How are these Great Beings explained?

adrian009 said:

To understand the Baha'i POV we need to look at range of Baha'i writings and not just one.

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There it is, right there, the cherry-pick or redirection away from what Bahauallah wrote.
In a Bahai World many aspects of Equality like those that we have begun to enjoy in the UK would be diluted or destroyed, and popular opinion (prejudice) would be aimed at those couples who would dare to reverse gender roles.

We will see later in this post just how many 'protected characteristics' would be shaken by words that would lead to bigotry in certain cases.

It needs to be emphasised that each couple with children makes decisions about how best to approach the balance of care of children and meeting the families financial needs.

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And this is the veil to hide what could becopme the law.

Let us see what is meant by true Equality here in the UK, and paralleled throughouit the entire European block:-
Equality Act 2010:
...............the headings of age, disability, gender reassignment, race, religion or belief, sex, sexual orientation, marriage and civil partnership, and pregnancy and maternity are now to be known as 'protected characteristics'.

From the above list of Freedoms, two are not covered, and five are frownred upon by the Bahai tenets. Whatever else we do, we are not going back to the oppressive stigmas and dogmas that would impact on the protected characteristics.

oldbadger said:

There it is, right there, the cherry-pick or redirection away from what Bahauallah wrote.
In a Bahai World many aspects of Equality like those that we have begun to enjoy in the UK would be diluted or destroyed, and popular opinion (prejudice) would be aimed at those couples who would dare to reverse gender roles.

We will see later in this post just how many 'protected characteristics' would be shaken by words that would lead to bigotry in certain cases.


And this is the veil to hide what could becopme the law.

Let us see what is meant by true Equality here in the UK, and paralleled throughouit the entire European block:-
Equality Act 2010:
...............the headings of age, disability, gender reassignment, race, religion or belief, sex, sexual orientation, marriage and civil partnership, and pregnancy and maternity are now to be known as 'protected characteristics'.

From the above list of Freedoms, two are not covered, and five are frownred upon by the Bahai tenets. Whatever else we do, we are not going back to the oppressive stigmas and dogmas that would impact on the protected characteristics.

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The entire idea of equality is a laugher when you have the 'us versus them' mentality of certain religions. The fact that such a deal is made about being a Baha'i' versus 'not a Baha'i' ' makes any talk of equality a farce.

Vinayaka said:

True for Canada too. My daughter is an electrician, as a close to home example of changing but not totally acceptable gender roles.

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We're getting there, slowly, but we will arrive.

Where I live there are several protected characteristics which are supported by law and the Bahai tenets either do not cover or do not support these.
That's it............. In my county Bahai has dwindled away over the years, and where once LSAs sat, now there might only be lone Bahai households. Is this list the reason why?
age protection of employment etc not covered.
disability protection of employment/movement not covered.
gender reassignment frowned upon
race covered
religion or belief disbarred from various rights.
sex disbarred from various rights
sexual orientation disbarred.
marriage and civil partnership banned
pregnancy and maternity benefits for males disbarred.

We are not going back.

Regressive, not progressive. There's good reason to believe it will disappear entirely in a couple of generations.

InvestigateTruth said:

In it have We decreed the destinies of all the dwellers of the earth and the denizens of heaven, and written down the knowledge of all things from first to last. Nothing whatsoever can escape or frustrate Him, whether created in the past or to be created in the future, could ye but perceive it."
......................

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Yes. Predestination.
I never noticed that ever before.
A kind of Calvinism in Bahai.

That has to be the worst news for Bahai on this 12000+ post thread.

Vinayaka said:

Regressive, not progressive. There's good reason to believe it will disappear entirely in a couple of generations.

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Do you think so?
I think Bahai will be about for all time now, just as there are still Druids in Britain and all manner of other religions. But the fragmentation could continue to dilute the faith, just as the thousands of Creeds have split up Christianity.

There is a tiny tiny chapel on the old city wall in Canterbury, England in the South Sou'West radius which might show if the wall is enlarged digitally. Damme but I can't remember the name, but it belongs to a millenia old order ........ my point being that religions of 7 million never die.

oldbadger said:

Do you think so?
I think Bahai will be about for all time now, just as there are still Druids in Britain and all manner of other religions. But the fragmentation could continue to dilute the faith, just as the thousands of Creeds have split up Christianity.

There is a tiny tiny chapel on the old city wall in Canterbury, England in the South Sou'West radius which might show if the wall is enlarged digitally. Damme but I can't remember the name, but it belongs to a millenia old order ........ my point being that religions of 7 million never die.

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You're probably right. Not that we'll ever know.

Vinayaka said:

You're probably right. Not that we'll ever know.

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That strange tiny chapel is the ZOAR chapel on Canterbury Wall in the SOUTH EAST quadrant.
If enlarged it is named.

The Spiritual chapel that I went to last week has been there for generations, only supported by a very small congregation, but it just goes on and on. I went there in 1967 with my granny after grandad died, and in 1991 after my wife died.

