How are these Great Beings explained?

adrian009 said:

Life and Death | What Bahá’ís Believe

The Baha'i teachings state that there is no such physical place as heaven or hell, and emphasise the eternal journey of the soul towards perfection. They explain that references to “heaven” and “hell” in the Holy Scriptures of other religions are to be understood symbolically, describing states of nearness to and distance from God in this world and in the realms beyond. Abdu'l-Baha has said that when human beings “become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment…is to be subjected to the world of nature; to be veiled from God; to be brutal and ignorant; to fall into carnal lusts; to be absorbed in animal frailties; to be characterized with dark qualities…these are the greatest punishments and tortures…”

Heaven and Hell | What Bahá’ís Believe



No, only the literal physical resurrection of Jesus.



Paul never saw the resurrected Christ, but had a blinding vision of Him on the road to Damascus.

Acts 9:1-10

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

Yet he likens his experience (where he clearly did not see the resurrected Christ, to those who supposedly did)

1 Corinthians 15:4-8



So Jesus physically ascending into the sky and stratosphere to be with His heavenly Father makes more sense to you? I suppose logic, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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So how far away from God are the horribly evil people in the next world? Does that world contain all the people that died and left this world? Or, are nicer people located in a better place?

No, I don't think all Baha'is agree with you. Some have said the miracles are symbolic also. Like to be "spiritually" blind and Jesus healed them. Which doesn't make sense because then you have "spiritual" crippled, "spiritual" lepers, along with blind people? But the worst is the dead. Sure, "spiritually" dead sounds good, but it don't work. Lazarus was a friend and believer and was dead several days. One Baha'i tried to make the old "days" equals "years" thing to explain it.... dead 3 days which is really years... Jesus preached for 3 years, so Lazarus was spiritually dead for those 3 years and finally "came" to life and believed. No, I don't think that works in Lazarus' case.

So now what about Jesus? Can he appear and disappear? Why not? I don't know. If he can then who knows. He appears with a flesh and bone body and vanishes again. He floats up and disappears. Who knows? But that's what the writers of the NT say and Baha'is say they only meant it in a symbolic sense. Who knows. I don't, but Baha'is say they do. But, so far, I don't believe it.

What does Paul's vision have to do with him saying if Jesus hasn't risen from the dead statement? You tell me how a symbolic resurrection makes sense with it. I know you can, but I don't know if I'll believe it. And another problem is, since it is not an "official" "infallible" Baha'i saying it, what does it really mean? It is only a man made interpretation, isn't it. But, I'd love to hear it anyway. Thanks.

Vinayaka said:

I don't see it in true/false terms. In the dharmic faiths it isn't dual like that. So I wouldn't look at a teaching and say whether or not it was true or false. I'd look at it and ask, 'is it helpful, or not helpful?' Helpful, in this case,would be something that generally leads you towards dharma or God, or not.

In Abrahamism you have all these dual concepts ... good/evil, God/devil, true/false, etc. Dharmic folds don't THINK that way.

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But Baha'is have said they don't believe in evil, yet still talk in those terms. They said something like that evil is like darkness, once you turn a light on, it doesn't exist. Back in the old days, I really liked that Dao symbol of the Yin and Yang kind of being intertwined almost and complementary.

Vinayaka said:

In that one small locality, sure. Surely you're not suggesting the indigenous peoples' women all over the world were wearing veils. In the warmer climates, they wore very little, let alone veils.

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Great point and again... where is the progression?

InvestigateTruth said:

To me the Prophecies you are referring regarding 1000 years and release of Satan have a figurative meaning.
Think of Revelation of God which is a true guidance as 'Light' and the absence of it as 'darkness' or that Satan or darkness which has covered the light of God.
In Scriptures, Religion of God is like 'Light'. When time passes, that light is faded, as is recorded that Jesus said, on that Day, the Sun shall not give light. It is like saying the darkness and evil takes over the truth of Religion of God. People cannot find the truth, because it would be lost. That is why Jesus said the earth will be oppressed. Now, when the Light comes again, the truth is re-established, and Satan or that darkness is gone from the 'Religion' of God. It does not mean that, the Satan or that darkness will be suddenly gone from the world. It means, the Satan will be removed from Religion of God. Meaning, the Religion of God which had fallen in the hands of oppressors, will become renewed. So, in my view, this prophecy is fulfilled. The religion of God, which had fallen in the hand of Islam Khalifs, is no longer in their hands. It is renewed with the new name 'Baha'i'.

