How are these Great Beings explained?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The system is funny, it does not load in all the posts, I note I miss many, sometimes I see a small note on the bottom of the page telling me there are other unread posts, but not all the time? Strange indeed

Regards Tony

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Yes, I was reading along and found a response to a post that I hadn't read. I clicked on it and went back to a whole page I had missed.

Sen McGlinn said:

You do get it, congratulations. Bahais are subject to both sets of laws, but the laws of the civil government come first, the religious laws come second. Shoghi Effendi writes :

" Let them proclaim that in whatever country they reside, and however advanced their institutions, or profound their desire to enforce the laws, and apply the principles, enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh, they will, unhesitatingly, subordinate the operation of such laws and the application of such principles to the requirements and legal enactments of their respective governments. Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries."​

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 65)

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Sen, I'm so glad you're here. I had no idea that you had lost your membership. I lived in Southern California and was involved with Baha'is when the "Dialogue" magazine and the "Modest Proposal" article was published. What happened to those people is something that has always bothered me about the Faith. I'm too much of a religious renegade to have lasted long in the Baha'i Faith. It sounds like you still believe in it strongly. Good luck on getting reinstated.

adrian009 said:

I don't like long posts with lots of quotations, as with many on this thread. However we are dealing with an extremely weighty and important topic here.

The Baha'is are very positive about many of the social, political, and religious developments over the last century or so. In contrast to some Christian denominations who fear one world governments and label organisations like the United Nations, the beast, the Baha'is are extremely positive about international organisations that promote social and economic integration despite their obvious flaws and limitations.

The Baha'i vision again:

“A world community in which all economic barriers will have been permanently demolished and the interdependence of capital and labour definitely recognized; in which the clamour of religious fanaticism and strife will have been forever stilled; in which the flame of racial animosity will have been finally extinguished; in which a single code of international law—the product of the considered judgement of the world’s federated representatives—shall have as its sanction the instant and coercive intervention of the combined forces of the federated units; and finally a world community in which the fury of a capricious and militant nationalism will have been transmuted into an abiding consciousness of world citizenship—such indeed, appears, in its broadest outline, the Order anticipated by Bahá’u’lláh, an Order that shall come to be regarded as the fairest fruit of a slowly maturing age.”

and

The implementation of these far-reaching measures was indicated by Bahá’u’lláh: “The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men.”

The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice



It will be for governments to decide, as they do now. Governments of the future will be better at it, and in contrast to the more extreme lassaiz faire free market policies where the business entrepreneurs will take care of everything both to do with economics and social welfare, they will be much more concerned and proactively engaged with meeting social need.

On the one hand, people of all nations proclaim not only their readiness but their longing for peace and harmony, for an end to the harrowing apprehensions tormenting their daily lives. On the other, uncritical assent is given to the proposition that human beings are incorrigibly selfish and aggressive and thus incapable of erecting a social system at once progressive and peaceful, dynamic and harmonious, a system giving free play to individual creativity and initiative but based on co-operation and reciprocity.



This is pivotal to a more peaceful and prosperous global community IMHO. Some socialist principles are entirely consistent with the spirit of the new age and Baha'i teachings. However:

'The inordinate disparity between rich and poor, a source of acute suffering, keeps the world in a state of instability, virtually on the brink of war. Few societies have dealt effectively with this situation. The solution calls for the combined application of spiritual, moral and practical approaches. A fresh look at the problem is required, entailing consultation with experts from a wide spectrum of disciplines, devoid of economic and ideological polemics, and involving the people directly affected in the decisions that must urgently be made. It is an issue that is bound up not only with the necessity for eliminating extremes of wealth and poverty but also with those spiritual verities the understanding of which can produce a new universal attitude. Fostering such an attitude is itself a major part of the solution.'

The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice



Flat Tax or Graduated Tax?

No, it is a well established economic principle to assist managing the inordinate disparity between wealth and poverty.

The significance of this Baha'i Teaching, is not that it is something new, but in keeping with the spirit of the age. Many Baha'i Teachings that would have seemed fringe a century ago, are now mainstream now.



Profit sharing has becoming increasingly utilised by businesses as it results in a more motivated workforce, and a more humane working environment, where everyone feels much more engaged and part of the team.