I don't mind there being a whole mass of various cultures, religions and ways around where I live, it adds to our society. And as you know, I'll always offer hospital;ity to any who call.

My kids were friends with Druze children. I'd never heard of it until then, so yes, there are lots of small religions around. Still, some also disappear.

https://listverse.com/2013/10/04/10-forgotten-ancient-religions/

CG Didymus said:

Yes, exactly. So how were the religions a progression? How did one bring "social" laws for that period of time and the next religion bring them for a new period of time? The religions to me are very wrapped up with the culture of the people where they began.

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I agree religions are very wrapped up in culture.

Christianity was a progression on Judaism. Islam was a progression on the paganism of Arabia. Buddhism was arguably a progression of Hinduism. The Baha'i Faith has been a progression on Islam and Christianity.

However it is meaningless to say that Judaism was a progression on Hinduism as they were religions for two very peoples geographically separated who had little to do with each other.

CG Didymus said:

"What was taught in the gospels and in the rest of the NT? Baha'is say they have the true meaning of it from Baha'u'llah. What is the true meaning?" So let me see how I can narrow this down for you. We all have a general idea of what the Christian perspective is. So forget that.

But what is the real, genuine meaning of the gospels? If Baha'is are correct, Christians don't have it. So that's what you can answer. What is the true meaning of the NT... in general terms first. We'll get into specifics later, if necessary.

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Baha'is and Christians believe in the same gospels.

Here's the common ground I believe Christians and Baha'is have in common:

We believe in an Omnipotent, All-Powerful God.
God has created the universe and all that exists
God has qualities of Love and Justice
God is concerned for His creation
Man is a special part of His creation and we have been created in His image
God out of concern for His creation and humanity has guided us through Great Teachers and/or prophets
One of those Great/Teachers or Prophets (Jesus) is exalted above all humans
God expects us to make a great effort to live in accordance with His teachings and to have Faith in Jesus
The OT prophets have provided God's guidance to the Jewish peoples
The Bible has a record of Jesus, the apostles, and the OT prophets
Jesus, the apostles, and the OT prophets we guided by God's unerring spirit
The Bible should be considered authentic and authoritative
We should love God with all our being and love our neighbours and enemies as Jesus taught
We should forgive others
We should be good as God is good
We believe that we have a soul and that there is an afterlife
We believe that evil is a real problem
We believe that Christ promised He would return and spoke of the signs that would accompany His Return.
The Returned Christ will bring in a new age or era in human history.
Jesus is the 'Son of God'
'Salvation' is intimately associated with Christ.
Jesus was crucified
His sacrifice enabled our salvation
The resurrection is a concept/reality of profound significance and importance

A Christian who knows her bible extremely well who I recently had an extended interfaith discussion identified the following differences in our theologies:

We differ in:

• the divinity of Jesus
• the work of Jesus accomplished on the cross: atonement
• the forgiveness of sin through Jesus
• the sin nature of mankind
• the resurrection
• the triune nature of the Godhead
• Redemption, propitiation, justification, sanctification, adoption, reconciliation
• Lucifer
• the miracles of Jesus
• the return of Jesus: when, its purpose and what it will accomplish
• the 'age to come'
• Sheol
• the OT prophets

How's that for starting point?

adrian009 said:

However it is meaningless to say that Judaism was a progression on Hinduism as they were religions for two very peoples geographically separated who had little to do with each other.

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And yet that seems to be the official Baha'i' stance. If it is, it's also admirable and encouraging to see someone actually disagreeing with it.

CG Didymus said:

So how far away from God are the horribly evil people in the next world? Does that world contain all the people that died and left this world? Or, are nicer people located in a better place?

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There are many references in the Baha'i Writings in regards to the condition of the soul in the next world, and how we should prepare ourselves. God is merciful and can forgive sins even at the hour of death, and that we can pray for those who have died so they can advance in the next world.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 241-243

Life after death

CG Didymus said:

No, I don't think all Baha'is agree with you. Some have said the miracles are symbolic also. Like to be "spiritually" blind and Jesus healed them. Which doesn't make sense because then you have "spiritual" crippled, "spiritual" lepers, along with blind people? But the worst is the dead. Sure, "spiritually" dead sounds good, but it don't work. Lazarus was a friend and believer and was dead several days. One Baha'i tried to make the old "days" equals "years" thing to explain it.... dead 3 days which is really years... Jesus preached for 3 years, so Lazarus was spiritually dead for those 3 years and finally "came" to life and believed. No, I don't think that works in Lazarus' case.

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If there is any doubt, Baha'is have the writings to look to.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 100-102

CG Didymus said:

So now what about Jesus? Can he appear and disappear? Why not? I don't know. If he can then who knows. He appears with a flesh and bone body and vanishes again. He floats up and disappears. Who knows? But that's what the writers of the NT say and Baha'is say they only meant it in a symbolic sense. Who knows. I don't, but Baha'is say they do. But, so far, I don't believe it.

