How are these Great Beings explained?

oldbadger · Oct 26, 2017

adrian009 said:
Interesting story.

Of course a gay Baha'i can hold any administrative positive than any other Baha'i can. If he is living with his partner that is a different, just as if someone was living in a defacto relationship.

I find it a little strange that someone who was gay was so completely oblivious of basic Baha'i laws ended up becoming a Baha'i, let alone elected onto an assembly.

I met my Bahai wife in 1972.
Nobody, nobody in the Bahai group could have known about the Gay prejudice.
It was not until many years later that the Chairman of another LSA in another county, who clearly had an agenda against Gays (from things he said) confronted that Bahai with that tenet.

oldbadger · Oct 26, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Yes, they totally believe in the Bible... except where it says things that can't be true. Then, those things are "symbolic". I keep saying that the gospel writers were reporting events, things they believed really happened. And I keep asking if Jesus didn't come back to life, and the writers knew this, but said he did, but meant it only symbolically, why did they write it as if if really happened. And if you can follow all that and not get confused you're doing better than me. I just wrote it and can't follow it. Maybe that's the Baha'i strategy... to twist and turn things so much that people give up questioning them.

Those words!
Symbolic
Spiritual
and many more.........

Religious gobbledegook...............

I would like to find out what the Sikh @chinu thinks about 'spiritual', because he is one who could answer, I think. I wonder how he's getting on.

Dawnofhope · Oct 26, 2017

oldbadger said:
I met my Bahai wife in 1972.
Nobody, nobody in the Bahai group could have known about the Gay prejudice.
It was not until many years later that the Chairman of another LSA in another county, who clearly had an agenda against Gays (from things he said) confronted that Bahai with that tenet.

Do you believe that a Baha'i can be expelled from the community simply for being gay, even if he's not in a relationship?

oldbadger · Oct 26, 2017

CG Didymus said:
What's sad, that is what we are being told. Whether it's Baha'is or Born-again Christians, they both tell people they are blind and lost. Which is a nicer way to say what they really mean... that people are miserably lost and stupid for not seeing the light. But each of them is blinded by looking at the light of their own religion.

Ha ha! A member on this thread has suggested that I am suddenly changeable in character!
I was required to give evidence at Magistrates and Crown Courts about 3-4 times each month. Barristers would contend with each other in heated prosecution and defence. And afterwards you could see them down the pub buying each other drinks. Changeable!

oldbadger · Oct 26, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Apparently it does, Tony.

Another double-think? Gays are OK but they cannot love each other, marry, civil partnership...... I wonder about Lesbians.......... never seen a mention of them.

oldbadger · Oct 26, 2017

Sen McGlinn said:
No, it is not correct. Bahais will fight in the armed forces if required to do so, since obedience to government is itself a Bahai principle. In practice, Bahais have more often served in non-combatant roles. You might recall Mai Pederson, a Bahai US military linguist and intelligence operative, who was a friend of the late David Kelly. But in Iran, during the Iran-Iraq war, Bahais served on both sides of the battle, because there was no recognition of conscience, let alone of conscientious objection, in Iran and Iraq.

A Bahai force led by the UHJ is a contradiction in terms: it would no be Bahai. The Bahai teaching say :

The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath ever regarded, and will continue to regard, the hearts of men as His own, His exclusive possession. All else, whether pertaining to land or sea, whether riches or glory, He hath bequeathed unto the Kings and rulers of the earth. ... What mankind needeth in this day is obedience unto them that are in authority, and a faithful adherence to the cord of wisdom. The instruments which are essential to the immediate protection, the security and assurance of the human race have been entrusted to the hands, and lie in the grasp, of the governors of human society. This is the wish of God and His decree..

( Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 206)

Sen.......... thankyou for your clarity.
You write clearly.
Thankyou for quoting directly from Bahauallah's own writings. I just like to read Bahauallah, is all.

QUESTIONS:-
Do Bahais believe in the Holy Ghost?
Would a Bahai Police Force (in a Bahai World) be unarmed?

oldbadger · Oct 26, 2017

adrian009 said:
Its all this being a member of a brainwashing cult. I just can't think for myself anymore.

Your point about thinking for oneself.............
I cannot reply to your point personally, but I do wonder whether Bahais can think for themselves. They, mostly, just parrot whichever paragraphs suit their point, it seems to me.
You couldn't answer that post of mine straight, could you?

oldbadger · Oct 26, 2017

adrian009 said:
Do you believe that a Baha'i can be expelled from the community simply for being gay, even if he's not in a relationship?