Also, every factory that has ten thousand shares will give two thousand shares of these ten thousand to its employees and will write the shares in their names, so that they may have them, and the rest will belong to the capitalists. Then at the end of the month or year whatever they may earn after the expenses and wages are paid, according to the number of shares, should be divided among both.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 43)

Profit Sharing

It should be emphasised again that Baha'u'llah did not bring an economic system, and this will develop organically over time.

Bahá’u’lláh did not bring a complete system of economics to the world. Profit sharing is recommended as a solution to one form of economic problems. There is nothing in the teachings against some kind of capitalism; its present form, though, would require adjustments to be made.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Directives from the Guardian, Pages 20-21



Once again mainstream Baha'i ideology and keeping with the spirit of the age. Politicians here don't always have the best reputation for walking the talk. How about in your country?

The time has come when those who preach the dogmas of materialism, whether of the east or the west, whether of capitalism or socialism, must give account of the moral stewardship they have presumed to exercise. Where is the “new world” promised by these ideologies? Where is the international peace to whose ideals they proclaim their devotion? Where are the breakthroughs into new realms of cultural achievement produced by the aggrandizement of this race, of that nation or of a particular class? Why is the vast majority of the world’s peoples sinking ever deeper into hunger and wretchedness when wealth on a scale undreamed of by the Pharaohs, the Caesars, or even the imperialist powers of the nineteenth century is at the disposal of the present arbiters of human affairs?

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What has been happening since the release of the "Peace" statement? How are Baha'is promoting it? And, is anybody listening?

CG Didymus said:

What has been happening since the release of the "Peace" statement? How are Baha'is promoting it? And, is anybody listening?

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We haven't started any wars yet. Does that count?

oldbadger said:

I'm wondering about that! Yes!
There are also many thousands of Christian Creeds after 2000 years, mostly caused by people having dreams, or receiving spiritual messages, or reading Paul and the fake letters rather than focusing upon a man who picked up the Baptist's campaign against Temple and Priesthood corruption and greed.
The Baptist was the man who started it all.
Christianity is very very strange to me.

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Yes, I remember the Moonies. But Christianity is strange? I love it... all forty or fifty versions of it... the ones that aren't too strange. The rest are all wackos. My favorites are the Amish and the snake-handlers... oh yes and the "name it and claim it" ones. I go to their church service and sing the song, "Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz..." And, out of necessity, I go to a healing service after taking part in the snake-handling service.

Vinayaka said:

It's confusing from the outside. The way the Baha'i's disagree on here (only in their answers to questions to outsiders, never directly to each other) you'd think some of them would be wrong enough to have their voting rights taken away. Seems to me they say far more 'off the official stuff' than Sen did. But then he was publishing a lot too, and theirs is just in dialogue with us.

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It is also very uncommon to have membership removed by the Universal House of Justice. I am aware of only one instance in New Zealand, one of Sen's friends living in my hometown.

None of the Baha'is here such as LH, TB, and IT would come remotely close to being approached by any of the Baha'i institutions.

Carlita said:

I don't care for how the author explained it; has some bias in it at the end. I liked how he says The Buddha uplifted the status of women. At one time, even, women couldn't be enlightened. I don't agree with the Indian view of marriage. But then, the suttas isn't a sacred scripture book and The Buddha is a human being. I guess it depends on the culture for me, feel all people can get married to whomever they want to commit themselves too. Don't know if back then other types of marriages (if there is such a thing) existed.

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I'm actually entirely comfortable with the way it is written. I was wondering how you felt about different gender roles such as women having babies and rearing children and men earning a living while the woman stays home caring for children. Is that regressive sexism we should do away with?

Vinayaka said:

Yes that's where it gets tricky. I know all too well, because of my Sri Lankan friends. If you are forced to watch your mother and sister get raped, and your father hacked by axe, yeah, you might hold some resentment.

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That would be hard to forgive under those circumstances, no doubt, but resentment can sit like a stone tarnishing the light and life of the spirit.

The torture and murder of Baha'is doesn't paint a pretty picture either.

oldbadger said:

Clearly it was massively different. In many ways my wife's group was like a Universal Unitarian .... honest.
They were very big on the Bahai miracles.... I haven't heard a word about them in the last 30 years.

