Isiah 45:7.

Akivah · Oct 16, 2017

ADigitalArtist said:
There are two satans in Judaism (at least, some of those beliefs I've read.) There is an angel, but he isn't evil.

There is only one Ha' Satan in the Tanakh, and that isn't its name. The Satan is a Hebrew word that should be translated as 'adversary'. The Satan is an angel of G-d, it isn't able to rebel against G-d. As Job shows, the adversary is limited to what G-d says it can do.

ADigitalArtist said:
The adversary is the inclination to sin in all human hearts. To a Jew, worrying about who is tempting you is shifting blame.

Wrong. We don't blame an outside agency for making mistakes. We take personal responsibility for our own mistakes.

Rival · Oct 16, 2017

Akivah said:
There is only one Ha' Satan in the Tanakh, and that isn't its name. The Satan is a Hebrew word that should be translated as 'adversary'. The Satan is an angel of G-d, it isn't able to rebel against G-d. As Job shows, the adversary is limited to what G-d says it can do.

Wrong. We don't blame an outside agency for making mistakes. We take personal responsibility for our own mistakes.

I think she is talking about yetzer ha ra.

Akivah · Oct 16, 2017

Father said:
Isiah 45:7 a somewhat overlooked passage of the Old Testament. but the one quote that is from the King James version is " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Not only do Christians overlook this verse, it actually destroys most of their religion. To make it work for them, they mistranslate the word hara (evil) to calamity. This verse proves that G-d created everything, not as Christians believe that evil was created by someone else. And since G-d tells us that He created evil, we don't have the "Problem of Evil" that Christians have. Rather than ask "How could a good god allow evil to exist?", we ask "What is the purpose of evil in G-d's Creation?"

Father said:
if God creates Good and Evil. which is backed by the tree of knowledge which Adam and Eve ate from granting them knowledge of Good and Evil. or essentially Gods Morality. can there truly be an Adversary?

what are your thoughts on this?

There is an adversary, but it can only tempt us. The responsibility for our choices always lies with us.

ADigitalArtist · Oct 16, 2017

Akivah said:
There is only one Ha' Satan in the Tanakh, and that isn't its name. The Satan is a Hebrew word that should be translated as 'adversary'. The Satan is an angel of G-d, it isn't able to rebel against G-d. As Job shows, the adversary is limited to what G-d says it can do.

I didn't say it was his name or that it operated independently from God.

Akivah said:
Wrong. We don't blame an outside agency for making mistakes. We take personal responsibility for our own mistakes.

That is what I just said.
'The adversary is the inclination to sin in all human hearts. To a Jew, worrying about who is tempting you is shifting blame.'

Akivah · Oct 16, 2017

ADigitalArtist said:
I didn't say it was his name or that it operated independently from God.

That is what I just said.
'The adversary is the inclination to sin in all human hearts. To a Jew, worrying about who is tempting you is shifting blame.'

No, what you said is different from what I said:
1) The inclination to make mistakes was put into our hearts by G-d.

I see I misread the second sentence, sorry about that. Yes, claiming your actions were due to someone else is shifting blame.

Tumah · Oct 16, 2017

ADigitalArtist said:
There are two satans in Judaism (at least, some of those beliefs I've read.) There is an angel, but he isn't evil. He is more like the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Exists on God's authority to test mankind's worthiness. (Angels in Judaism are extensions of God's will and couldn't rebel even if they wanted to, rather like your arm couldn't rebel against your body. Only humans have free will in that respect.) In Judaism the biggest and most problematic Satan is in humans. The adversary is the inclination to sin in all human hearts. To a Jew, worrying about who is tempting you is shifting blame.

Not that I think you care, I'm just using your post to share. The title "adversary (satan)" in Judaism applies to an entire "encampment" of angels. There's the head angel who is in charge of testing mankind in general and smaller fractals in charge of individual people with the various inclinations we have. It's not two different satans, it just that it depends on whether you're talking about a general or individual level.

With regard to angels, although it is true that angels are an extension of G-d's Will (actuall an extension of an extension, not a direct extension), there exists an argument among Jewish scholars whether angels technically have free-will. By technically I mean, that even the side that posits they do have free-will, the Truth of G-d's domination is so apparent to them, that going against what G-d wants would be as crazy to them as jumping into a fire, but the option does exist.
It should also be noted though, that Jewish texts describe humans as being "extensions" of angels in a similar manner to angels being an extension of G-d's will. The question of angels free will seems to be related to whether there exists any degree of "not G-d" within the dimension of the being. In our dimension, its the majority and therein lies out ability to choose to follow G-d or not G-d. On the angelic dimension, it's the minority, but present nonetheless (perhaps in the existence of the extension of G-d's will appearing to manifest in the angel itself which is something that is not-G-d Himself, but I haven't yet seen it explained) and perhaps that degree is enough to grant them the potential ability of free-choice.

