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How are these Great Beings explained?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Of course Iskcon in Hinduism and SGI Buddhism can be just as evangelical as some of the Abrahamic denominations. Many Abrahamic adherents avoid proselytizing, and some Dharmic practitioners proselytize unconscious of their actions. As previously highlighted this word proselytize has many connotations, mostly negative.

I personally don't see the word negative. Many people put JW down but I did mention I had very good friends who are JW and talked with me, gosh, weekly with new people my friend brought over each week. We'd talk about god and god but then she'd ask me about The Buddha but not about Catholicism, though. She respected my view on Catholicism as I did her view. JW are proselytizers by definition of going doing door-to-door in itself. Nothing wrong with in and of itself.

Also, American culture, if you notice its politics, has an evangelizing spirit. Independence and individualism are some of the cornerstones of this country; so, if you talk to many Americans who haven't traveled elsewhere the majority of their lives, they'd have that "spirit" even when their family oriented.

I don't see Bahai trying to convert on this thread but evangelize. Some of you are on the borderline because a lot of you don't ask nor care about what the other party believes nor entertain for matter of discussion the other person's points of view. It comes across harsh and uncaring.

Like @Vinayaka said, some Bahai have kind of progressed in that "unconditional communication" stance and use clauses to clarify who is who. Arthra and you have a more calm approach.

But I would literally need to visit a Bahai temple to get the feeling of what is what. No one is a victim just glad at some point of time during this thread, you guys had two sided conversations. I wasn't apart of it but it was nice to see.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
You have worked as a detective, I wok as a medical doctor. You should know as I do that any legislation can have many nuances and subtlies that may or may not apply to the Baha'i Faith. The pieces of legislation I have had to study often come in the form of documents that have hundreds of pages that include consideration of how should be applied (or not) in some circumstances.
I expect that they do......... Up 'til now the med world has groped and blundered its way forward but things are changing rapidaly, I'm told. 40+ years ago my Bahai Wife was afflicted with epileptic seizures in the whole spectrum of severity. She was prescribed with epileptic drugs (Epinutim then Epilim and many others etc) as well as meds for horrific psuedo-seizures many times worse than Freud ever filmed.
I don't know how our daughter and first son survived, but our second son was born with the whole list of disabilities, spina-bifida, hydracephalus, clubbed feet, other severe sicknesses and the NHS told us that to place him on 'feed on demand' was the kindest thing.
Two months ago, for the first time in my life and 40+ years later, I discovered that those meds in pregnancy produce those sicknesses, almost as bad as thalidomyde.
My wife died thinking that it was her, no matter how many times I told her that it must surely be something to do with the male's genes she blamed herself. I am so sad that she never knew the truth.
I don't mind that 'they' didn't know about the risks, I'm so sad that they hid the truth from my wife.
It's been a very very strange autumn for me.

It'll be easier for meds in the future. I met with an amazing pharmacist, doctor (and artist) who has turned down two chairs at Baliol in order to carry on in the commercial world. In casual conversation he explained that thousands and thousands of diabetics die each year because unspecialised meds don't know enough about those sicknesses. With a group of colleagues they have been preparing an IT pragram for GPs to complete from obs and it then takes and precribes meds, doses, lifestyles, the lot. Previously such initiatives have been failing, killing as many as before, but IT is slamming into the medical world and will protect meds as well as assisting them. That will help the legal aspects as well.

If it applies to the Baha'i Faith in England then the National Spiritual Assembly of England will have looked at it, and have availed themselves of quality legal advice, then guided their local assemblies and how that applies.
It's dodgy. I don't know how this law impacts upon smaller groups, but even Private clubs which exclude 'characteristics' are needing to wake up and review their policies.
Even our CofE is being dragged, kicking and screaming, towards equality..... we have female priests and Bishops now.

Are you telling me that this legislation means that Catholics must have women priests or Baha'is must have practising gays on their assemblies?
I doubt it, but I don't know.... am not specialised in the legislation, but look at the CofE.... :shrug:
It just shows how the majority is beginning to think, which cannot offer a very hopeful future for religions and groups who stay back.