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Baha'is are discouraged from emphasising the miracles in our faith as proof.

oldbadger said:

Ah...... I became acquainted with various aspects of mental health, as a layman, because of my late wife's extraordinary mental disabilities. She was entered into a very special clinic adjacent to Guy's Hospital where extreme and unusual cases were observed. I say 'observed' because I came to believe that my wife could not be treated or made better in any way.
One doctor, psychotherapist who visited her for therapy did make a tremendous difference and my wife remained more or less stable between therapies. I think I know how he might have achieved that. He was later convicted and sentenced to 8 years imprisonment on 13 specimen charges (there were hundreds of victims) of patient rape. (Dr A.)

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That's very disturbing.

oldbadger said:

I don't think that people can choose their beliefs....... they just get shackled to them.

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I agree, sometimes they are.

oldbadger said:

Maybe its better to ask questions?

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True. We often don't do enough of simply asking questions, and instead assume we know when we don't.

oldbadger said:

All though the laws of Moses were written to suit the situation long long ago, the 507 laws are fantastic. Every single one of them is written to make the Israelites more secure, stronger, more successful, more cohesed, and more community orientated. The poor-laws are just wonderful. I have ommitted the 96 sacrificial laws of course.

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The Mosaic law despite its antiquity and being out of date is till magnificent to behold, and remains a proof of the God of Abraham IMHO.

adrian009 said:

The birth of the Baha'i Faith is most vividly illustrated within the initial verses of Revelation 12.

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Flag of Iran - Wikipedia

Flags of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

Let's check out the flags of the Persian empire and the Ottoman empires. Note the sun and the moon. This could be interpreted as the Baha'i Faith being born out of the Persian and Ottoman Empires.

The twelve stars are the twelve Imams who were the promoters of the true Islam.

Back to Chapter 11, and Revelation 11:11

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

According to Abdu'l-Baha
Three days and a half, as we before explained, is twelve hundred and sixty years. Those two persons whose bodies were lying spiritless are the teachings and the law that Muḥammad established and ‘Alí promoted, from which, however, the reality had departed and only the form remained. The spirit came again into them means that those foundations and teachings were again established. In other words, the spirituality of the Religion of God had been changed into materiality, and virtues into vices; the love of God had been changed into hatred, enlightenment into darkness, divine qualities into satanic ones, justice into tyranny, mercy into enmity, sincerity into hypocrisy, guidance into error, and purity into sensuality. Then after three days and a half, which by the terminology of the Holy Books is twelve hundred and sixty years, these divine teachings, heavenly virtues, perfections and spiritual bounties were again renewed by the appearance of the Báb and the devotion of Jináb-i-Quddús.
The holy breezes were diffused, the light of truth shone forth, the season of the life-giving spring came, and the morn of guidance dawned. These two lifeless bodies again became living, and these two great ones—one the Founder and the other the promoter—arose and were like two candlesticks, for they illumined the world with the light of truth.

So there we have the birth or coming to life or resurrection of the holy Religion of God...the Baha'i faith through His Holiness the Bab and His most outstanding Follower Quddus.

Quddús - Wikipedia

How did Islam try to prevent it?

In Revelation 12:4-5
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Abdu'l-Baha says:
As we have before explained, this woman is the Law of God. The dragon was standing near the woman to devour her child, and this child was the promised Manifestation, the offspring of the Law of Muḥammad. The Umayyads were always waiting to get possession of the Promised One, Who was to come from the line of Muḥammad, to destroy and annihilate Him; for they much feared the appearance of the promised Manifestation, and they sought to kill any of Muḥammad’s descendants who might be highly esteemed.
Verse 5. “And she brought forth a man child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.” This great son is the promised Manifestation Who was born of the Law of God and reared in the bosom of the divine teachings. The iron rod is a symbol of power and might—it is not a sword—and means that with divine power and might He will shepherd all the nations of the earth. This son is the Báb.

Back to Revelation 11:12-14
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Adbu'l-Baha explains:
“And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven,” meaning that from the invisible heaven they heard the voice of God, saying: You have performed all that was proper and fitting in delivering the teachings and glad tidings; you have given My message to the people and raised the call of God, and have accomplished your duty. Now, like Christ, you must sacrifice your life for the Well-Beloved, and be martyrs. And that Sun of Reality, and that Moon of Guidance, both, like Christ, set on the horizon of the greatest martyrdom and ascended to the Kingdom of God.

“And their enemies beheld them,” meaning that many of their enemies, after witnessing their martyrdom, realized the sublimity of their station and the exaltation of their virtue, and testified to their greatness and perfection.

“And the same hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand.”