Please, let's agree that Bahai in no way supports many of the Protected Characteristics of European and UK Equality Law.

When you chuck a person out of an LSA for being Gay or in a Gay Partnership, do you really think that they would remain?

QUESTION: Do Bahais believe in the Holy Ghost?

oldbadger · Oct 26, 2017

@adrian009 , I don't mind you marking my honest questions and unfacetious posts as funny. It brings joy to my heart to know that I have cheered you up.

But, on the side, you might benefit from seeking advice from the bosses about the use of the 'funny button'.

Dawnofhope · Oct 26, 2017

oldbadger said:
Please, let's agree that Bahai in no way supports many of the Protected Characteristics of European and UK Equality Law.

I live across the other side of the globe, so am unfamiliar with European or UK law.

oldbadger said:
When you chuck a person out of an LSA for being Gay or in a Gay Partnership, do you really think that they would remain?

Being gay, and being in a gay partnership are two entirely different scenarios. If someone was living with their gay partner and wished to continue to do so, I agree that their position on a Baha'i Assembly would be untenable.

oldbadger said:
QUESTION: Do Bahais believe in the Holy Ghost?

The phrase Holy Ghost or Spirit seems to have different meanings in the Bible.

Who or What is the Holy Spirit?

Baha'is are strictly Monotheistic and unlike the Christians don't believe in a triune God, which the Holy Spirit forms a part.

Abdu'l-Baha gives an explanation of the Holy Spirit in Paris talks.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 57-59

oldbadger said:
@adrian009 , I don't mind you marking my honest questions and unfacetious posts as funny. It brings joy to my heart to know that I have cheered you up.

But, on the side, you might benefit from seeking advice from the bosses about the use of the 'funny button'.

I'm a bad Baha'i, true. Brainwashed and member of a cult as you suggest...well

TransmutingSoul · Oct 27, 2017

oldbadger said:
Question:- Did he mention the Baptist?

Here are a couple of quotes for your collection on Baha'u'llah;

"...For none knoweth the time of the Revelation except God. Whenever it appeareth, all must acknowledge the Point of Truth, and render thanks unto God." They that have turned aside from Me have spoken even as the followers of John (the Baptist) spoke. For they, too, protested against Him Who was the Spirit (Jesus) saying: "The dispensation of John hath not yet ended; wherefore hast thou come?" Now, too, they that have repudiated Us, though they have never known Us and have been at all times ignorant of the fundamentals of this Cause, knowing not from Whom it proceeded or what it signifieth, have spoken that which hath made all created things to sigh and lament. By My life! The mute can never confront the One Who incarnateth in Himself the kingdom of utterance. Fear God, O people, and peruse, then, that which hath been sent down with truth in the eighth Chapter of the sixth Vahid of the Bayan, and be not of such as have turned aside." Baha'u'llah : Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

"...In another connection He, likewise, saith: "Were He to appear this very moment, I would be the first to adore Him, and the first to bow down before Him." Be fair, O people! The purpose of the Most Exalted One (the Báb) was to insure that the proximity of the Revelation should not withhold men from the Divine and everlasting Law, even as the companions of John (the Baptist) were prevented from acknowledging Him Who is the Spirit (Jesus). Time and again He hath said: "Suffer not the Bayan and all that hath been revealed therein to withhold you from that Essence of Being and Lord of the visible and invisible." Should any one, considering this binding injunction, cling unto the Bayan, such a one hath, verily, passed out of the shadow of the blessed and exalted Tree. Be fair, O people, and be not of the heedless." Baha'u'llah : Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

"...These Magi said: "Where is He that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen His star in the east and are come to worship Him!" When they had searched, they found out that in Bethlehem, in the land of Judea, the Child had been born. This was the sign that was manifested in the visible heaven. As to the sign in the invisible heaven -- the heaven of divine knowledge and understanding -- it was Yahya, son of Zachariah, who gave unto the people the tidings of the Manifestation of Jesus. Even as He hath revealed: "God announceth Yahya to thee, who shall bear witness unto the Word from God, and a great one and chaste."By the term "Word" is meant Jesus, Whose coming Yahya foretold. Moreover, in the heavenly Scriptures it is written: John the Baptist was preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, Repent ye: for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand." By John is meant Yahya." Baha'u'llah : The Kitab-i-Iqan

Abdul'Baha also mentions John the Baptist on many occasions (Elijah always comes first).

