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How are these Great Beings explained?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Diverting? No. Misunderstanding each other. That's more likey.

Baha'is generally don't use the word prophet a lot. Its much more part of the language and traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The words are Manifestation of God and there then are a galaxy of spiritually inspired people. We all are to some extent, although a few are in total darkness and seem to have an aversion to the light.

The station of the Manifestation is twofold. One is in the spiritual realm of God, the other is in the human realm. Ultimately their spiritual station is a mystery incomprehensible to humans.

For Baha'is to know the Manifstation of God, is to know God. Thats very different from Hinduism. However we all have varying human degrees of capacity. We all have some insight and we all are blind.

Can Baha'u'llah whom Baha'is believe to be the Manifestation of God for this day and so providing a message from God Himself be wrong? Baha'is believe he can not. Can Baha'is misunderstand His message and miscommunicate it? Definitely. :)

Does that answer your question?

I have an unrelated question for you.

What got Bahai to follow Bahaullah alive in this time period rather than further than that as in Christianity with Christ, Islam with Muhammad, and Jews with Moses?

Many people today would not believe her, if a manifestation came today and showed her face. Unless people are very impressionable, miracles and such doesn't make one a manifestation. It hasn't been a thousands years until we have a new revelation.

1800s is pretty close to 2017. My great grand relatives were born in the mid to late 1800s. Bahai and Mormon are the only two religions I know now that their prophets or manifestations are so recent, it's hard to really believe if they actually talked to god.

I mean, time period does not make a difference if god speaks to one or not.

A lot of other religions direct or indirect have their faith based on time period, lineage, history, etc. That's how they track the validity of their religions through those who practiced it before 1800s.

That, and if we flipped it, how is Bahaullah much more connected with god than a Hindu guru when the former was living in our time period and the latter are living now? They both believe in god. So is it Bahaullah or something else?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
No you have not, I was quoting a 1988 set of meetings in Normanton Qld where Assembly of God Pastors would rudely barge in on meetings spitting their fire. I gave no date. There was no talking with them as they continued with a yelling fest with no interest but to disrupt a peaceful loving meeting.

Would have been better if I called the Police, than try to calm them down, they left still spitting their fire. Interestingly they are both in the grave yard here now, and I still get to say a prayer at their graves.

To add to this any congregation member in the meeting would be told they could no longer have thier children at the Christain School for attending Baha'i Functions.

Again, instead of agreeing or saying the behaviour was unacceptable, you have chosen to use it in another manner.

Stay well and happy - Regards Tony

Oh.....
So....... you wouldn't do that today, or tomorrow, or in the future...... or did you say that you WILL?

Dear oh dear........
Now now, we will invite then, as one kindly invites them to stay and join in if they calm down or leave if they do not.

I mean..... you wouldn't DO this, would you?

Just common curtousy really and surly we do not have to defend doing this?
I wonder why I am
Regards Tony

Just leave it, Tony.

Regards, OldBadger
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

I think that they have all stated or re-stated the eternal principles.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Well, my post was in response to Tony's "The Baha'i learn war no more. Without references, the Message always brings opposition and it is written in the Bible that Satan or Evil is also released for a period of time after the Message.

Mankind does not think in Gods time, they always expect instant confirmations. It has never worked that way. Time unfolds the Wisdom."

That was his answer as to why there is still wars. Peace hasn't been established. And to say Satan or evil is also released after the message? That's why I said that Satan is released after 1000 years. So far in Revelation Baha'is have taken everything that isn't prophesied in days and turn them first into days and then into "prophectic" language and make them years. So is this 1000 years also first turned into days and then into years? You guys think you have the prophet that interprets all of this, so interpret it.