The Holy Ghost is part of Christian theology. Abdu'l-Baha was in a Christian country and that's the reason he was explaining possible meanings. As a Baha'i I never think about the Holy Ghost unless a Christian wants to talk about it in references to parts of the Bible. I'm not aware that it is a significant part of what Baha'u'llah taught at all, and why would He refer to it, unless He was explaining Christian theology and the NT.
I have every belief now that Bahais believe in the 'Holy Spirit' of God. And the Holy Manifestation of God. And God............ if not together then separate, if it helps their mindsets.

Names: Our prejudices ban us from using various names. One Bahai here cannot put up with the word theocracy because for him it probably means a terrifying religious government that he has intimate knowledge about.
It may be necessary to face the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are the same Divine Entity, there's just prejudice about one of the words.

Baha'is don't believe in a Triune God, but if you want to believe that Baha'is do, we all have freedom of thought and belief.
But we don't have freedom of thought because our past has inserted prejudices into us which make some ideas and words unthinkable.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Who knows? There is always an air of secrecy.

It's people.....!
It has recently been discovered that our last Archbishop of Canterbury in some way impeded or obstructed investigations into the Bishop of Gloucester's sexual abuse of minors. That Bishop was sentenced to about 15 years in prison I seem to remember.

It's people..........!
One of our biggest Superstore chains has been caught false-accounting it's figures in order to inflate share prices.

It's people.......!
You must know about the shocking deceptions committed by several car manufacturers to make deisel engines appear to be fairly clean..... dreadful!

It's people.........!
One of our biggest banks got caught in the USA aiding and abetting the money-laundering of billions for the drug and other gangs.

And so when any group tells me that 'Oh we are obviously above all that......... we're decent, or religious, or whatever!' I chuckle, deep down inside.

It's people...
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Tony, I'm saddened that you have resorted back to random quoting that is very close to proseltysing. Please know that I'm far more interested in what you say today than what a Baha'i' infallible prophet said many years ago.

This isn't a discussion at all.

I am sorry you take that view, it was a great piece of knowledge to partake of and applicable to what was being talked about. I have always appreciated the ease at which Abdul'baha, who is not a Prophet, could talk on any subject and lay the ideas out in a logical sequence.

I can cloth that passage in words that you may mistake as mine, but then that would be deceptive.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
You sound sceptical?

Chapter 12 we have Abdu'l-Baha's commnetary

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Let me know if you have any questions. I know its not an easy read.

Chapter 13

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Revelation 13:1

This must be getting a little familiar by now. Seven headed beast, with ten horns!? Not too many of them in the bible. Yes its the Umayyad dynasty again. Remember the lands the seven heads represent and the kings the 10 horns symbolise?

Here it is again from Revelation 12:3-4

'And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
nd his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.'


The same beast! What really helps is that we have Abdu'l-Baha telling us about the beast. His explanation you may have read:

Verses 3 and 4. “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.” 2 These signs are an allusion to the dynasty of the Umayyads who dominated the Muḥammadan religion. Seven heads and seven crowns mean seven countries and dominions over which the Umayyads had power: they were the Roman dominion around Damascus; and the Persian, Arabian and Egyptian dominions, together with the dominion of Africa—that is to say, Tunis, Morocco and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turks of Transoxania. The Umayyads had power over these countries. The ten horns mean the names of the Umayyad rulers—that is, without repetition, there were ten names of rulers, meaning ten names of commanders and chiefs—the first is Abú Súfyán and the last Marván—but several of them bear the same name. So there are two Muáviyá, three Yazíd, two Valíd, and two Marván; but if the names were counted without repetition there would be ten. The Umayyads, of whom the first was Abú Súfyán, Amír of Mecca and chief of the dynasty of the Umayyads, and the last was Marván, destroyed the third part of the holy and saintly people of the lineage of Muḥammad who were like the stars of heaven.
Verse 4. “And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour the child as soon as it was born.” 3 As we have before explained, this woman is the Law of God. The dragon was standing near the woman to devour her child, and this child was the promised Manifestation, the offspring of the Law of Muḥammad. The Umayyads were always waiting to get possession of the Promised One, Who was to come from the line of Muḥammad, to destroy and annihilate Him; for they much feared the appearance of the promised Manifestation, and they sought to kill any of Muḥammad’s descendants who might be highly esteemed.


Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

How about:
So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 17:3

I'm wanting to emphasise how revelation tends to weave back and forth, working its way to its apocalyptic climax. It's not a different 10 horned, seven headed beast, but the same one reappearing again and again.

How about Daniel 7:7-8 ?
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Recognise the beast with those 10 horns? That boastful horn plucking out the other three? If we consider the other three beasts in Daniel 7 we start to make connections to help us understand the next verse....Revelation 13:2

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The terms leopard, bear, and lion refer to the prophecy in Daniel, Chapter 7. In that prophecy the leopard represents the Empire of Alexander the great; the bear represents the Empire of Media-Persia; the lion represents the Empire of Babylonia.

The Ummayad dynasty ruled an Empire reminiscent of the Empire of Alexander (the leopard) in its extent and prosperity, the strength (feet) of the beast was situated in Media-Persia (the bear), but it had its throne (mouth) within the confines of ancient Babylonia (the lion).

Back to revelation 13:1 the beast has on his heads the name of blasphemy: The Caliph!

"The Caliph" means literally "The Successor" and refers to the successorship to Muhammad. The title of Caliph was blasphemously usurped by the Umayyads. The office combined both the temporal and "spiritual" authority in early Islam.

That's probably enough of the book of revelation for one night.
Skeptical? Gee, I wonder why? "I'm wanting to emphasise how revelation tends to weave back and forth"?
We have a red dragon 12:3. It has the 7 heads and 10 horns and 7 diadems on its head. 13:1 a beast with 10 horns, 7 heads and 10 diadems. And the dragon gives power and authority and his throne to this beast. 13:11 another beast... 2 horns and speaks like a dragon. This last beast is the one whose name or number is 666.

Baha'is say all these beasts are the same? The Ummayads?

17:10 says the 7 heads are kings and the beast is an 8th king, but the 10 horns are also said to be kings. But all wage war against the Lamb. So who do you say the Lamb is again?

Now for the ridiculousness of the 1260 years. 11:2 the Holy City is trampled for 42 months or 1260 years. 11:3 the two witnesses prophecy for 1260 days or 1260 years. 11:9 the two witnesses are killed and lie dead in the street for 31/2 days which becomes 31/2 years, which equals 1260 days, which becomes 1260 years. 12:5 the woman gives birth to who? The Bab? But in 12:6 she flees to the wilderness where she is nourished for 1260 days which becomes 1260 years. In 13:5 the first beast is given authority from the dragon to act and make war for 42 months, which is changed to 1260 years. Then in 13:11 another beast. In 13:18 it says this beast has the number 666. Baha'is make this the year where the Ummayad dynasty starts? But if you start at year 666 and add 1260 how does this still add up to 1844?

All these 1260 years are said to be the time from the beginning of Islam to the start of the Baha'is getting its start in 1844. And all mixed into that mess is the 3 Woes that Baha'is say is Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The first Woe ended in 9:12. The second Woe ended in 11:14. Yet, Baha'is still keep going back to the same story of the Ummayads and the 1260 years well after the end of the second Woe? Way too redundant.

So yes, skeptical is a good word to use. Things should get less complicated from here on out. So what do you got for the next chapters?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Or possibly because five or more members voted for my expulsion, for two or more different reasons. Not every UHJ decision is made in consultation : in some cases a document prepared by the secretariat is circulated to gain at least five signatures from members. In that case, nobody would know what the reasoning was of the five or more members who decided to approve the letter -- not even the UHJ collectively would know that. Even if they regretted that no clear reason was given, there would be nothing they could do about it.

Likewise, if the decision was made in consultation, the reasonings of the individual members could be diverse, although in that case the members at the time would hear what the other members' reasoning was.

This is generally the case, with all UHJ decisions - whatever you may hear about "why" a decision was made must be taken with a grain of salt.
So it sounds like a person's voting rights can be taken away. Then, the next thing would be to take their membership away? But, then what's after that? Does it jump right to being declared a "covenant breaker"?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
1260 Years is written as 1260 days, is also 42 Months, is also 3 1/2 years, is also times Times and Half a Time.

1260 Years all refer to the length of the Muslim Religion from 622 to 1844 of the Gregorian Solar Calendar.

The Muslim Calendar is Luna and Has 1260 years between AD622 and AD1844. AD1844 is AH 1260 and to add in to the mix is also BE1.