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Problem, all the other verses in Revelation dealing with days, weeks, months or years were all made into "prophetic" years. So this 1000 years, to be consistent, has to be changed into days and then back into years.

adrian009 said:

Obviously the Baha'i faith can not take credit for anything before 1844 and it makes sense to see parallel changes in the East and West as being part of a paradigm shift for this age that is most easily discerned by Westerners in European history during the renaissance period.

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Other Baha'i; adherents on here have claimed otherwise, saying Baha'u'llah is eternal, and the cause of much before his time. But I agree with you here.

adrian009 said:

I don't believe humanity was ready to accept a female Manifestation of God during the nineteenth century. Perhaps next tine round.

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What happened to -- No jew, no gentile. Both wings together?... Hindus have female and male goddesses and gods. Maybe in our small corner of the galaxy we worship males. When I listened to the Dhamma talk during the ceremony, just going by that talk, Vietnamese see a lot of importance of a mother figure. Philipines the same way (outside of Catholicism).

I'm not a feminist but some may say I have feminist qualities if I actually had political views worth expressing.

adrian009 said:

The Mormons as you can see from the link about predictions regarding the advent of the second coming of Christ were expecting His return during the nineteenth century. They do not believe Joseph Smith was the return of Christ.

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Joseph Smith isn't a manifestation of a progression of manifestations that one of your peers likened to that of god, one said is god, and, how you defined a manifestation, yeah, a spiritual teacher. But both Bahaullah and Joseph Smith talked to god; so, it makes me wonder why you guys can't here him now when it hasn't been that long ago.

adrian009 said:

Yesterday Baha'is throughout the world celebrated the 200th anniversary of the birth of Bab. It has been two hundred years since the birth of Baha'u'llah so we now have quite a long history going back to the eighteenth century with the establishment of the Shaykhi movement at the end of the 18th century.

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Congratulations! (I know. It sounded so "dull" didn't it. Internet)

Which gets me wondering off another stangent. If Bahai doesn't care for religious dogma in their religions, how do they define dogma that's different or apart than Bahai ceremonies, prayers, beliefs, and history? Why aren't your beliefs considered to be dogma?

adrian009 said:

We need to look at the Hindu guru, study his teachings and life, the effect his teachings had on his followers and the world. Then we can make a comparison to the Baha'i Faith and Baha'u'llah.

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This is exactly my point. We do not. The Dalai Lama was exiled from his own homeland during the Vietnam War. If he would have died, and twenty years from now people started worshiping him as an reincarnation of The Buddha, that would twist some heads, he would be no different than the same person who had an interview with Oprah sharing his feelings about his exilement and beliefs.

I bet Christ wasn't blond hair and blue eyes (making a point) but we don't want to see that part of him. It's like, the closer to us they are in history, the less "holy" they are.

That is one thing I like about Buddhism and the monks and priest I've met, they have a wholesomeness about them that if I were to "worship" someone, it would be someone living with whom I can talk to and mirror his or her progress in spiritual awareness. I mean, I love books and history, but if it weren't for my culture, I'd probably be asking the same questions as Vinayaka.

Even so, though, there is a place for books and a place for practice. To tell you honestly, I didn't see any suttas in any of the temples I went to. We each have prayer books for recitations.

Why is the dead more valued than the living in religions such as yours and abrahamic faiths?

By the way, the video was nice; my questions still stands though

CG Didymus said:

This is what you call dealing with Christianity and world events?

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Yes. You asked about two verses (Revelation 9:15-16). The response has included references to the three main divisions of Christianity as well as one of the most significant historic events and localities.

CG Didymus said:

It's all centered around Islam. So... did 1/3 of mankind get slain? Where did the 391 years come from? How do you arrive at the year 1453?