This earthquake occurred in Shíráz after the martyrdom of the Báb. The city was in a turmoil, and many people were destroyed. Great agitation also took place through diseases, cholera, dearth, scarcity, famine and afflictions, the like of which had never been known.

“And the remnant was affrighted and gave glory to the God of heaven.”

When the earthquake took place in Fárs, all the remnant lamented and cried day and night, and were occupied in glorifying and praying to God. They were so troubled and affrighted that they had no sleep nor rest at night.

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muḥammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.





And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Revelation 11:8

Adbu'l-Baha explains:
“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” “Their bodies” means the Religion of God, and “the street” means in public view. The meaning of “Sodom and Egypt,” the place “where also our Lord was crucified,” is this region of Syria, and especially Jerusalem, where the Umayyads then had their dominions; and it was here that the Religion of God and the divine teachings first disappeared, and a body without spirit remained. “Their bodies” represents the Religion of God, which remained like a dead body without spirit.


Crucifixion symbolised death of the Manifestation of God or the Christ.



Why would a prophetic book written 70 years after Chrsits crucifixion prophecise Christ being crucified?



? I'm not sure what you mean.



It's been explained above.



As above again. in addition the number seven symbolises perfection or completeness and 1,000 a great multitude.

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You asked, "Why would a prophetic book written 70 years after Chrsits crucifixion prophecise Christ being crucified?"

It says the two witnesses lie dead in the street in the city where their Lord was crucified. And then to clarify the other point is that it says the "Lord" of the two witnesses is the one who was crucified. Is this Jesus? If so, then how is Jesus the "Lord" of Muhammad and Ali? God is their Lord isn't he? Not Jesus, the manifestation.

I've asked about the problems with the 1260 days/years in another post. But the gist of the question is: We have 1260 mentioned five times. So when was the Holy City trampled in Rev 11:2. Whenever that date is, we add the 1260 years. Rev 11:3... When did the two witnesses start prophesying. From that date, we add 1260 years.

Rev 11:9... The two witnesses are killed. When did that happen? From that date, we add 1260, because they lie in the street for 31/2 days or the 1260 years.

Rev 12:6... The woman gives birth then flees. When did that happen? From that date she is in the wilderness for 1260 years.

Rev 13:5... the beast gets authority from the dragon. When did that happen? From that point, the beast exercises his authority for the 1260 years.

Rev 13:11... No more 1260 year references, but here's another beast that comes after the first beast. So it has to be after the 1260 years of the first beast, doesn't it? But we do get a supposed date from this beast, the number of his name is 666, which Baha'is have made into a date... the start of the Ummayad dynasty?

Fine, let's pretend that is what 666 stands for. What does 666 to 1844 equal? My calculator says 1178. Since you use "lunar" years what does it equal? But... there's another problem... How long did the Ummayads stay in power? If not all the way to 1844, what good is using them as the beast that has authority for 1260 years?

Anyway, I looked it up. The caliphate was ruled by the Umayyad dynasty hailing from Mecca. An Umayyad clan member had previously come to power as the third Rashidun Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan (r. 644–656), but official Umayyad rule was established by Muawiya ibn Abi Sufyan, long-time governor of Syria, after the end of the First Muslim Civil War in AD 661.

So how did Baha'is get 666 as the date? But then, on top of that, the Ummayads didn't stay in power for 1260 years.

The Abbasid Revolution refers to the overthrow of the Umayyad Caliphate (661–750 CE), the second of the four major Caliphates in early Islamic history, by the third, the Abbasid Caliphate (750–1258 CE).

So sorry... still skeptical.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Try this one so we can stick to that one topic, not sure how much time I can spend on answering, but will do what I can.

The significance of 1844 in Bible Prophecy

Regards Tony

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Thanks for that chart again. I will reference that a lot in my questioning.

adrian009 said:

You want a nice easy story, go watch a movie or read a book.



I suppose we need to walk before we can run. Who is the blind? Am I blinded by my religion as you suggested in another post or are you blind because you can't you can't see what I see? We're all blinded by the light to some extent.

First up, you need to be convinced that the beast represents an empire. I'm not sure you are.

How familiar are you with prophecy?

How about the 4 beasts in Daniel 7 ? Who do they represent?

So those beasts in revelation. Why not 13 heads and 15 horns? Why do we keep having the same number of heads and horns?

The JWs link the beasts together.

What Is the Seven-Headed Wild Beast of Revelation 13? | Bible Questions

So why can't the Baha'is do it?