For me, I don't know what it means, but I'm looking for and expecting some consistency. Also I do not accept passing over some verses to get to the ones that Baha'is can make fit into their interpretation. If Baha'is have the interpretation then let's hear it.
To me the Prophecies you are referring regarding 1000 years and release of Satan have a figurative meaning.
Think of Revelation of God which is a true guidance as 'Light' and the absence of it as 'darkness' or that Satan or darkness which has covered the light of God.
In Scriptures, Religion of God is like 'Light'. When time passes, that light is faded, as is recorded that Jesus said, on that Day, the Sun shall not give light. It is like saying the darkness and evil takes over the truth of Religion of God. People cannot find the truth, because it would be lost. That is why Jesus said the earth will be oppressed. Now, when the Light comes again, the truth is re-established, and Satan or that darkness is gone from the 'Religion' of God. It does not mean that, the Satan or that darkness will be suddenly gone from the world. It means, the Satan will be removed from Religion of God. Meaning, the Religion of God which had fallen in the hands of oppressors, will become renewed. So, in my view, this prophecy is fulfilled. The religion of God, which had fallen in the hand of Islam Khalifs, is no longer in their hands. It is renewed with the new name 'Baha'i'.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
To me the Prophecies you are referring regarding 1000 years and release of Satan have a figurative meaning.
Think of Revelation of God which is a true guidance as 'Light' and the absence of it as 'darkness' or that Satan or darkness which has covered the light of God.
In Scriptures, Religion of God is like 'Light'. When time passes, that light is faded, as is recorded that Jesus said, on that Day, the Sun shall not give light. It is like saying the darkness and evil takes over the truth of Religion of God. People cannot find the truth, because it would be lost. That is why Jesus said the earth will be oppressed. Now, when the Light comes again, the truth is re-established, and Satan or that darkness is gone from the 'Religion' of God. It does not mean that, the Satan or that darkness will be suddenly gone from the world. It means, the Satan will be removed from Religion of God. Meaning, the Religion of God which had fallen in the hands of oppressors, will become renewed. So, in my view, this prophecy is fulfilled. The religion of God, which had fallen in the hand of Islam Khalifs, is no longer in their hands. It is renewed with the new name 'Baha'i'.

But this take on 'reality' and the future, and revelations is totally the Abrahamic view and ignores all other views on this planet ... unless ... all other views are considered do be darkness and evil. In this case all people are covered.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
It depends upon a person's viewpoint.
His theocratic system is different, but the details of that have been suppressed somewehat, by Bahais. :shrug:


Are you suggesting that without Bahauallah's writings women would not have voting rights today?
Anyway, maybe his motive was to de-stabilise Islam?
It is not as simple.
For example, the theist believe, God created the world. Atheists refer to the Science of evolution, or big bang, saying God did not created it. It happened through laws of physics and natural science.
The Baha'i faith would say, it is true that it happened through evolution, but the will of God was behind it. He wanted it to be created, and it did. We do not know how God created it, neither we can prove or disprove that God did or not.
Likewise, most people agree that since 19th century the world has changed very rapidly in comparison to previous ages. We saw technologies, science, social affairs, laws, and everything has changed all the sudden around the 19th century.
So, outwardly it seems that humanity did it. But Baha'i Scriptures says, it was through the Will of God. It was through the Holy Spirit that God created our new world. A new civilization. So, we see around that time, right of women also began to change.
I do not think We can 'directly' prove that all these new changes since 19th century was through the will of God. Neither anyone can disprove that it was not through the Will of God, and the Holy Spirit. But for a fact, there were prophecies in Islam, Christianity, and Jewism, that when 6000 years is passed from the days of Adam, a new world will come. It is also prophesied in Bible that when Christ returns, He will make all things new. And for a fact Bahaullah claimed to be the Promised One, and His appearance is around the same time that all the affairs of the world changed significantly, and it is like a new world appeared since the 19th century. Bahai Writings state that the 6000 years period ended in 1844, which is the Day of Manifestation of the Bab. The Day that the old world ended, and new one began.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh.....
So....... you wouldn't do that today, or tomorrow, or in the future...... or did you say that you WILL?

Dear oh dear........

I mean..... you wouldn't DO this, would you?

Just leave it, Tony.

Regards, OldBadger

Justice dictates some things are clarified.

Stay well and happy, look for the good in all things.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
No, it doesn't, so I'll try to re-word it, to avoid further diversion. Do you believe, that in regard to the 'Manifestation of God' named Baha'u'llah, that there are only two choices to evaluating him? The one choice being that he is a true manifestation, and the other choice being that he is a false manifestation? (A yes or no answer will suffice, quite adequately.)

I see what you mean now lol.

No. I agree that there is a continuum.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
In that one small locality, sure. Surely you're not suggesting the indigenous peoples' women all over the world were wearing veils. In the warmer climates, they wore very little, let alone veils.

Tahirih in removing her veil and exposing her face was an extremely radical and confronting action. Some Babi's lost their faith. It represented a break from over one thousand years of Islamic law. It demonstrated that this new religion would mean something entirely new for women.

In many Maraes (the meeting place of Maori or indigenous peoples) women are not allowed to speak. There is a famous incident in New Zealand when our former prime minister, Helen Clark, was prevented from speaking, even though she was the guest of honour.

Women on the marae: seen but not heard?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
But this take on 'reality' and the future, and revelations is totally the Abrahamic view and ignores all other views on this planet ... unless ... all other views are considered do be darkness and evil. In this case all people are covered.
In certain Hinduism sects also, there are similar prophecies and concepts. It may not be your particular sect of Hinduism. That there is only two states 'light', vs 'darkness'. Or good vs evil, or God vs Satan in Prophecies is 'Symbolic' in my view. It is not literal. It is not like you are literally either Evil or Good. But these two represent the two forces in the world. Darkness vs Light. Or falsehood vs Truth. But in each person a different levels of truth or falsehood is manifested. Everyone is different from everyone.
 