Regards Tony

oldbadger · Oct 27, 2017

adrian009 said:
I live across the other side of the globe, so am unfamiliar with European or UK law.

Already posted, but here they are again:-
However, the headings of age, disability, gender reassignment, race, religion or belief, sex, sexual orientation, marriage and civil partnership, and pregnancy and maternity are now to be known as 'protected characteristics'.

Being gay, and being in a gay partnership are two entirely different scenarios. If someone was living with their gay partner and wished to continue to do so, I agree that their position on a Baha'i Assembly would be untenable.

Dreadful. The denial of happiness for many. Not good.

The phrase Holy Ghost or Spirit seems to have different meanings in the Bible.
Baha'is are strictly Monotheistic and unlike the Christians don't believe in a triune God, which the Holy Spirit forms a part.

I have not checked what Bahauallah wrote, which could differ from Abdul Baha's definition but it does look as if Bahai does have a Holy Ghost, or Spirit:
So we can say there must be a Mediator between God and Man, and this is none other than the Holy Spirit, which brings the created earth into relation with the ‘Unthinkable One’, the Divine Reality.
The Holy Spirit is the Light from the Sun of Truth bringing, by its infinite power, life and illumination to all mankind, flooding all souls with Divine Radiance, conveying the blessings of God’s Mercy to the whole 59world. The earth, without the medium of the warmth and light of the rays of the sun, could receive no benefits from the sun.

According to Abdul Baha Bahais do believe in the Holy Ghost, clear as day. That's only one step away from The Christian Trinity.
I asked because nobody has as yet explained to me what 'Spirit' is in Bahai, and now, here it is. And now I understand what Bahais mean when they describe a L or NSA assembly as being 'in spiritual harmony', which seems to me as if Bahais believe that the Holy Ghost or Spirit descends to pass the Divine Guidance.

Either that, or maybe you can explain your 'spirits' better?

I'm a bad Baha'i, true. Brainwashed and member of a cult as you suggest...well

---------------------------------------------------------------.

TransmutingSoul · Oct 27, 2017

oldbadger said:
QUESTION:- Do Bahais believe in the Holy Ghost?

The Holy Spirit is the Essence of all the Great Beings. This one quote will do;

"The Power of the Holy Spirit shineth radiantly in the realities of the Messengers of God, and strengtheneth their will in such wise as to influence a great nation for thousands of years and to regenerate the human soul and revive mankind. Consider how great is this power! It is an extraordinary Power, an all-sufficient proof of the truth of the mission of the Prophets of God, and a conclusive evidence of the power of Divine Inspiration." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 347)

Regards Tony

oldbadger · Oct 27, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Here are a couple of quotes for your collection on Baha'u'llah;

"...For none knoweth the time of the Revelation except God. Whenever it appeareth, all must acknowledge the Point of Truth, and render thanks unto God." They that have turned aside from Me have spoken even as the followers of John (the Baptist) spoke. For they, too, protested against Him Who was the Spirit (Jesus) saying: "The dispensation of John hath not yet ended; wherefore hast thou come?" Now, too, they that have repudiated Us, though they have never known Us and have been at all times ignorant of the fundamentals of this Cause, knowing not from Whom it proceeded or what it signifieth, have spoken that which hath made all created things to sigh and lament. By My life! The mute can never confront the One Who incarnateth in Himself the kingdom of utterance. Fear God, O people, and peruse, then, that which hath been sent down with truth in the eighth Chapter of the sixth Vahid of the Bayan, and be not of such as have turned aside." Baha'u'llah : Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

"...In another connection He, likewise, saith: "Were He to appear this very moment, I would be the first to adore Him, and the first to bow down before Him." Be fair, O people! The purpose of the Most Exalted One (the Báb) was to insure that the proximity of the Revelation should not withhold men from the Divine and everlasting Law, even as the companions of John (the Baptist) were prevented from acknowledging Him Who is the Spirit (Jesus). Time and again He hath said: "Suffer not the Bayan and all that hath been revealed therein to withhold you from that Essence of Being and Lord of the visible and invisible." Should any one, considering this binding injunction, cling unto the Bayan, such a one hath, verily, passed out of the shadow of the blessed and exalted Tree. Be fair, O people, and be not of the heedless." Baha'u'llah : Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