What's an alternative explanation?

A wise man once said:
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:12



The Lamb is a Messianic title just as 'son of man' and 'son of God.' It is used on multiple occasions (at least 29) throughout Revelation, sometimes in different ways.

Lamb of God - Wikipedia



We calculate from the Hijrah in 622 AD and use lunar years. The Hijrah marks the start of the Islamic Calendar. 1844 on the Gregorian calendar is the same as 1260 on the Islamic Calendar. Any Calendar converter will tell you that.

Hegira. ... The Hegira or Hijrah (Arabic: هِجْرَة‎‎) is the migration or journey of the Islamic prophet Muhammad and his followers from Mecca to Yathrib, later renamed by him to Medina, in the year 622.

Islamic calendar - Wikipedia



I'm beginning to wonder if you are out of your depth, and would be better studying Daniel. A lot of Daniel concerns events that have already happened and Baha'is and Christians would agree on. It is also important to understand how Christ fulfilled prophecies in the OT to be the Jewish messiah. The book of revelation is the arguably the most difficult book in the bible, and if you are serious about understanding it, may be better off, looking at similar apocalyptic type writings that the Christians have had centuries to unravel.

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I am reading a book, Revelation. I have another post about this same problem with multiple references to 1260. If you and Abdu'l Baha can't make sense of them to me, am I the problem or you? I don't know how I can make my questions about the multiple uses 1260 more clear.

We have a lot more chapters to get into and Abdu'l Baha won't be there with his "infallible" interpretation. So where are you getting this? How "official" is it? Is it interpretations given by Baha'i scholars of what?

Vinayaka said:

It's confusing from the outside. The way the Baha'i's disagree on here (only in their answers to questions to outsiders, never directly to each other) you'd think some of them would be wrong enough to have their voting rights taken away. Seems to me they say far more 'off the official stuff' than Sen did. But then he was publishing a lot too, and theirs is just in dialogue with us.

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Did you ever get a chance, or the desire, to check out the Dialogue Magazine and the article they printed called "A Modest Proposal"? There's definite censorship going on. I guess they need to, so wild ideas don't creep in. But it must stifle a lot of free-thinking people that have joined the Faith.

CG Didymus said:

Did you ever get a chance, or the desire, to check out the Dialogue Magazine and the article they printed called "A Modest Proposal"? There's definite censorship going on. I guess they need to, so wild ideas don't creep in. But it must stifle a lot of free-thinking people that have joined the Faith.

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You can be as free thinking as you wish. As long as the free thinking is always noted as your view and only your view.

One can never say in that view that they talk on or behalf of the Baha'i Community, saying they are "a Bahai theologian, writing from and for a religious community".

You could write with personal reflections as a Baha'i, but personally I would never openly question the Universal House Of Justice and their Decisions. There is too much guidance about the wisdom in our submission to this Covenanted process to take the process to lightly.

Unity works when we give ourselves to what is required. True pride, is in submission of ones own will, to the good of all.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

You will have to offer proof for this statement

All Baha'i's are Law abiding Citizens and the Iranians are the most outstanding, staunch and dedicated Baha'is there are.

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........ and many live there.
......... and they don't ALL get arrested and imprisoned or executed!
So just being a Bahai does not upset the Iranian law enforcers.

I don't like Iran. Iran has laws. Theological Laws. I don't like that. Me?...I'd keep clear of the place. But if I was a Bahai living in an Islamic Theocracy I would read the law, know the law, keep the law, refrain from inciting others to break the law, and I certainlyy would not educate children to ignore the law either.

So what law are they not following, is there a Law that says they are not allowed to be a Baha'i? That could not be followed, but Iran is a signatory to religous freedom.

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If you don't want to see, don't bother to look!
It took a moment or two to find that Bahais are not educating children to Islamic Lesson Plans.
There will be more if I look. If you don't want to see, don't bother to look.

Maybe you mean that it is the Iranian Government breaking their own laws in the persecution of the Baha'is, as that is what is happening.

Regards Tony

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I don't like ran. If I'm right, and I probably am, that Bahais do not, say, follow education law in countries like Iran, then there will be other actions that they have deliberately undertaken.

I don't like Iran, but Bahai must keep the laws of the lands that they live in.