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According to Pew research Islam is set to become the largest religion in the world and have more adherents than Christianity in the next 50 years or so.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

Old Roman calendar years are meant because the prophecy is addressed to the early Christians. The Roman year was 365 days long with an extra day added every fourth or leap year. There were 97 leap years between 1453 and 1844 AD. But by the Papal Bull of 1582 AD, 10 days were removed from the calendar in 1582 and one more day was removed in 1600. Thus the number of days by the Roman calendar between 30 May 1453 and 23 May 1844 was (391)x(365)+97-10-1-7 or 142,794 days, a span of time almost exactly 391 old Roman years of 365 1/4 days. The "hour" refers to "the time of the end" and the second woe. (Revelations 3:10, 11:13, 14-7) It will commence with the fulfilment of the 391 years.

Mehmet's victory was said to have cut off (metaphorically slain) one-third of Christendom. The fall of Constantinople to Islam is one of the most significant events in both Christian and Islamic history.

CG Didymus said:

When did the Eastern Church and the Roman Church split? When did Martin Luther get the things going that led to the Protestant Reformation?

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How is this relevant?

CG Didymus said:

How do you know how many Muslim cavalry men there had been?

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An educated guess.

CG Didymus said:

Did the Umayyads start in 632 AD and last only 'til the Ottomans in 1463?

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Do you mean1453? The Rushidum Caliphate 632-661 were superseded by the Umayyads 661 - 750 were superseded by the Abassid Caliphate 750 - 1258, succeeded by the Fatimid Caliphate 909 - 1171, Mamluk Sultanate 1250-1517, Saffarid dynasty 861- 1003, the Ottoman Empire 1299 - 1922 and of course the Mongols.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia

Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia

Abbasid Caliphate - Wikipedia

Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

CG Didymus said:

If so, then they didn't begin in the year that matched the number of the beast, 666.

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I think we have discussed the birth of Christ being considered to be about 6 years before 1 AD so that makes 666.

CG Didymus said:

They also have been used with the addition of 1260 years to get to 1844.

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1260 being 42 (30 day) months being 1844 on the Gregorian calendar.

CG Didymus said:

But the big question... Is any of this "official" Baha'i interpretations?

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Abdu'l-Baha interpreted chapters 11 and 12. Anything else is unofficial.

CG Didymus said:

Also, I didn't see or missed the explanation on how Baha'is know Baha'u'llah was a descendant of Jesse? And, how do they know what the genealogy was from Abraham all the way to Baha'u'llah? And, if you think the genealogy from Abraham forward is accurate, what about the genealogy going back? Does it go back to Adam and Eve? Thanks.

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It will be the work of scholars to examine documents that provide definitive evidence of the link between Baha'u'llah and Jesse. Maybe some of my Baha'i colleagues on this thread are aware of such work.

Abdu'l-Baha is very clear about the linkage between Baha'u'llah and Jesse.

This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.

But “they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” These conditions did not prevail in the time of the manifestation of Christ; for until today various and antagonistic nations exist in the world: very few acknowledge the God of Israel, and the greater number are without the knowledge of God. In the same way, universal peace did not come into existence in the time of Christ—that is to say, between the antagonistic and hostile nations there was neither peace nor concord, disputes and disagreements did not cease, and reconciliation and sincerity did not appear. So, even at this day, among the Christian sects and nations themselves, enmity, hatred and the most violent hostility are met with.

But these verses apply word for word to Bahá’u’lláh. Likewise in this marvelous cycle the earth will be transformed, and the world of humanity arrayed in tranquillity and beauty. Disputes, quarrels and murders will be replaced by peace, truth and concord; among the nations, peoples, races and countries, love and amity will appear. Cooperation and union will be established, and finally war will be entirely suppressed. When the laws of the Most Holy Book are enforced, contentions and disputes will find a final sentence of absolute justice before a general tribunal of the nations and kingdoms, and the difficulties that appear will be solved. The five continents of the world will form but one, the numerous nations will become one, the surface of the earth will become one land, and mankind will be a single community. The relations between the countries—the mingling, union and friendship of the peoples and communities—will reach to such a degree that the human race will be like one family and kindred. The light of heavenly love will shine, and the darkness of enmity and hatred will be dispelled from the world. Universal peace will raise its tent in the center of the earth, and the blessed Tree of Life will grow and spread to such an extent that it will overshadow the East and the West. Strong and weak, rich and poor, antagonistic sects and hostile nations—which are like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and kid, the lion and the calf—will act toward each other with the most complete love, friendship, justice and equity. The world will be filled with science, with the knowledge of the reality of the mysteries of beings, and with the knowledge of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66

