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How are these Great Beings explained?

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Predestination?
Is Bahai Predestined?
To my understanding yes. My understanding based on Scriptures is that, the Book of God is revealed from Age to Age in which all details of future events are described. It is like the plan of God for future was already determined in the world of 'pre existence'. However this predestination does not contradict with human free will. Certain things are predestined. Specifically the events related to a Revelation. For instance, that Jesus must have been put to death and rise of His religion was predestined. Or exile of Bahaullah to Akka though outwardly was done by His enemies, it was predestined.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Taking credit where credit isn't due is a human folly, I'm afraid, both on a group level, and on an individual level. It's almost funny on an individual level when you're privy to the truth. The temple I work with has a few people come by occasionally and tell me how they were at the helm of things when the temple began. I just smile.

But yes, back some 10 000 posts ago, the entire United Nations, Gandhi's work, all the peace activists out there etc., were all caused by one Persian guy. Athletes give credit to God (or Jesus) when they win but never when they lose. That duality mindset runs incredibly deep. So deep the adherents don't notice it about themselves.
Absolutely.
It's a form of prejudgement, or rather, misjudgement.
The UN claim is most strange. Various groups and bodies are allowed to sit as silent non-participant observers in the various UN 'courts'. The Bahais are invited to sit on one or two of these Courts, but the way that some Bahais have explained this to me (in the past) you would think that Bahai is guiding the UN in its every decision.

Thlose Bahais probably believed that, but there could be a point where such claims might be described as deception.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
To my understanding yes. My understanding based on Scriptures is that, the Book of God is revealed from Age to Age in which all details of future events are described. It is like the plan of God for future was already determined in the world of 'pre existence'. However this predestination does not contradict with human free will. Certain things are predestined. Specifically the events related to a Revelation. For instance, that Jesus must have been put to death and rise of His religion was predestined. Or exile of Bahaullah to Akka though outwardly was done by His enemies, it was predestined.

Does Bahauallah agree with you?
Did he write about predestination?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Absolutely.
It's a form of prejudgement, or rather, misjudgement.
The UN claim is most strange. Various groups and bodies are allowed to sit as silent non-participant observers in the various UN 'courts'. The Bahais are invited to sit on one or two of these Courts, but the way that some Bahais have explained this to me (in the past) you would think that Bahai is guiding the UN in its every decision.

Thlose Bahais probably believed that, but there could be a point where such claims might be described as deception.

But as with the athletes, Baha'u'llah is given no credit for the Boer War, 2 world Wars, the Vietnam War, ISIS, etc. You'd think a manifestation of God could take credit for all things that happen in His universe.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
We're very unequal, in terms of gender roles. The temple priest is traditionally a male gender role. Monasteries, traditionally, are of two kinds, male and female. There are some reasons for this, and all gender roles in any society.

But the difference is that we don't claim we're equal, like Baha'i' do. So it's not the fact that the UHJ is all male, it's the fact that you say Baha'i' authority bodies are open to all, but then the action directly contradicts that.

We accept gender roles. The equality stuff happens in other areas of life where there are no gender roles, like in simply being a devotee of God. My priest here explained that ideal attitude well to me when we travelled together. He said, 'When the devotee steps into the temple, that step is a great equaliser. (Hindu temples have definitive doorways and boundaries between inside and outside.) and I treat everyone exactly the same ... rich, poor, old, young, male, female, etc.

We accept different roles for men and women in the Baha'i faith too. Women as the primary educators of children for example and men as the head of the household. There are flexibility round some roles but not all. Women have babies and breast feed and men don't so we can't change that. Equality does not mean sameness, but incorporates differences. We are however equal in the sight of God and Baha'u'llah teaches we always have been and always will be.

The Universal House of Justice has a role as head of the Baha'i Faith. It is the only institution in the Baha'i faith and part of our Faith community that is men only. Unlike other religions we have no priests or religious ministers in the Baha'i Faith the offer sacraments.