I don't like Iran. If Bahai ran a school here in the UK (which rich Bahais may well have) then they'd probably be breaking the law here. Certainly, Montesauri teachers (and other home schooling teachers) operate, teaching Bahai children here.

You don't see that, do you..... you need me to tell you that any body which teaches children in the UK is required to stay with the national curriculum.

Bahais need to keep the law to the letter or get out to safety.

adrian009 said:

I don't like long posts with lots of quotations, as with many on this thread. However we are dealing with an extremely weighty and important topic here.

The Baha'is are very positive about many of the social, political, and religious developments over the last century or so. In contrast to some Christian denominations who fear one world governments and label organisations like the United Nations, the beast, the Baha'is are extremely positive about international organisations that promote social and economic integration despite their obvious flaws and limitations.

The Baha'i vision again:

“A world community in which all economic barriers will have been permanently demolished and the interdependence of capital and labour definitely recognized; in which the clamour of religious fanaticism and strife will have been forever stilled; in which the flame of racial animosity will have been finally extinguished; in which a single code of international law—the product of the considered judgement of the world’s federated representatives—shall have as its sanction the instant and coercive intervention of the combined forces of the federated units; and finally a world community in which the fury of a capricious and militant nationalism will have been transmuted into an abiding consciousness of world citizenship—such indeed, appears, in its broadest outline, the Order anticipated by Bahá’u’lláh, an Order that shall come to be regarded as the fairest fruit of a slowly maturing age.”

and

The implementation of these far-reaching measures was indicated by Bahá’u’lláh: “The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men.”

The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice



It will be for governments to decide, as they do now. Governments of the future will be better at it, and in contrast to the more extreme lassaiz faire free market policies where the business entrepreneurs will take care of everything both to do with economics and social welfare, they will be much more concerned and proactively engaged with meeting social need.

On the one hand, people of all nations proclaim not only their readiness but their longing for peace and harmony, for an end to the harrowing apprehensions tormenting their daily lives. On the other, uncritical assent is given to the proposition that human beings are incorrigibly selfish and aggressive and thus incapable of erecting a social system at once progressive and peaceful, dynamic and harmonious, a system giving free play to individual creativity and initiative but based on co-operation and reciprocity.



This is pivotal to a more peaceful and prosperous global community IMHO. Some socialist principles are entirely consistent with the spirit of the new age and Baha'i teachings. However:

'The inordinate disparity between rich and poor, a source of acute suffering, keeps the world in a state of instability, virtually on the brink of war. Few societies have dealt effectively with this situation. The solution calls for the combined application of spiritual, moral and practical approaches. A fresh look at the problem is required, entailing consultation with experts from a wide spectrum of disciplines, devoid of economic and ideological polemics, and involving the people directly affected in the decisions that must urgently be made. It is an issue that is bound up not only with the necessity for eliminating extremes of wealth and poverty but also with those spiritual verities the understanding of which can produce a new universal attitude. Fostering such an attitude is itself a major part of the solution.'

The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice



Flat Tax or Graduated Tax?

No, it is a well established economic principle to assist managing the inordinate disparity between wealth and poverty.

The significance of this Baha'i Teaching, is not that it is something new, but in keeping with the spirit of the age. Many Baha'i Teachings that would have seemed fringe a century ago, are now mainstream now.



Profit sharing has becoming increasingly utilised by businesses as it results in a more motivated workforce, and a more humane working environment, where everyone feels much more engaged and part of the team.

Also, every factory that has ten thousand shares will give two thousand shares of these ten thousand to its employees and will write the shares in their names, so that they may have them, and the rest will belong to the capitalists. Then at the end of the month or year whatever they may earn after the expenses and wages are paid, according to the number of shares, should be divided among both.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 43)

Profit Sharing

It should be emphasised again that Baha'u'llah did not bring an economic system, and this will develop organically over time.

Bahá’u’lláh did not bring a complete system of economics to the world. Profit sharing is recommended as a solution to one form of economic problems. There is nothing in the teachings against some kind of capitalism; its present form, though, would require adjustments to be made.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Directives from the Guardian, Pages 20-21



Once again mainstream Baha'i ideology and keeping with the spirit of the age. Politicians here don't always have the best reputation for walking the talk. How about in your country?