CG Didymus said:

Problem, all the other verses in Revelation dealing with days, weeks, months or years were all made into "prophetic" years. So this 1000 years, to be consistent, has to be changed into days and then back into years.

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There is no such a rule in the Scriptures, that always future event prophecies are expressed using day to year conversion.
But when the Scriptures point out to the same event, the years must be interpreted to consistently reach the same point of time.
So, for instance, where it says period of Genetiles is 1260 days, which also must be the end of 2300 days period, then the 1000 years also must point to the same year.

Vinayaka said:

But as with the athletes, Baha'u'llah is given no credit for the Boer War, 2 world Wars, the Vietnam War, ISIS, etc. You'd think a manifestation of God could take credit for all things that happen in His universe.

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The list of horrendous atrocities is endless, in every historical direction that one can look. Cambodia was first to spring to my mind.

It's a very human condition that folks who want to see a thing will see it. In the UK our politicians do it all the time. 30+ years ago our locl Council, controlled by one party decided to build a sea harbour where I live. About one month before it was to be officially opened another political party won power here and so, when the official harbour opening took place the party that initiated the work was not invited to the opening, and the new controllers' opening speech exclaimed ,'Look what we have donme for you!'

You can't make this stuff up. But if Bahais take credit for that which they clearly did not gain entire..... not good. The Bahai centre here at Rutland gate, London has not, to my knowledge, ever campaigned publicly for our Equality Act, probably because it never would have supported it. Bahai has done nothing to support the British Equality Act 2010 in total.

adrian009 said:

We accept different roles for men and women in the Baha'i faith too. Women as the primary educators of children for example and men as the head of the household. .....

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That would not be acceptable here in the UK any more.

The above two sentences alone would plunge our growing equality freedoms back more than half a century.

Young men who know they have a special ability to teach juniors and infants would be excluded from their vocations.
Couples who love each other would be handicapped for income where the husband could tend home while the wife pursues a career.
Imagine the social stigmas attached to house husbands.

Anybody who tried to enforce the above conditions in the UK would be breaking the law.

danieldemol said:

Yes, I don't think that detracts from the individuals involved in good acts though, they still chose to act in accordance with courage and the dictates of their conscience, but to me these individuals are like clearer mirrors of God's light.

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OK, so good outcomes are inspired by 'The Spirit of God'.

And so, would you say that all the bad 'things' (say, the Cambodian massacres) that happen occur because God's Divine Light did not focus such inspiritation in those areas?

danieldemol said:

Yes, I don't think that detracts from the individuals involved in good acts though, they still chose to act in accordance with courage and the dictates of their conscience, but to me these individuals are like clearer mirrors of God's light.

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I needed to answer your post twice.

Clearly you believe in some aspects of the Spirit of God.
This week (since last Wednesday at 11.00 am GMT) is one of the most extraordinary weeks in mine and my wife's lives. I haven't landed back to ground yet!

After increasing symptons of lung desease since July 16 until last Wednesday, increasing fluid on right lung, pkeurisy, signs of asbestos contact (plaques), a recent cancer pro-forma investigation which included bonchoscopy cameras, fluid biopsy, ultra-scan, CT scan, many Respiratory examinations, many X-rays and two specialists, we attended the specialist to discover the outcome of all.
A pleasantly non-plussed specialist sent me straight back down to be X-Rayed one more time, and by the time I got back to his office he had the new X-Ray on his screen. There was nothing there. I am clear.
We expected to hear how many Xmasses we might still have together, but at this time I am clear of symptoms.