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danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Do you honestly think that without Bahauallah's writings that the key historical figures which pushed for women's rights would have stayed home?
I believe all truth is inspired by God, but in the past human beings hadn't discovered the equality of men and women on any large scale comparable to today, so perhaps the Spirit of God has inspired us to do more in this age than in prior ages.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Tahirih in removing her veil and exposing her face was an extremely radical and confronting action. Some Babi's lost their faith. It represented a break from over one thousand years of Islamic law. It demonstrated that this new religion would mean something entirely new for women.

In many Maraes (the meeting place of Maori or indigenous peoples) women are not allowed to speak. There is a famous incident in New Zealand when our former prime minister, Helen Clark, was prevented from speaking, even though she was the guest of honour.

Women on the marae: seen but not heard?

So now we have two localities/cultures out of perhaps 5000. Still statistically insignificant I'm afraid. And then what do you make of the Egyptian female pharaohs? Did Baha'u'llah cause that stride for women's rights too?

Further insight: Has any society in the past treated women as equals to men? Or something close to it? • r/AskHistorians
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
In certain Hinduism sects also, there are similar prophecies and concepts. It may not be your particular sect of Hinduism. That there is only two states 'light', vs 'darkness'. Or good vs evil, or God vs Satan in Prophecies is 'Symbolic' in my view. It is not literal. It is not like you are literally either Evil or Good. But these two represent the two forces in the world. Darkness vs Light. Or falsehood vs Truth. But in each person a different levels of truth or falsehood is manifested. Everyone is different from everyone.
My paradigm doesn't see life as two opposing forces. Apparently Zoroastrianism focused on it.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It is not as simple.
For example, the theist believe, God created the world. Atheists refer to the Science of evolution, or big bang, saying God did not created it. It happened through laws of physics and natural science.
The Baha'i faith would say, it is true that it happened through evolution, but the will of God was behind it. He wanted it to be created, and it did. We do not know how God created it, neither we can prove or disprove that God did or not.
Likewise, most people agree that since 19th century the world has changed very rapidly in comparison to previous ages. We saw technologies, science, social affairs, laws, and everything has changed all the sudden around the 19th century.
So, outwardly it seems that humanity did it. But Baha'i Scriptures says, it was through the Will of God. It was through the Holy Spirit that God created our new world. A new civilization. So, we see around that time, right of women also began to change.
I do not think We can 'directly' prove that all these new changes since 19th century was through the will of God. Neither anyone can disprove that it was not through the Will of God, and the Holy Spirit. But for a fact, there were prophecies in Islam, Christianity, and Jewism, that when 6000 years is passed from the days of Adam, a new world will come. It is also prophesied in Bible that when Christ returns, He will make all things new. And for a fact Bahaullah claimed to be the Promised One, and His appearance is around the same time that all the affairs of the world changed significantly, and it is like a new world appeared since the 19th century. Bahai Writings state that the 6000 years period ended in 1844, which is the Day of Manifestation of the Bab. The Day that the old world ended, and new one began.

Predestination?
Is Bahai Predestined?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I believe all truth is inspired by God, but in the past human beings hadn't discovered the equality of men and women on any large scale comparable to today, so perhaps the Spirit of God has inspired us to do more in this age than in prior ages.
The 'Spirit of God'....... ?
Do you believe that when good things happen, such as education, peace, equality, etc that it is or has been the Spirit of God which inspired these happenings?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
So now we have two localities/cultures out of perhaps 5000. Still statistically insignificant I'm afraid. And then what do you make of the Egyptian female pharaohs? Did Baha'u'llah cause that stride for women's rights too?

Hi........ this seems to be a common chatacteristic of many religions, that they point to conditions such as peace, better education, equality, etc and say, 'Look! Our religion caused this!'

:facepalm:
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Hi........ this seems to be a common chatacteristic of many religions, that they point to conditions such as peace, better education, equality, etc and say, 'Look! Our religion caused this!'

:facepalm:
Taking credit where credit isn't due is a human folly, I'm afraid, both on a group level, and on an individual level. It's almost funny on an individual level when you're privy to the truth. The temple I work with has a few people come by occasionally and tell me how they were at the helm of things when the temple began. I just smile.

But yes, back some 10 000 posts ago, the entire United Nations, Gandhi's work, all the peace activists out there etc., were all caused by one Persian guy. Athletes give credit to God (or Jesus) when they win but never when they lose. That duality mindset runs incredibly deep. So deep the adherents don't notice it about themselves.
 
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