The time has come when those who preach the dogmas of materialism, whether of the east or the west, whether of capitalism or socialism, must give account of the moral stewardship they have presumed to exercise. Where is the “new world” promised by these ideologies? Where is the international peace to whose ideals they proclaim their devotion? Where are the breakthroughs into new realms of cultural achievement produced by the aggrandizement of this race, of that nation or of a particular class? Why is the vast majority of the world’s peoples sinking ever deeper into hunger and wretchedness when wealth on a scale undreamed of by the Pharaohs, the Caesars, or even the imperialist powers of the nineteenth century is at the disposal of the present arbiters of human affairs?

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Karl Marx wrote brilliantly, about an Utopia, as well.

Just read that stuff......
Just look at the composition of the average sentence.
This was written for the people???????
The people clearly didn't, aren't and won't believe any of that.

That's a big problem for Bahai...... the kind of people that it attracted back in the day were Middle Class Professionals. Reporters, Lawyers (one became the Bahai lawyer here), Laboratory Technicians. Actors, World=class computter analysts, Teachers, British Steel executives, .......... I met with all of those!

I never met a factory worker or cleaner or taxi driver in the UK........ Do you get it?

And the way that is all written shows simply why the people of the world won't 'click' on it. Go on U Tube and see what goes viral.

I'm sorry to be so negative, but looking at, questioning, investigating....... I can't help it now.

CG Didymus said:

Yes, I remember the Moonies. But Christianity is strange? I love it... all forty or fifty versions of it... the ones that aren't too strange. The rest are all wackos. My favorites are the Amish and the snake-handlers... oh yes and the "name it and claim it" ones. I go to their church service and sing the song, "Oh Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz..." And, out of necessity, I go to a healing service after taking part in the snake-handling service.

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What a great post!
But, come on, the above descriptions are unusual if not strange!

I just love the Pentecostal Christians here......... There are many such churches in London area and they sure can Praise the Lord!....Yeah!'

.......... and others. Healing after snake handling.... yep! And a few antidotes locked in a cupboard could help the good Lord to bring healing, as well.

I've been on a Cancer Pro-Forma Urgent Investigation recently, and they spent thousands on looking at me, extracting fluids from lungs, camera-scoping me, every scan, examination and x-ray you can think of, and since they found asbestos plaques and I had exactly the same symtoms last year we reckoned that I was too late and the results would be bad. My GP looked as if he had sat on chisel, my consultant said very guarded sentences.

And I also went to Healing at the chapel where my granny went in 1967 after being widowed. What the heck, have a go!

But when the consultant said to us both that the results were clear, in similar voice to having won jackpot on a slot machine....... it makes me wonder.

CG Didymus said:

So are decisions made by the UHJ infallible or only meant to be taken as if they are infallible?

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I could not find Sen's post but read it as pasted by you.
By letter!
Decisions taken apart on basis of evidence..... by letter!
No clear and definite reasons in print!
Letters written to others about decisions on an individual.

In the UK juries made the most dreadful decisions, leading to several executions which should never have been carried out. Innocents and Passions killed.

Because our Court Verdicts could be so amazingly daft we struck off the death penalty. I expect we would strike off National Government or even World Government for the same reasons.

And it just amazes me how calm and serene that member is.......... probably one of the best examplars of Bahai around.

oldbadger said:

Bahais need to keep the law to the letter or get out to safety.

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So you are supporting injustice as an allowable base in law? The Constitution in Iran states that "the investigation of individuals' beliefs is forbidden" and that "no one may be molested or taken to task simply for holding a certain belief,"

The problem with Iranian Laws is they are made to suit an agenda and the agenda is to wipe out the Baha'is as the influence they have threatens their hold on the masses.

The Baha'is operate within framework of the overiding Laws, and I challenge you to find a ligitimate charge, or to find a case where a Baha'i was fairly treated under the Law.

You can read about the Status of Religious Freedom at this link - Freedom of religion in Iran - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

adrian009 said:

Baha'is are discouraged from emphasising the miracles in our faith as proof.

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OK..... now... but not back then.

True. We often don't do enough of simply asking questions, and instead assume we know when we don't.

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Yeah..... indeed!

The Mosaic law despite its antiquity and being out of date is till magnificent to behold,...

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Yeah...... so beat that!

and remains a proof of the God of Abraham IMHO.

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Hmmmm..... I rather think that mankind had a head and hand in those.

I once challenged a bunch of skeptics to show me one law of the 507 that was not beneficial for the Israelites back-then. After they had chucked the usual capital-offences at me and been answered, they were stuck...... could not find a single law that was not beneficial.