Bear with me, please.
Because my extremely ill (late) wife was healed of her serious grande mal epilepsy and hysterical psuedo-seizures by Harry Edwards of Leatherhead (google him) in 1974, never having another until after he died circa 77'ish, I decided to visit a healer at a little spiritual chapel last Monday. This young woman, in similar dress as you might see exiting a nightclub on a Friday night, applied her incredibly hot hands to my head, back, shoulders and chest. The shock of the heat will be in my memory for all time. That was two days before we sat to hear the specialist.

I am open minded about the Spirit of God, danieldemol, more open minded than Bahais it seems, because I mentioned this event on this thread last Thursday and received 'nothing' in response to my post about it. Because of this I researched Bahai/healing and guess what? You people do not believe in the Spirit of God in total, do you?

And in a Bahai World the mediums and healers of the little spiritual chapel not far from here might be in difficult circumstances.

I wondered why I got no response.

adrian009 said:

Can you given an example of an eternal principle?

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Thank you Adrian.

Philosophy, mythology, and rituals are three aspects on which religions vary. Teachers, however, teach commonly that there is But One Truth, which is our core.

siti said:

I am well aware of the profound problems that beset western liberal democracy - I have written elsewhere about what I perceive as the fatal flaws of the so-called "free" market economy and its puppet government system the bipolar pseudo-democratic "partocracy". But free market capitalism certainly works - if we judge it according to its own goals and standards - it puts the control of capital in the hands of the shrewdest investors and reduces both human ingenuity and industriousness and human satisfaction to two numbers expressed in dollars: "growth" and GDP. Any improvement in human health, education or (dare I say) happiness is incidental - either because it is a prerequisite for growth (relatively healthy and educated populations are generally more productive) or because it is a natural (but unintended) side-product (we have to think of more things that people will actually be prepared to buy to promote the consumerism that growth depends on).

I have an idea how to solve that - we simply reverse the roles of the free-market and the democratic political system. Make the brightest and best responsible for devising policies that genuinely make humans happier by rewarding the best policies with more policy making power (rather than more money) and democratize the economy by providing each person only as much money as they need to be happy (which would not be the same amount of money for everyone but the amount that genuinely maximised their "happiness"). Of course we would need some kind of metric - some kind of "happiness index" - to measure our success under such a system but surely there could be no more noble scientific "cause" in which to invest than the investigation of what it is that makes humans truly happy. And it would then be against this "index" that the "wealth of nations" could be measured. Does Baha'i have anything like that?

Since the objective is to establish a pattern for the governance of the world*, not just a religious organization, what does a Baha'i economy look like? Is it socialist, capitalist - or a hybrid like the one I just outlined? Or something entirely different?

*“It is the structure of His New World Order, now stirring in the womb of the administrative institutions He Himself has created, that will serve both as a pattern and a nucleus of that world commonwealth which is the sure, the inevitable destiny of the peoples and nations of the earth.” - Shogi Effendi

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Devising an economy that serves the people, rather than serving a wealthy minority has always been a concern. When investigating the Baha'i Faith I intuitively felt this Cause had the potential to meet the needs of humanity. The introductory book I read about the Baha'i faith was a book titled the earth is one country by John Huddleston, who had been an economist working for the IMF.

John Huddleston - Bahaikipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

I latter read a series of essays titled 'standing up for humanity.'

I suspect you would like some of his works.

Although I don't like communism, socialism has been an essential socio-political movement of the last 150 years.

Just System of Government

For human happiness, the first principle is Justice and Baha'u'llah has said the most beloved of all things in My sight is Justice. Turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 3-4

Spirituality is in no small measure about being of service to others and Baha'u'llah has brought about a system of institutions for governance of human affairs at all levels that assists us work collectively in everyone's interests. Unless we transform individually and collectively, every economic system will ultimately fail as the worlds economy while having some material successes is also contributing to widespread apathy and disenchantment of many.

Unless we are on the same page, our efforts will be dissipated and our achievements limited.

Vinayaka said:

From what I've seen in life, it appears to me that gender roles and persecution/cruelty/kindness is very individualised. That is, you see harsh conditions in every religion, people misinterpreting their own scriptures, and acting out of selfishness. You also see totally non-religious people being the kindest, gentlest husbands and wives, setting tremendous examples for family and community.