Regards Tony
I'm so far behind. I just responded to Adrian's 12777 post back a few pages. In that response, I asked some more questions about this 1260 year thing. I'm done again. See you tomorrow.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1260 how does this still add up to 1844

I'm so far behind. I just responded to Adrian's 12777 post back a few pages. In that response, I asked some more questions about this 1260 year thing. I'm done again. See you tomorrow.

The Year AH1260 is the year AD1844. That is how they add up.

Or (Not using the fractions), if we times the Muslim Calendar date of 1260 by its Luna Years days of 354, we get 446,040.

Now Divide this 446,040 by the Christian Calendar Solar Year days of 365, we come to 1222.

Now the Islam Calendar started in 622, so if we now we add the1222, we again get 1844.

1844 is the Date. The Day and the hour was still yet to be known until the event took place.

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Is that not what has been offered as to what has happened to the meaning of Gods Word......! ;):D

Regards Tony
Morning Tony! Happy Saturday!
It's what has been offered as to what has happened in many a lie, many an invasion, many a wicked offence.
But........ when any group, class, trade, career, profession, religion, faith, points back, or out, and says ,'Look at them! We are not like them!' I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

It's people...........
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Morning Tony! Happy Saturday!
It's what has been offered as to what has happened in many a lie, many an invasion, many a wicked offence.
But........ when any group, class, trade, career, profession, religion, faith, points back, or out, and says ,'Look at them! We are not like them!' I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

It's people...........

Ha ha Good evening on my Saturday to you now 7:15 pm :)

A Baha'i would say look at what binds us, we are all like each other.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Skeptical? Gee, I wonder why? "I'm wanting to emphasise how revelation tends to weave back and forth"?

You want a nice easy story, go watch a movie or read a book.:)

We have a red dragon 12:3. It has the 7 heads and 10 horns and 7 diadems on its head. 13:1 a beast with 10 horns, 7 heads and 10 diadems. And the dragon gives power and authority and his throne to this beast. 13:11 another beast... 2 horns and speaks like a dragon. This last beast is the one whose name or number is 666.

Baha'is say all these beasts are the same? The Ummayads?

I suppose we need to walk before we can run. Who is the blind? Am I blinded by my religion as you suggested in another post or are you blind because you can't you can't see what I see? We're all blinded by the light to some extent.

First up, you need to be convinced that the beast represents an empire. I'm not sure you are.

How familiar are you with prophecy?

How about the 4 beasts in Daniel 7 ? Who do they represent?

So those beasts in revelation. Why not 13 heads and 15 horns? Why do we keep having the same number of heads and horns?

The JWs link the beasts together.

What Is the Seven-Headed Wild Beast of Revelation 13? | Bible Questions

So why can't the Baha'is do it?

What's an alternative explanation?

A wise man once said:
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 3:12

17:10 says the 7 heads are kings and the beast is an 8th king, but the 10 horns are also said to be kings. But all wage war against the Lamb. So who do you say the Lamb is again?

The Lamb is a Messianic title just as 'son of man' and 'son of God.' It is used on multiple occasions (at least 29) throughout Revelation, sometimes in different ways.

Lamb of God - Wikipedia

Now for the ridiculousness of the 1260 years. 11:2 the Holy City is trampled for 42 months or 1260 years. 11:3 the two witnesses prophecy for 1260 days or 1260 years. 11:9 the two witnesses are killed and lie dead in the street for 31/2 days which becomes 31/2 years, which equals 1260 days, which becomes 1260 years. 12:5 the woman gives birth to who? The Bab? But in 12:6 she flees to the wilderness where she is nourished for 1260 days which becomes 1260 years. In 13:5 the first beast is given authority from the dragon to act and make war for 42 months, which is changed to 1260 years. Then in 13:11 another beast. In 13:18 it says this beast has the number 666. Baha'is make this the year where the Ummayad dynasty starts? But if you start at year 666 and add 1260 how does this still add up to 1844?

We calculate from the Hijrah in 622 AD and use lunar years. The Hijrah marks the start of the Islamic Calendar. 1844 on the Gregorian calendar is the same as 1260 on the Islamic Calendar. Any Calendar converter will tell you that.