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I do not believe He literally appeared and reappeared as recorded in the gospels. I think the gospel writers are communicating something of a more profound, spiritual dimension in relation to Christ rather than providing a literal historic account. It is interesting that some of his closest associates struggled to recognise Him at first.

CG Didymus said:

What does Paul's vision have to do with him saying if Jesus hasn't risen from the dead statement?

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Because if Paul's vision was of the resurrected Jesus then we need to understand the resurrection differently.

CG Didymus said:

You tell me how a symbolic resurrection makes sense with it. I know you can, but I don't know if I'll believe it. And another problem is, since it is not an "official" "infallible" Baha'i saying it, what does it really mean?

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There is clear use in the NT of the body of Christ representing either His teachings and/or the community of His Faithful believers. In the gospels the symbolism is with bread and wine. Saint Paul frequently refers to the body of Christ in reference to the Christian community.

The risen body of Christ is the Church:
Roman 12:5 'one body in Christ'
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 'baptised into one body'
1 Corinthians 12:25 'no schism in the body'
1 Corinthians 12:27 'you are the body of Christ'
Colossians 1:18 'He is the head of the body'
Ephesians 2:5-6 'members of His body, and His flesh'

The spiritual resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:42-4 'it is raised in a spiritual body'
1 Corinthians 15:50 'flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom'

CG Didymus said:

It is only a man made interpretation, isn't it. But, I'd love to hear it anyway. Thanks.

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I'm simply emphasising the scripture that supports how Abdu'l-Baha views the resurrection, and finding alternative explanations for those scripture that could be taken literally.

Vinayaka said:

What?????

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What do you mean "What"? It's simple math. Try it. Take any number you want, give to a Baha'i and it will add up to 1844.

Vinayaka said:

And yet that seems to be the official Baha'i' stance. If it is, it's also admirable and encouraging to see someone actually disagreeing with it.

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So much for the grade school analogy that pretends one religion flows into the next.

Vinayaka said:

And yet that seems to be the official Baha'i' stance. If it is, it's also admirable and encouraging to see someone actually disagreeing with it.

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It is difficult to make sense of religion in light of the known human history. Naturally we like simple explanations. If those explanations don't work we need to look deeper.

There are Baha'is that believe Krishna founded Hinduism and that Abrahamic religions were directly build on Dharmic religions, or Dharmic religions were directly built on Abrahamic religions. That belief is unsupported by history, a study of comparative religion, and the Baha'i writings themselves.

CG Didymus said:

What do you mean "What"? It's simple math. Try it. Take any number you want, give to a Baha'i and it will add up to 1844.

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Lots of stuff happened in 1844. 1844 - Wikipedia

Lots of stuff happens every year.

adrian009 said:

Naturally we like simple explanations.

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I don't. It's always complicated, and it's time people accepted that.

adrian009 said:

There are many references in the Baha'i Writings in regards to the condition of the soul in the next world, and how we should prepare ourselves. God is merciful and can forgive sins even at the hour of death, and that we can pray for those who have died so they can advance in the next world.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 241-243

Life after death



If there is any doubt, Baha'is have the writings to look to.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 100-102



I do not believe He literally appeared and reappeared as recorded in the gospels. I think the gospel writers are communicating something of a more profound, spiritual dimension in relation to Christ rather than providing a literal historic account. It is interesting that some of his closest associates struggled to recognise Him at first.



Because if Paul's vision was of the resurrected Jesus then we need to understand the resurrection differently.



There is clear use in the NT of the body of Christ representing either His teachings and/or the community of His Faithful believers. In the gospels the symbolism is with bread and wine. Saint Paul frequently refers to the body of Christ in reference to the Christian community.

The risen body of Christ is the Church:
Roman 12:5 'one body in Christ'
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 'baptised into one body'
1 Corinthians 12:25 'no schism in the body'
1 Corinthians 12:27 'you are the body of Christ'
Colossians 1:18 'He is the head of the body'
Ephesians 2:5-6 'members of His body, and His flesh'

The spiritual resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:42-4 'it is raised in a spiritual body'
1 Corinthians 15:50 'flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom'



I'm simply emphasising the scripture that supports how Abdu'l-Baha views the resurrection, and finding alternative explanations for those scripture that could be taken literally.

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"whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision,"

You've read how the healings are described in the NT... and the resurrection. If they were only symbolic, then the writers have misled people about Jesus being able to perform healing miracles and that God raised him from the dead. So the only thing Baha'is believe about the NT and the Jewish Bible is the Baha'i interpretation of it.

adrian009 said:

There are many references in the Baha'i Writings in regards to the condition of the soul in the next world, and how we should prepare ourselves. God is merciful and can forgive sins even at the hour of death, and that we can pray for those who have died so they can advance in the next world.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 241-243

Life after death

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So what is it that Baha'is believe. A physical person gets a spirit or soul at conception? Does the egg and the sperm each have 1/2 a soul? A person lives a spiritually "dead" life, where do they go? Since the bulk of people in the world aren't all good or bad, do they all end up at the same place? Can they still choose to do good or evil and either advance or go back a step or two?