais will be OK meeting in small groups in private homes. I recall hearing of one town where the municipal authorities had said up to nine was OK, but who knows what the Pasdaran or Basiji or the Ministry of Intelligence might say?

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That would explain one of the incidents that you described before, possibly, where police raided a home, arrested all and cleared the oplace for any possible evidence.

It is the Iranian governing apparatus that breaks the law, by persecuting Bahais for acting in ways that are perfectly legal.

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That's the thing about governments, they can change laws and do some very bad things.
I remember the UK miner's strikes in the early 80s; the government was closing mines and laying off the workers whilst importing less expensive coal from Columbia which was mined mostly by minors. EDIT: excuse the pun, I mean children!
The miners were picketing the ports in large numbers, so Mounted Police cavalry was ordered to charge the lines, armed with long batons.
How soon we forget.

This NY Times article gives the general idea :
An Ayatollah’s Daughter Prompts a Debate on Religious Persecution in Iran

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I opened the above link and read through...... and so an Ayatollah's daughter, a Muslim of course, was not above the law; she was imprisoned for some offence which is how she met with the Bahai lady.

I notice that there are 10,000 Bahais living in Tehran alone. I can't help questioning far too much, but that's me. I do wonder what the % of criminal convictions of Bahais is as compared with the % of criminal convictuions for Muslims?

Small groups tend to focus only upon their own difficulties which is understandable, but it produces innaccurate pictures sometimes.
Example? You're a reporter and might know this, we know that 6 million Jews were murdered in the Nazi Death camps in WWII...... how many JWs, Gipsies, Blacks, Gays, Latvians, other religions and Ukranians were murdered as well? The final total needs to be over 13 millions of people.

siti said:

............ TM because the British public apparently thought it was perfectly sensible to throw away 40 years of commitment to the cause of European unity in favour of a dream that most of them have only ever heard of in tales told to them by grandparents of grandparents - a country called "Great" Britain.

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Yes.... you're right.
Decades ago a Politician (in ratings trouble) promised a few quid in everybody's pocket if s/he would vote for his party. Yep...... He won.

Brexit was voted for because the masses were angry about immigration. All the rest of the equation was ignored.

I can't see how that is going to change in a hurry - apart from merely stating (in flowery platitudes) that it must change - how? How will the Baha'i system make it change?

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Hmmmm...... very difficult to remove governments at any level. Nobody would be allowed to campaign and publish their message of deliverance for that would be unlawful.

How's Robert Mugabe getting along?

I don't know what that means. How can you have an election without electioneering?

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Brilliant question..... such a simple question, yet how profoundly it activvates thought.

Brexit is a perfect example of that - having voted to leave the European Union, the people will never vote for a candidate that tells them the truth about the hard economic times that will follow as a result and every government and prime minister for the next twenty years will carry the impossible weight of completely unrealistic public expectations. Nobody who tells the truth will be elected and nobody who is elected will be able to live up to expectations.

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But....... nobody, mostly nobody in any party believed that Mr Corbyn had a snowbal in hell's chance of any success, and at the last election he threw the government into a foul up whereby it had to pander to a small political party in Northern Ireland in order to achieve a majority.

Sometimes, only sometimes, we do surprise even ourselves.

And unless you can change human nature, that is not going to change either. How will a Baha'i system really make that happen - make people truly satisfied with what can only ever be a compromise.

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Have a look at today's theocracies and you might find answers to the question...?