Hegira. ... The Hegira or Hijrah (Arabic: هِجْرَة‎‎) is the migration or journey of the Islamic prophet Muhammad and his followers from Mecca to Yathrib, later renamed by him to Medina, in the year 622.

Islamic calendar - Wikipedia


All these 1260 years are said to be the time from the beginning of Islam to the start of the Baha'is getting its start in 1844. And all mixed into that mess is the 3 Woes that Baha'is say is Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The first Woe ended in 9:12. The second Woe ended in 11:14. Yet, Baha'is still keep going back to the same story of the Ummayads and the 1260 years well after the end of the second Woe? Way too redundant.

I'm beginning to wonder if you are out of your depth, and would be better studying Daniel. A lot of Daniel concerns events that have already happened and Baha'is and Christians would agree on. It is also important to understand how Christ fulfilled prophecies in the OT to be the Jewish messiah. The book of revelation is the arguably the most difficult book in the bible, and if you are serious about understanding it, may be better off, looking at similar apocalyptic type writings that the Christians have had centuries to unravel.

So yes, skeptical is a good word to use. Things should get less complicated from here on out. So what do you got for the next chapters?
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Good morning:)
I expect that they do......... Up 'til now the med world has groped and blundered its way forward but things are changing rapidaly, I'm told. 40+ years ago my Bahai Wife was afflicted with epileptic seizures in the whole spectrum of severity. She was prescribed with epileptic drugs (Epinutim then Epilim and many others etc) as well as meds for horrific psuedo-seizures many times worse than Freud ever filmed.
I don't know how our daughter and first son survived, but our second son was born with the whole list of disabilities, spina-bifida, hydracephalus, clubbed feet, other severe sicknesses and the NHS told us that to place him on 'feed on demand' was the kindest thing.

Sorry to hear that. It all sounds extremely difficult. Anticonvulsants such as sodium valproate (epilim) all carry a major risk of causing fetal abnormalities, especially in the first trimester. On the other hand your wife had severe epilepsy. It is being caught between a rock and a hard place, and would have been very difficult for the neurologist treating her.

The culture of medicine has changed enormously, and there is much more patient centeredness with an emphasis on having a collaborative relationship where we are providing medical advice to assist our patients make informed decisions about their health. Its the patients life and health. We're just providing professional advice (albeit based on extensive training and experience.)

Two months ago, for the first time in my life and 40+ years later, I discovered that those meds in pregnancy produce those sicknesses, almost as bad as thalidomyde.
My wife died thinking that it was her, no matter how many times I told her that it must surely be something to do with the male's genes she blamed herself. I am so sad that she never knew the truth.
I don't mind that 'they' didn't know about the risks, I'm so sad that they hid the truth from my wife.
It's been a very very strange autumn for me.

Its good to have more understanding about what happened.

In regards to the Baha'i community I'm sure it was a very different Baha'i community to what it is today. It was only in the 60s/70s that we had a significant number of Western Baha'is join the faith. I think many had no real idea of what the Baha'i faith was, and some of course left disillusioned like your friend. The culture in the Baha'i faith is different now but we are really still a very young community considering in many places we have only been established for a few decades.

It'll be easier for meds in the future. I met with an amazing pharmacist, doctor (and artist) who has turned down two chairs at Baliol in order to carry on in the commercial world. In casual conversation he explained that thousands and thousands of diabetics die each year because unspecialised meds don't know enough about those sicknesses. With a group of colleagues they have been preparing an IT pragram for GPs to complete from obs and it then takes and precribes meds, doses, lifestyles, the lot. Previously such initiatives have been failing, killing as many as before, but IT is slamming into the medical world and will protect meds as well as assisting them. That will help the legal aspects as well.

All I can say is that its a tough world in general practice seeing up to 25 patients a day, and anyone can come in with anything. Then again to become a vocationally registered GP requires at least 11 years training.

It's dodgy. I don't know how this law impacts upon smaller groups, but even Private clubs which exclude 'characteristics' are needing to wake up and review their policies.
Even our CofE is being dragged, kicking and screaming, towards equality..... we have female priests and Bishops now.