Two things seem likely to me:
First, that the Universal House of Justice at some stage will need to meet with other heads of faith communities such as Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism that are largely, if not exclusively the domain of men.

Second, that the Universal House of Justice as an institution and as individual members may become the target of persecution. An example of this, includes the complete disappearance of the National Spiritual Assembly after the Iranian revolution in 1979. Its members had of course been murdered by the new regime.

The Spiritual Assembly that Vanished - Iran Press Watch
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Thank you. Will have a look through later. Why would dates designated how soon people supported voting for women? (That's what the original OP said that Bahai were the first to support women's rights to vote rather than rejecting the Shia law in support of Islamic women's rights) and where is Badasht? I can't find it. It's not in a Western country, I would guess?

Badasht is a village of a rural Iranian province as the link suggests. Women were eligible to vote and be voted for in local assembly elections in the USA by 1911 compared to the date 1920 when women could vote in elections throughout the USA. The basis for this change was Abdu'l-Baha's guidance based on the Kitab-i-Aqdas as stated in another post. The point of the story about the Badasht conference is to emphasis that often there are many other steps to overcome before women can vote and some of those obstacles can seem insurmountable at the time. The Baha'i Faith from its earliest days has been at the cutting edge of progressive social change including rights of women.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Two things seem likely to me:
First, that the Universal House of Justice at some stage will need to meet with other heads of faith communities such as Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism that are largely, if not exclusively the domain of men.

I can't see this happening, but of course you could be right. I don't see Baha'i' as a big enough actor on the world stage, and of course none of the other religions have any heads of state, just hundreds of individual organisation leaders. There are quite a few Hindu and Christian institutions lead by women, Buddhists most likely also.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Badasht is a village of a rural Iranian province as the link suggests. Women were eligible to vote and be voted for in local assembly elections in the USA by 1911 compared to the date 1920 when women could vote in elections throughout the USA. The basis for this change was Abdu'l-Baha's guidance based on the Kitab-i-Aqdas as stated in another post. The point of the story about the Badasht conference is to emphasis that often there are many other steps to overcome before women can vote and some of those obstacles can seem insurmountable at the time. The Baha'i Faith from its earliest days has been at the cutting edge of progressive social change including rights of women.

I can't remember the name in the post, it wasn't Bahaullah. Someone came to America just about the time of the women's rights movement in about 1920. His name starts with Al'b... do you think (`Abdu'l-Bahá) his views of women in his country could have been influenced by what he saw in America? I mean we don't always need to be "the first" or "the oldest" to have a huge influence or significance in world or religious history.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
We accept different roles for men and women in the Baha'i faith too. Women as the primary educators of children for example and men as the head of the household.

From what I've seen in life, it appears to me that gender roles and persecution/cruelty/kindness is very individualised. That is, you see harsh conditions in every religion, people misinterpreting their own scriptures, and acting out of selfishness. You also see totally non-religious people being the kindest, gentlest husbands and wives, setting tremendous examples for family and community.

Sadly I've seen 'head of the household' mistranslated to mean 'dictator' also. So it all seems separated from religion in that way.

In Hinduism, the soul has no gender, so ideally, as a goal, we see all as souls, not personalities. But that's the ideal, not always easily lived up to. Also because of reincarnation, we would overall be male and female about an equal amount of lifetimes.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I have an unrelated question for you.

What got Bahai to follow Bahaullah alive in this time period rather than further than that as in Christianity with Christ, Islam with Muhammad, and Jews with Moses?

In Persia during the nineteenth century there was a strong sense of Messianic expectation similar to the time of Christ. There was a sense that Islam was too far gone to be reformed by man's efforts alone and that the time and conditions were right for the 12th Imam to return and renew Islam.

Mahdi - Wikipedia

There were similar expectations in the West regarding the return of Christ.

Predictions and claims for the Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia

The Shaykhi movement was a movement in Persia was very focused on the Mahdi prophecy and their followers under the leadership of Mulla Husayn were amongst the first to recognise the Bab as being that fulfilment.