Sadly I've seen 'head of the household' mistranslated to mean 'dictator' also. So it all seems separated from religion in that way.

In Hinduism, the soul has no gender, so ideally, as a goal, we see all as souls, not personalities. But that's the ideal, not always easily lived up to. Also because of reincarnation, we would overall be male and female about an equal amount of lifetimes.

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oldbadger said:

That would not be acceptable here in the UK any more.

The above two sentences alone would plunge our growing equality freedoms back more than half a century.

Young men who know they have a special ability to teach juniors and infants would be excluded from their vocations.
Couples who love each other would be handicapped for income where the husband could tend home while the wife pursues a career.
Imagine the social stigmas attached to house husbands.

Anybody who tried to enforce the above conditions in the UK would be breaking the law.

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To understand the Baha'i POV we need to look at range of Baha'i writings and not just one.

Reverence for, and protection of, motherhood have often been used as justification for keeping women socially and economically disadvantaged. It is this discriminatory and injurious result that must change. Great honor and nobility are rightly conferred on the station of motherhood and the importance of training children. Addressing the high station of motherhood, the Bahá’í Writings state, “O ye loving mothers, know ye that in God’s sight, the best of all ways to worship Him is to educate the children and train them in all the perfections of humankind. . . .”The great challenge facing society is to make social and economic provisions for the full and equal participation of women in all aspects of life while simultaneously reinforcing the critical functions of motherhood.

http://www.bahai.org/documents/nsa-usa/two-wings-bird

It needs to be emphasised that each couple with children makes decisions about how best to approach the balance of care of children and meeting the families financial needs. Sometimes as we all know circumstances necessitate role reversal, where the women works and the man stays at home. It is a decision made through consultation between husband and wife as equals.

Should Bahá’í Mothers Stay at Home?

oldbadger said:

That would not be acceptable here in the UK any more.

The above two sentences alone would plunge our growing equality freedoms back more than half a century.

Young men who know they have a special ability to teach juniors and infants would be excluded from their vocations.
Couples who love each other would be handicapped for income where the husband could tend home while the wife pursues a career.
Imagine the social stigmas attached to house husbands.

Anybody who tried to enforce the above conditions in the UK would be breaking the law.

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True for Canada too. My daughter is an electrician, as a close to home example of changing but not totally acceptable gender roles.

InvestigateTruth said:

So, for instance, where it says period of Genetiles is 1260 days, which also must be the end of 2300 days period, then the 1000 years also must point to the same year.

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What?????

adrian009 said:

We can point to female leaders of countries and empires during antiquity but in reality they are unlikely to account for more than 1% of such leaders.

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We have agreed in the past that the further back we go in history the less we know. I would seriously doubt the 1% idea. Anthropological studies of hunter/gatherer societies have shown participation by all, including decisions that affected the group.

oldbadger said:

Does Bahauallah agree with you?
Did he write about predestination?

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I think so.
I quote Baha'u'llah:


"Say: This is the sealed and mystic Scroll, the repository of God’s irrevocable Decree, bearing the words which the Finger of Holiness hath traced, that lay wrapt within the veil of impenetrable mystery, and hath now been sent down as a token of the grace of Him Who is the Almighty, the Ancient of Days. In it have We decreed the destinies of all the dwellers of the earth and the denizens of heaven, and written down the knowledge of all things from first to last. Nothing whatsoever can escape or frustrate Him, whether created in the past or to be created in the future, could ye but perceive it."

"Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."

adrian009 said:

It needs to be emphasised that each couple with children makes decisions about how best to approach the balance of care of children and meeting the families financial needs. Sometimes as we all know circumstances necessitate role reversal, where the women works and the man stays at home. It is a decision made through consultation between husband and wife as equals.

Should Bahá’í Mothers Stay at Home?

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Interesting link ... one terse statement on how nothing is fixed in stone, and then a rather lengthy essay on why mothers should stay at home.

In my view, it's all about choice ... whatever works best for the couple, and that should be without undue coercion from outside. People who make choices against the majority feel the subtle pressure, unfairly, in my opinion. That said, we chose to have mom stay at home.