It would be interesting to know the implications for Baha'i institutions.

I became very acquainted with the mental health act in regards to involuntary assessment and treatment of patients which of course is a huge ethical area in its own right. Under what circumstances should civil liberties be removed if someone is so mentally disordered they present an immediate risk to themselves, others, or can not care for themselves.

I doubt it, but I don't know.... am not specialised in the legislation, but look at the CofE.... :shrug:
It just shows how the majority is beginning to think, which cannot offer a very hopeful future for religions and groups who stay back.

I think its important seekers understand what they are joining. As @Vinayaka highlighted, if someone wants to live a homosexual lifestyle find a religion that is more tolerant of that.

I have every belief now that Bahais believe in the 'Holy Spirit' of God. And the Holy Manifestation of God. And God............ if not together then separate, if it helps their mindsets.

When this thread started, and Baha'is started talking about Hinduism, it quickly became apparent to our resident Hindu on this thread that none of us knew what we were talking about. When you start telling a member of any Faith group what they believe, they quickly detect the irony.

Names: Our prejudices ban us from using various names. One Bahai here cannot put up with the word theocracy because for him it probably means a terrifying religious government that he has intimate knowledge about.
It may be necessary to face the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are the same Divine Entity, there's just prejudice about one of the words.

The Baha'i faith has characteristics of a theocracy and I'm good with that, providing its understood that its an entirely different approach compared to Judaism, Catholicism, and Islam, and we have other aspects of governance incorporated such as democracy.

But we don't have freedom of thought because our past has inserted prejudices into us which make some ideas and words unthinkable.

We all have prejudices and biases and we all need to spent much more time considering our own, and not so much others. Its a little like the log and speck Jesus talked about.

Hope you have a great day.:)
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanks for that:)
Hierarchical religions are by their nature authoritative. The nature of the religions are to "spread god's teachings" so that others will know, come to, convert, and/or learn about god. The nature that god is the creator and not any other Joe Smoe it gives many followers a sense of erge or wanting or needing to tell others about their faith. Sharing is natural in and of itself.

All religions have a hierarchy to some extent. The authority in the Baha'i faith rests in elected institutions but it is the institution that has authority, not the individuals in it that should regard themselves as no better than their fellow community members who are not assembly members.

How about in your form of Buddhism? Any Hierarchy there? I was asking my Japanese mother-in-law about Buddhism and started to hear about the intensely in your face, evangelical SGI Buddhists there. They don't have a good reputation amongst more conservative Japanese.

It comes off as proselytizing or evangelizing when sharing doesn't consider if the other party is interested in what the said person is sharing. If no one asks "do you want to hear Bahai say this or that" wait for an answer and then post, it won't sound like prestylzing.

Fair enough. How did you find out about the Buddhist temple you are now associated with?

That, and it depends on the person too. One person's "god wanted me to teach other's about christ" is another person's "I choose to tell others about christ because what he did for me." The first is evangelizing mindset and the other is testimony.

Really depends on the person. Have to be interested in who you quoting to (in general) in order to know if the other person takes it as proselytizing or just sharing your views.

(Not "You" you as a general pronoun referring to a generalized audience.)

Conversations are two way, not one. :)
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, the Carlita perspective is the Buddhist perspective, so.

The Buddha taught husband and wife via his culture. (The Happy Married Life) Same as traditional American Western culture I was born and raised in. Since The Suttas aren't "sacred scripture" and The Dhamma is to help train the mind to be enlightened rather wondering who gets married to who (no sacramental marriage vows), I don't take the Indian stance on marriage.

Other gender equality views, The Buddha taught both men and women are monastics. Both men and women can be enlightened. The only separation between male and female I can think of in the suttas so far I read is marriage and sexual promiscuity. LGBTQ isn't mentioned in suttas so I'd imagine marriage equality is not against The Dhamma but against The Buddha's cultural norms.

I "speak Catholic" or Christian because no one I know personally knows about Buddhism, the few that heard of it think we worship The Buddha himself-the person and statue-rather than the Bodhi Mind. Probably 90% of people of people I speak with are abrahamic and/or have some belief in god. A little more than that are abrahamic, mostly christian. So, I use a common foundation of language so people understand me.