Báb - Wikipedia

Mulla Husayn was the first one to recognise the Bab and his account of the evening he accepted the claims of the Bab is well known amongst the Baha'is.


Many people today would not believe her, if a manifestation came today and showed her face. Unless people are very impressionable, miracles and such doesn't make one a manifestation. It hasn't been a thousands years until we have a new revelation.

1800s is pretty close to 2017. My great grand relatives were born in the mid to late 1800s. Bahai and Mormon are the only two religions I know now that their prophets or manifestations are so recent, it's hard to really believe if they actually talked to god.

I don't believe humanity was ready to accept a female Manifestation of God during the nineteenth century. Perhaps next time round.:)

The Mormons as you can see from the link about predictions regarding the advent of the second coming of Christ were expecting His return during the nineteenth century. They do not believe Joseph Smith was the return of Christ.

I mean, time period does not make a difference if god speaks to one or not.

A lot of other religions direct or indirect have their faith based on time period, lineage, history, etc. That's how they track the validity of their religions through those who practiced it before 1800s.

Yesterday Baha'is throughout the world celebrated the 200th anniversary of the birth of Bab. It has been two hundred years since the birth of Baha'u'llah so we now have quite a long history going back to the eighteenth century with the establishment of the Shaykhi movement at the end of the 18th century.

Shaykh Ahmad - Wikipedia

That, and if we flipped it, how is Bahaullah much more connected with god than a Hindu guru when the former was living in our time period and the latter are living now? They both believe in god. So is it Bahaullah or something else?

We need to look at the Hindu guru, study his teachings and life, the effect his teachings had on his followers and the world. Then we can make a comparison to the Baha'i Faith and Baha'u'llah.
 
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danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The 'Spirit of God'....... ?
Do you believe that when good things happen, such as education, peace, equality, etc that it is or has been the Spirit of God which inspired these happenings?
Yes, I don't think that detracts from the individuals involved in good acts though, they still chose to act in accordance with courage and the dictates of their conscience, but to me these individuals are like clearer mirrors of God's light.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
1. He declared in His Sermon on the Mount, “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matthew 5: 38–39). Thus, the law of an “eye for an eye” was primarily a social law that was modified by Jesus and was not a timeless spiritual principle.

2. Indeed, anyone who violates the Sabbath “shall surely be put to death” (Exodus 31: 14). However, Jesus performed acts of healing and charity on the Sabbath. The Gospel of John relates, “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work” (John 5: 16–17). Likewise Jesus said, “The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath” (Mark 2: 27–28).

“Jesus’ attitude toward the Sabbath, coupled with the tradition that his resurrection occurred on the first day of the week (Sunday; cf. Matt. 28: 1), meant that Sunday rather than the Sabbath (Saturday) became the chief liturgical day for Christians.”

(Meeks, ed., The HarperCollins Study Bible, p. 1878; “Sabbath,” in Achtemeier, ed., The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary, p. 955.)

3. Jesus also altered the Jewish law of divorce. In the Old Testament, Moses said, “When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her; then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house” (Deuteronomy 24: 1). But Jesus said, “Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery” (Matthew 19: 8–9).

Advancement is not always measured quantitatively but also qualitatively. Christ brought a better quality of life and a more humane lifestyle.
Interested stuff in Jesus' sermon on the mount.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
How is this explained? But then he goes on:
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
So the ones that equal or less righteousness than the scribes and the Pharisees won't go into the kingdom of heaven? Next:
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
So can we take Jesus literally on his "social" laws? He makes qualitative changes? So if a person lusts or steals, that person should pluck his eye out or cut off his hand? And this is to avoid having the whole body being cast into hell? Since Baha'is don't believe in the Christian hell, was Jesus lying and trying to scare them into doing good by threatening them with hell? Next:
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
So the new "social" law is don't take revenge and expect the eye for the eye. Instead, if some one does something evil against you, let them do it again? If someone sues your for something, don't fight it, but give them more? And on the other one, go double the miles? This is the "official" new "social" law? I don't think it ever got enforced. Or, was it just examples of how to be spiritual and not be wrapped up in being material?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So now we have two localities/cultures out of perhaps 5000. Still statistically insignificant I'm afraid. And then what do you make of the Egyptian female pharaohs? Did Baha'u'llah cause that stride for women's rights too?