ADigitalArtist · Oct 16, 2017

Tumah said:
Not that I think you care, I'm just using your post to share. The title "adversary (satan)" in Judaism applies to an entire "encampment" of angels. There's the head angel who is in charge of testing mankind in general and smaller fractals in charge of individual people with the various inclinations we have. It's not two different satans, it just that it depends on whether you're talking about a general or individual level.

With regard to angels, although it is true that angels are an extension of G-d's Will (actuall an extension of an extension, not a direct extension), there exists an argument among Jewish scholars whether angels technically have free-will. By technically I mean, that even the side that posits they do have free-will, the Truth of G-d's domination is so apparent to them, that going against what G-d wants would be as crazy to them as jumping into a fire, but the option does exist.
It should also be noted though, that Jewish texts describe humans as being "extensions" of angels in a similar manner to angels being an extension of G-d's will. The question of angels free will seems to be related to whether there exists any degree of "not G-d" within the dimension of the being. In our dimension, its the majority and therein lies out ability to choose to follow G-d or not G-d. On the angelic dimension, it's the minority, but present nonetheless (perhaps in the existence of the extension of G-d's will appearing to manifest in the angel itself which is something that is not-G-d Himself, but I haven't yet seen it explained) and perhaps that degree is enough to grant them the potential ability of free-choice.

I care. I like learning about people's beliefs.

Faithofchristian · Oct 17, 2017

Father said:
Isiah 45:7 a somewhat overlooked passage of the Old Testament. but the one quote that is from the King James version is " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." the verse itself is quite metaphoric though I don't think that was the intention because the bronze age writers probably did not know darkness is just the absence of Light and is not created. simply a subtraction of a light source.

If the verse itself is taken as is it pretty much states the source of Light and Dark. Good and Evil. is first and foremost God.

there are other verses from different translations like in NCV "I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things."

which has a far less powerful quote. but still does not really remove the issue.

if God creates Good and Evil. which is backed by the tree of knowledge which Adam and Eve ate from granting them knowledge of Good and Evil. or essentially Gods Morality. can there truly be an Adversary?

what are your thoughts on this?

Ok, let's take the KJV of Isaiah 45:7.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things"

If you take each one one of these, The light being spoken of here, is not to be taken as sun light.
The light here is the light of truth that comes from the word of God.

Darkness is what comes from Satan, for Satan comes to deceive people to keep them in darkness from knowing the light of God's word.

Let's look at 1John 1:5--7--"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and and him is no Darkness at all. If we say that we have Fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, we have Fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanses us from all sin"

Therefore God Represents Light of Truth.
Satan Represents Darkness of lies.

Faithofchristian · Oct 17, 2017

Father said:
Isiah 45:7 a somewhat overlooked passage of the Old Testament. but the one quote that is from the King James version is " I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." the verse itself is quite metaphoric though I don't think that was the intention because the bronze age writers probably did not know darkness is just the absence of Light and is not created. simply a subtraction of a light source.

If the verse itself is taken as is it pretty much states the source of Light and Dark. Good and Evil. is first and foremost God.

there are other verses from different translations like in NCV "I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things."

which has a far less powerful quote. but still does not really remove the issue.

if God creates Good and Evil. which is backed by the tree of knowledge which Adam and Eve ate from granting them knowledge of Good and Evil. or essentially Gods Morality. can there truly be an Adversary?

what are your thoughts on this?

If you take that of Isaiah 45:7, God has given us to know what is evil and what is good, Without either one, how would you know what the difference is between good and evil.
Take away good and there was only evil, how would you what good is?
Take away evil, and was only good, how would know what evil is.

So both go hand in hand, to give us to know the difference between them.

Let's for say, that there was only light and no darkness.
How would you know to understand what darkness really is.

Jayhawker Soule · Oct 17, 2017

Father said:
what are your thoughts on this?

I think you would do well to consult a modern Jewish translation.

robocop (actually) · Oct 18, 2017

Could darkness be an absorption of light? Also, I think it must be accepted by now that God would have to have an evil element to create evil.

proudpagan · Oct 21, 2017

Father said:
what are your thoughts on this?

As usual bible is full of contradictions . Nothing new in it .

Is God the creator of evil?

Yes
Behold, this evil is of the Lord. 2 Kings 6:33

I ... create evil. Isaiah 45:7

What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? Job 2:10

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Lamentations 3: 38

Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6

No.
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. Psalm 5:4
God is love. 1 John 4:8

Isiah 45:7.

Akivah

Well-Known Member

Rival

se Dex me saut.

Akivah

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ADigitalArtist

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Akivah

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Tumah

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ADigitalArtist

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Faithofchristian

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Faithofchristian

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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --

robocop (actually)

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proudpagan

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