"...These Magi said: "Where is He that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen His star in the east and are come to worship Him!" When they had searched, they found out that in Bethlehem, in the land of Judea, the Child had been born. This was the sign that was manifested in the visible heaven. As to the sign in the invisible heaven -- the heaven of divine knowledge and understanding -- it was Yahya, son of Zachariah, who gave unto the people the tidings of the Manifestation of Jesus. Even as He hath revealed: "God announceth Yahya to thee, who shall bear witness unto the Word from God, and a great one and chaste."By the term "Word" is meant Jesus, Whose coming Yahya foretold. Moreover, in the heavenly Scriptures it is written: John the Baptist was preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, Repent ye: for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand." By John is meant Yahya." Baha'u'llah : The Kitab-i-Iqan

Abdul'Baha also mentions John the Baptist on many occasions (Elijah always comes first).

Regards Tony

Thankyou for that.
I need to take it in.... will reply later.

TransmutingSoul · Oct 27, 2017

oldbadger said:
And now I understand what Bahais mean when they describe a L or NSA assembly as being 'in spiritual harmony', which seems to me as if Bahais believe that the Holy Ghost or Spirit descends to pass the Divine Guidance.

This is not the way I would see it happening, Abdul'Baha tells us of the 5 Levels of Spirit, this being a link to that, it is a short explanation - Degrees of Spirit | What Bahá’ís Believe

At a Meeting where 9 believers are together in unity working towards a common Goal we can call on the 4th Level of Spirit, the Spirit of Faith;

"..In order to become acquainted with spiritual realities, human beings must be assisted by the spirit of faith. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá explains that the “spirit of Faith” is “of the Kingdom”, and that, “the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.”

We do not hear God or give Revelation from God, but with the Spirit of Faith, we can mirror in our lives Gods Purpose from those that the Reveal the Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony

Dawnofhope · Oct 27, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Just a day ago, Adrian was informing me that Baha'i' faith started at Baha'u'llah, and I told him how others figured he controlled time even before he was born. Adrian seemed skeptical, but I think this is proof. Baha'u'llah isn't just another manifestation, but he also created (is the source of) all other manifestations. I wonder how Christians would feel if they were told Christ came from Baha'u'llah, his very existence was due to some guy 1800 years later than him. Rather odd logic, I would say, but there's more of that I'm sure.

I thought I would clear this up. I think there are three things being talked about. First is Baha'u'llah, second there is God who is Eternal and been present for all time, third, there is the spirit of this new age that we are living in has been around even before Baha'u'llah was born. Like other faith adherents we sometimes say Baha'u''lah is God (like with Christ and Krishna) and some refer to the spirit of the age as Baha'u'llah or the Spirit of God that is Eternal as Baha'u'llah. That may be where my fellow Baha'is are coming from, I don't know. I tend to avoid interchanging terms like that in an interfaith discussion as it can cause confusion. People naturally ask how can the spirit of the age be Baha'u'llah or God be Baha'u'llah. Hope that clears things up a little rather than adding to the confusion.

oldbadger · Oct 27, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
This is not the way I would see it happening, Abdul'Baha tells us of the 5 Levels of Spirit, this being a link to that, it is a short explanation - Degrees of Spirit | What Bahá’ís Believe

At a Meeting where 9 believers are together in unity working towards a common Goal we can call on the 4th Level of Spirit, the Spirit of Faith;

"..In order to become acquainted with spiritual realities, human beings must be assisted by the spirit of faith. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá explains that the “spirit of Faith” is “of the Kingdom”, and that, “the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.”

We do not hear God or give Revelation from God, but with the Spirit of Faith, we can mirror in our lives Gods Purpose from those that the Reveal the Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony

Thanks for all of those pastes and links, Tony.

I've only had time to breeze through all but I noted a few points.

The Holy Spirit, as far as those pastes and links go, is a singular entity of the Kingdom of God, a transmitter of knowledge and guidance. It may well transmit various kinds of Divine message, but is constantly and repeatedly a Singular Entity of God. = The Christian Holy Ghost.

The Manifestation of God is of God and the Kingdom of God as per your links, = The Christian Son of God.

And then, of course, there is God, the Christian God.

Now Bahai might not entertain the idea that Bahai is a Trinity, but I'll bet that some Christrians (if they are very interested in Bahai) could well do.

This, in my perception, makes more understandable the Bahai concept of 'spititual' because none has been able to successfully describe it to me before now, not in nearly 5 decades of interest.

But surely, for Bahais to believe in spirits they must also believe in Demons because the two go together, opposite sides of the 'card'. After all, that is what spirits are all about?