That, and I have no clue how to speak Bahai so and I don't like presenting my beliefs as facts unless like you others know where I come from as well without needing to be defensive on and off line. .

Edit

Religiously, male and female are equal. Culturally, every buddhist tradition has their view. SGI, for example, is a universalist buddhist sect that promotes gender equality. Other countries not so much so. I'd assume that all The Buddha's views on gender mirrors the place he is from but not related to enlightenment. Enlightenment is genderless when Mahayana Buddhism came around.

That's an excellent attachment thanks. Easy to read and very practical. I found myself in agreement about almost everything written. What are your thoughts about the gender specific roles as outlined:

Knowing the psychology of the man who tends to consider himself superior, the Buddha made a remarkable change and uplifted the status of a woman by a simple suggestion that a husband should honor and respect his wife. A husband should be faithful to his wife, which means that a husband should fulfill and maintain his marital obligations to his wife thus sustaining the confidence in the marital relationship in every sense of the word. The husband, being a bread-winner, would invariably stay away from home, hence he should entrust the domestic or household duties to the wife who should be considered as the keeper and the distributor of the property and the home economic-administrator. The provision of befitting ornaments to the wife should be symbolic of the husband's love, care and attention showered on the wife. This symbolic practice has been carried out from time immemorial in Buddhist communities. Unfortunately it is in danger of dying out because of the influence of modern civilization.

A Happy Married Life: A Buddhist Perspective
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So the Baha'i Faith is the new Abrahamic Faith, like the new kid on the block. We haven't been involved in any wars, and haven't threatened anyone. Is it fair to judge the Baha'i faith on the basis of its Abrahamic predecessors?

No it isn't fair, as it isn't fair to judge an individual because of his grandfather. As I've indicated before, only time will tell. There have been several pacifist sects that have come before you, and they are generally admired by other pacifists.

Certainly there will be decades of built up resentment towards Iranian authorities. Many wars happen this way, because of century old feuds. Difficult, because of human instinctive nature, to forgive. Have the ruling Baha'i' been able to forgive the early covenant breakers?

But yeah, so far, so good.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Maybe it will, maybe not. Time will tell :)


Top 20 Most Baha'i Countries -
Countries with the Highest Proportion of Baha'is in the Population

Country Number
of Baha'is
Percent of
Country's Pop.

Nauru 1,106 9.22%
Tonga 6,582 6.09%
Tuvalu 580 5.86%
Kiribati 4,32 4.70%
Tokelau Islands 65 4.33%
Cocos Islands 27 3.72%
Bolivia 269,246 3.25%
Falkland Islands 67 2.98%
Vanuatu 5,418 2.78%
Belize 6,941 2.73%
Samoa 4,178 2.37%
Guyana 14,584 2.09%
United Arab Emirates 55,214 1.95%
Sao Tome and Principe 3,011 1.88%
Mauritius 21,848 1.84%
Zambia 162,443 1.70%
Dominica 1,225 1.61%
Micronesia 1,909 1.61%
Niue Island 29 1.53%
Marshall Islands 1,023 1.50%

Adherents.com: Largest Baha'i Communities
Clearly this list is only there due to the early pioneers, encouraged by Effendi. {"But oh no, we don't proselytize.") There is no such list for Hindus, because we actually don't proselytize.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
All delegates for the annual National Convention are provided with an annual report that includes statistics of attendance at assembly meetings as well as a report on general community activities. This is where we elect our National Assembly and usually most National Assembly members are present. If someone isn't up to the job, there is a reasonable likelihood they won't get elected. Usually there will be the change of one or two assembly members, though sometimes none. That's a reasonable turnover given its an annual election. Often the delegates voting (there are 60 in New Zealand) are our most capable people in our communities and often have a good knowledge of National as well as local activities. There is usually a period of at least one day or so, for the delegates to get to know each other, before voting begins. All Baha'is in good standing throughout New Zealand are eligible to be voted for, but it is only the delegates (that have been elected at their annual local convention) that can vote. The guidance for voting includes considering those that best combine the qualities of self-less devotion, a well-trained mind, mature experience, recognised ability, and unquestioned loyalty. Shoghi Effendi has also said we should only elect sincere, capable, and active souls.

But what are the turnover stats? You obviously would know.
 
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