Further insight: Has any society in the past treated women as equals to men? Or something close to it? • r/AskHistorians

Obviously the Baha'i faith can not take credit for anything before 1844 and it makes sense to see parallel changes in the East and West as being part of a paradigm shift for this age that is most easily discerned by Westerners in European history during the renaissance period.

Clearly there have been examples of different cultures where there has been some degree of equality between men and women, but they have been the exception rather than the norm in history. We can point to female leaders of countries and empires during antiquity but in reality they are unlikely to account for more than 1% of such leaders.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
This is one description which throws into contrast the current world and what a future golden era of human civilisation will be like...

Women

For instance [in the future] should a woman ..., who is unsurpassed in her beauty and adorned with the most exquisite and priceless jewels, travel unveiled and alone, from the east of the world to the west thereof, passing through every land and journeying in all countries, there would be such a standard of justice, trustworthiness and faith on the one hand, and lack of treachery and degradation on the other, that no one would be found who would wish to rob her of her possessions or to cast a treacherous and lustful eye upon her beauteous chastity!...

Greed

He is My true follower who, if he come to a valley of pure gold will pass straight through it aloof as a cloud, and will neither turn back, nor pause. Such a man is assuredly of Me. From his garment the Concourse on high can inhale the fragrance of sanctity... And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty.

So the people of humanity’s golden age will not view lust and possessions as valuable as they do now. Good character, trustworthiness and truthfulness will be more important then.
But will there some greed and some lust? Or, will everyone be perfect? If not, then people will remain imperfect and only a few will be trying to reach the higher levels of perfection, but... still will never perfectly attain them. But what about the average people? Will they have a little bit of the negative traits in their character?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I can't remember the name in the post, it wasn't Bahaullah. Someone came to America just about the time of the women's rights movement in about 1920. His name starts with Al'b... do you think (`Abdu'l-Bahá) his views of women in his country could have been influenced by what he saw in America? I mean we don't always need to be "the first" or "the oldest" to have a huge influence or significance in world or religious history.

I agree that we don't need to be the first or oldest to have the biggest significance and influence on religious history.

In regards to Abdu'l-Baha, he started to have contact with Baha'is in the West during 1898, when they visited him in Akka, Palestine. Like Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha had spent a great deal of his life as an exile and prisoner. These years had adversely affected his health so to travel in his latter years was more challenging.

`Abdu'l-Bahá - Wikipedia

It was only during 1910 that he finally had the freedom to leave Palestine. He had been freed as a political prisoner of the Ottoman Empire by the Young Turks revolution in 1908. His only trip to the USA during April 1912 lasted less than 8 months. Some kind Baha'i wanted him to travel in luxury on this new state of art ship called the Titanic. Abdu'l-Baha declined and chose a more modest means of sea voyage on the smaller S.S.Cedric. It is an interesting question as to what influence that trip had on his thinking, but his direction for the Baha'i assembly's of the USA to allow women to vote and be elected was made the year before during 1911.

`Abdu'l-Bahá - Wikipedia
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Chapter 11 sets the scene for the emergence of the Baha'i Faith and the second and third woes.



Part of chapter 9 that I have just explained to you concerns changes in the Christians world.



Sounds like you are thinking about it from a protestant Christian POV, and a twenty first century perspective. It was written nearly two thousand years ago. Broader processes are examined as well as specific events in Abrahamic religious history.



No. Christianity, Islam, world events, and the Baha'i Faith. Its all there.
You said:
"These angels are to "slay" a third part of men for a period of 391 years.