This is just chucking thoughts and ideas about, you understand......

Dawnofhope · Oct 27, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Could you explain how it relates to the birth of the Baha'i Faith and how Islam will try and prevent it. Here's what I ask again:
Chapter 11. It has the two witnesses doing their thing for 42 months. Verse 7 says that when they have finished their testimony, the beast kills them and the bodies sit in the street of the city where their Lord was crucified for 31/2 days. Verse 11, after the 3/12 days they come to life and a great earthquake hits that city and kills 7000 people. Verse 14... the second Woe is past.

The birth of the Baha'i Faith is most vividly illustrated within the initial verses of Revelation 12.

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Flag of Iran - Wikipedia

600px-Tricolour_Flag_of_Iran_%281886%29.svg.png

Flags of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

1200px-Flag_of_the_Ottoman_Empire.svg.png

Let's check out the flags of the Persian empire and the Ottoman empires. Note the sun and the moon. This could be interpreted as the Baha'i Faith being born out of the Persian and Ottoman Empires.

The twelve stars are the twelve Imams who were the promoters of the true Islam.

Back to Chapter 11, and Revelation 11:11

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

According to Abdu'l-Baha
Three days and a half, as we before explained, is twelve hundred and sixty years. Those two persons whose bodies were lying spiritless are the teachings and the law that Muḥammad established and ‘Alí promoted, from which, however, the reality had departed and only the form remained. The spirit came again into them means that those foundations and teachings were again established. In other words, the spirituality of the Religion of God had been changed into materiality, and virtues into vices; the love of God had been changed into hatred, enlightenment into darkness, divine qualities into satanic ones, justice into tyranny, mercy into enmity, sincerity into hypocrisy, guidance into error, and purity into sensuality. Then after three days and a half, which by the terminology of the Holy Books is twelve hundred and sixty years, these divine teachings, heavenly virtues, perfections and spiritual bounties were again renewed by the appearance of the Báb and the devotion of Jináb-i-Quddús.
The holy breezes were diffused, the light of truth shone forth, the season of the life-giving spring came, and the morn of guidance dawned. These two lifeless bodies again became living, and these two great ones—one the Founder and the other the promoter—arose and were like two candlesticks, for they illumined the world with the light of truth.

So there we have the birth or coming to life or resurrection of the holy Religion of God...the Baha'i faith through His Holiness the Bab and His most outstanding Follower Quddus.

Quddús - Wikipedia

How did Islam try to prevent it?

In Revelation 12:4-5
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Abdu'l-Baha says:
As we have before explained, this woman is the Law of God. The dragon was standing near the woman to devour her child, and this child was the promised Manifestation, the offspring of the Law of Muḥammad. The Umayyads were always waiting to get possession of the Promised One, Who was to come from the line of Muḥammad, to destroy and annihilate Him; for they much feared the appearance of the promised Manifestation, and they sought to kill any of Muḥammad’s descendants who might be highly esteemed.
Verse 5. “And she brought forth a man child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.” This great son is the promised Manifestation Who was born of the Law of God and reared in the bosom of the divine teachings. The iron rod is a symbol of power and might—it is not a sword—and means that with divine power and might He will shepherd all the nations of the earth. This son is the Báb.

Back to Revelation 11:12-14
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Adbu'l-Baha explains:
“And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven,” meaning that from the invisible heaven they heard the voice of God, saying: You have performed all that was proper and fitting in delivering the teachings and glad tidings; you have given My message to the people and raised the call of God, and have accomplished your duty. Now, like Christ, you must sacrifice your life for the Well-Beloved, and be martyrs. And that Sun of Reality, and that Moon of Guidance, both, like Christ, set on the horizon of the greatest martyrdom and ascended to the Kingdom of God.

“And their enemies beheld them,” meaning that many of their enemies, after witnessing their martyrdom, realized the sublimity of their station and the exaltation of their virtue, and testified to their greatness and perfection.

“And the same hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand.”

This earthquake occurred in Shíráz after the martyrdom of the Báb. The city was in a turmoil, and many people were destroyed. Great agitation also took place through diseases, cholera, dearth, scarcity, famine and afflictions, the like of which had never been known.

“And the remnant was affrighted and gave glory to the God of heaven.”

When the earthquake took place in Fárs, all the remnant lamented and cried day and night, and were occupied in glorifying and praying to God. They were so troubled and affrighted that they had no sleep nor rest at night.

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muḥammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.