The prophecy refers to the fall of Constantinople (Byzantium) and Eastern Christendom to the Turks under Sultan Mehmet II on 30 May 1453. The period of time from 30 May 1453 to 23 May 1844, the date of the second woe and the beginning of the Baha'i Era, was 391 Roman years. This is the period of time that the third part of Christendom would be cut off or deprived (slain), beginning with the collapse of the Christian East and lasting for the duation of the Dispensation of Muhammad. Mehmet's victory was said to have cut off one-third of Christendom. By the year 1453, Christendom had become divided into these three major parts: the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the anti-papist Christians who would soon form the Protestant branch.

Up to 1453 the figure for the Muslim cavalries has mounted to two hundred million. From the Umayyads in 632 AD to the Ottomans in 1453."
This is what you call dealing with Christianity and world events? It's all centered around Islam. So... did 1/3 of mankind get slain? Where did the 391 years come from? How do you arrive at the year 1453? When did the Eastern Church and the Roman Church split? When did Martin Luther get the things going that led to the Protestant Reformation?

How do you know how many Muslim cavalry men there had been? Did the Umayyads start in 632 AD and last only 'til the Ottomans in 1463? If so, then they didn't begin in the year that matched the number of the beast, 666. They also have been used with the addition of 1260 years to get to 1844.

But the big question... Is any of this "official" Baha'i interpretations?

Also, I didn't see or missed the explanation on how Baha'is know Baha'u'llah was a descendant of Jesse? And, how do they know what the genealogy was from Abraham all the way to Baha'u'llah? And, if you think the genealogy from Abraham forward is accurate, what about the genealogy going back? Does it go back to Adam and Eve? Thanks.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That would be a reasonable argument if each manifestation was teaching the world! They weren't. Hinduism didn't have any influence on the Hebrew people as Judaism didn't have much influence on India. They were geographically and culturally disconnected.
Yes, exactly. So how were the religions a progression? How did one bring "social" laws for that period of time and the next religion bring them for a new period of time? The religions to me are very wrapped up with the culture of the people where they began.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
You want me to explain the entire NT from a Christian and Baha'i perspective? Please be more specific.
"What was taught in the gospels and in the rest of the NT? Baha'is say they have the true meaning of it from Baha'u'llah. What is the true meaning?" So let me see how I can narrow this down for you. We all have a general idea of what the Christian perspective is. So forget that.

But what is the real, genuine meaning of the gospels? If Baha'is are correct, Christians don't have it. So that's what you can answer. What is the true meaning of the NT... in general terms first. We'll get into specifics later, if necessary.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I agree that we don't need to be the first or oldest to have the biggest significance and influence on religious history.

In regards to Abdu'l-Baha, he started to have contact with Baha'is in the West during 1898, when they visited him in Akka, Palestine. Like Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha had spent a great deal of his life as an exile and prisoner. These years had adversely affected his health so to travel in his latter years was more challenging.

`Abdu'l-Bahá - Wikipedia

It was only during 1910 that he finally had the freedom to leave Palestine. He had been freed as a political prisoner of the Ottoman Empire by the Young Turks revolution in 1908. His only trip to the USA during April 1912 lasted less than 8 months. Some kind Baha'i wanted him to travel in luxury on this new state of art ship called the Titanic. Abdu'l-Baha declined and chose a more modest means of sea voyage on the smaller S.S.Cedric. It is an interesting question as to what influence that trip had on his thinking, but his direction for the Baha'i assembly's of the USA to allow women to vote and be elected was made the year before during 1911.

`Abdu'l-Bahá - Wikipedia


In Bahai view, how is a woman's political roles outside of the Bahai faith "okay" but if she were to be an electing party of the UHJ, she would be declined?

I know I was reading that men and women have different roles say in having a baby, for example. Yet serving on the house of justice just as serving as a president are both political roles.

We are just finally "kinda" letting women be president yet people in America are still reluctant about it not because it's Hillary but the woman aspect too.

If spiritual roles are men and women are the same, why doesn't that reflect on their physical roles regardless if it's in politics, a church, or, can't think of the correct word, House of Justice?

How does god define what political role one should be on based on sex if it's not specific to procreation and having a baby?
 
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