CG Didymus said:
I never said anything about an old or new Jerusalem.

CG Didymus said:
The verse says where "their" Lord was crucified. Which is where to Baha'is?

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Revelation 11:8

Adbu'l-Baha explains:
“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” “Their bodies” means the Religion of God, and “the street” means in public view. The meaning of “Sodom and Egypt,” the place “where also our Lord was crucified,” is this region of Syria, and especially Jerusalem, where the Umayyads then had their dominions; and it was here that the Religion of God and the divine teachings first disappeared, and a body without spirit remained. “Their bodies” represents the Religion of God, which remained like a dead body without spirit.

CG Didymus said:
If the two witnesses are Muhammad and Ali, why would their Lord be some who was crucified?

Crucifixion symbolised death of the Manifestation of God or the Christ.

CG Didymus said:
Which I would think would be Jesus.

Why would a prophetic book written 70 years after Chrsits crucifixion prophecise Christ being crucified?

CG Didymus said:
But why would Jesus and not God be the "Lord" to Muhammad?

? I'm not sure what you mean.

CG Didymus said:
A Baha'i answer about an earthquake mentions some earthquake in a city in Persia/Iran. How does that tie in with the two witnesses?

It's been explained above.

CG Didymus said:
And why a specific number, 7000 killed, in Revelation if it didn't have some specific meaning? Thanks.

As above again. in addition the number seven symbolises perfection or completeness and 1,000 a great multitude.

TransmutingSoul · Oct 27, 2017

oldbadger said:
Thanks for all of those pastes and links, Tony.

I've only had time to breeze through all but I noted a few points.

The Holy Spirit, as far as those pastes and links go, is a singular entity of the Kingdom of God, a transmitter of knowledge and guidance. It may well transmit various kinds of Divine message, but is constantly and repeatedly a Singular Entity of God. = The Christian Holy Ghost.

The Manifestation of God is of God and the Kingdom of God as per your links, = The Christian Son of God.

And then, of course, there is God, the Christian God.

Now Bahai might not entertain the idea that Bahai is a Trinity, but I'll bet that some Christrians (if they are very interested in Bahai) could well do.

This, in my perception, makes more understandable the Bahai concept of 'spititual' because none has been able to successfully describe it to me before now, not in nearly 5 decades of interest.

But surely, for Bahais to believe in spirits they must also believe in Demons because the two go together, opposite sides of the 'card'. After all, that is what spirits are all about?

This is just chucking thoughts and ideas about, you understand......

I like chucking around thoughts as this to me what spiritually is all about. It is finding what we really are and where that life comes from.

You are correct about the 3 Aspects, there are many explanations of this in the Baha'i Writings. Even so over the years it has taken much thought to consider how they tie together as there are many other writings that take this connection to a whole differnt level.

From my understanding we Have God, The Holy Spirit and the Perfect Mirror who is the Messenger. These chosen men are in each age born of the Holy Spirit, they are not born of the Human Spirit. The Message of Christ was the first to explain this connection.

So in the past the people of Christianity tied these 3 aspects together in a Doctrine that made Jesus God, Muhammad came and said do not call Jesus God, He was a Mesenger. Baha'u'llah has now explained how they can be God and Not God and has explained this in great detail.

The Sun as God, The Rays as the Holy Spirit and the Perfect Mirror as the Messenger shows how this can be so. If we look at the Mirror we see the Sun, God, but God has not decended into the mirror, the rays or Attributes of God shine from the mirror.

The mission of these Messengers is to bring about a new race of men that with the spirit of Faith polish their Human mirror of all dirt and dross, so we in turn can become sources of light to others.

This brings us to the demon or evil aspect of spirituality, which is found in comparing Light and Darkness. Light being God the source of all Good and Darkness lack of that light. This is in us all and it is found through our free will.

Polish our mirror and free God Within to shine unconstrained, or leave some or all dirt and dross on the mirror of our hearts so God can not shine through. We become what in the Holy Books in many ways have record as evil influence.

Our true self is our soul, it is Spirit and connected to this body through mind. We can use mind to grow our spiritual limbs of all the virtues, or we use mind to think this world has all we need.

I hope that is not to unclear. Regards Tony

Vinayaka · Oct 27, 2017

adrian009 said:
Hindus think they have the greatest religion too.

Its only human nature after all to imagine our religion is better than others.

Of course everyone thinks their own religion is best for them. The difference, though, lies in what degree people think their religion is the best for everyone else.

How are these Great Beings explained?

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