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How are these Great Beings explained?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
...Many Christians don't believe in a literal devil either.

Baha'is don't deny the miracles, but see a deeper meaning.

The resurrection including the ascension if taken literally makes no sense, and can be better explained by appreciating a spiritual context, admittedly not to the satisfaction of the conservative Christians...
Does the Baha'i Faith believe the next world is on a spiritual plane? Is there evil on it?

Don't Baha'is deny the literal interpretation of the miracles in the NT?

The Baha'i interpretation makes less sense. Jesus died and rotted away? But his followers said they saw him and spoke with him and make his resurrection the main focal point of way he came to Earth? Like Paul said...

1 Corinthians 15:13-15 …13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith. 15In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised.…

And that statement of Paul makes the Baha'i interpretation of the resurrection being the coming to life of his followers by starting to teach his word makes absolutely no sense.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Those that were taught in the gospels and elucidated by the apostles.



It was all taught by preaching and the telling of stories. The Gospels were not written for at least 20 years after Christ was crucified. The apostles were inspired by the Unerring spirit of God.

Who wrote the Gospels



In many things yes, in others such as the divinity of Christ and the triune nature of God, no.

Deja vu?:)
What was taught in the gospels and in the rest of the NT? Baha'is say they have the true meaning of it from Baha'u'llah. What is the true meaning?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Hi Carlita,

I’m not sure how Adrian and I have disagreed.

As far as I’m aware, the teachings of all the Manifestations complement each other. The spiritual laws such as love one another and turn the other cheek are eternal laws. Social laws change with the times,
What were the temporary social laws that Jesus brought?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
What were the temporary social laws that Jesus brought?

Well he changed the law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth to love thy neighbor.

The sabbath from Saturday to a Sunday and the Jewish law of divorce was altered.

Jesus did not bring laws for community or country but more for individual behaviour such as charity, love and forgiveness. It was Muhammad foretold in the Bible to appear after Jesus Who would bring laws for community and the basis of establishing nations.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Well he changed the law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth to love thy neighbor.
Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.............
The sabbath from Saturday to a Sunday and the Jewish law of divorce was altered.
Nope.
Absolutely not.

Jesus did not bring laws for community or country but more for individual behaviour such as charity, love and forgiveness. ................
Jesus was rebelling against Temple corruption and malpractice, and for the restitution of the poor-laws.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That’s a very fair question. I’ll try and answer it but I’m no enstein as you can see. Christians have always had this Disneyland almost fairytale interpretation of Christ’s return. That He will magically appear in the sky and the Kingdom of God will descend to the earth and everything will auto correct. Something like that.

With the Baha’is we see it more pragmatically. That Christ returned as a Man and brought the blueprint for the Kingdom of God which Christians are to build not a ready made kingdom.

So with instructions and laws for a new spiritual world civilisation given by Baha’u’llah, Christ returned in the glory of the Father, we are building it step by step. Now if Christians would have recognized Christ when He returned, this Kingdom of God, a world spiritual civilisation might be already established. But because they rejected Him, humanity has to wait maybe centuries longer until it becomes fully established because we are only a tiny handful.

It is not a concrete Kingdom or a political one but a transformation of the nature of man and society from one of corruption and immorality to one of Justice and virtues. We live in an age where consumerism, greed and capitalism dominate so this transformation is not going to happen overnight.

If all humanity worked together to establish the kingdom of God then it would happen much faster but we have each chosen our own way so this kingdom has very few workers to build it so humanity suffers longer. This means to our understanding that the world will remain filled with corruption and injustice longer and immorality and vices will be more difficult to change.

So really it’s not just what the Baha’is are doing but a better humanity is everyone’s responsibility.
Christians belief there will be great turmoil... their tribulation. Don't Baha'i believe there will be something similar?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Well he changed the law of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth to love thy neighbor.

The sabbath from Saturday to a Sunday and the Jewish law of divorce was altered.

Jesus did not bring laws for community or country but more for individual behaviour such as charity, love and forgiveness. It was Muhammad foretold in the Bible to appear after Jesus Who would bring laws for community and the basis of establishing nations.
Jews had love thy neighbor already and using the tooth for a tooth verse is taking it out of context. And there were no nations until Muhammad? What did he teach that allowed or caused nations to be established?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Christians belief there will be great turmoil... their tribulation. Don't Baha'i believe there will be something similar?

We believe humanity has a glorious future and already in science and technology we can see a global village emerging.

Of course if a sick patient refuses to take his medicine his illness will get worse but its the vision of a peaceful world, a world where everyone has an opportunity to reach his/her full potential and where poverty and war are things of the past is the vision keeping us going. Where the conflicting religions can live side by side in peace.

I want to continue to enjoy my life, good food and good company and the last thing I want is turmoil. So I’m just hoping we just transition to a golden age as smoothly as possible.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
How about animal sacrifices? Perhaps God would like to see this expression of devotion reinstated?
So why did God already establish not harming animals in Hinduism and then tell the Jews to kill animals and burn them up? What kind of progression does God have going? If each manifestation took humans to the next level, then should Hindus have followed the Laws of Judaism and leave their spiritual teachings?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
We believe humanity has a glorious future and already in science and technology we can see a global village emerging.

Of course if a sick patient refuses to take his medicine his illness will get worse but its the vision of a peaceful world, a world where everyone has an opportunity to reach his/her full potential and where poverty and war are things of the past is the vision keeping us going. Where the conflicting religions can live side by side in peace.

I want to continue to enjoy my life, good food and good company and the last thing I want is turmoil. So I’m just hoping we just transition to a golden age as smoothly as possible.
I was told by Baha'is that they expected things to get so bad that the world turns to the Baha'i Faith. By bad I mean wars and famines and pestilence kind of things. Is that not true?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Jews had love thy neighbor already and using the tooth for a tooth verse is taking it out of context. And there were no nations until Muhammad? What did he teach that allowed or caused nations to be established?

Well Christ changed the sabbath day and laws on marriage.

Muhammad was the first to my knowledge to establish a constitution that wrote other religions into it I think it was called the Constitution of Medina. It was written around 622 AD.
Muhammad created Arabia from the scattered and feuding tribes of that time and united them into one nation. It was the first time ever Muslims, Jews and Christians were all recognized as citizens as Muslims believe in both Jesus and Moses.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Revelation 9:13-16

These verses are leading us into the second and third woe.

The four horns symbolize the four winds of prophecy that blow over the world of man. The symbolism of the four angels bound inthe Euphrates River is that Islam, bound together by the Euphrates, will be the origin of the punishments and tests to follow. The four angels will control the corners of the square earth during the Dispensation of Muhammad. These angels are to "slay" a third part of men for a period of 391 years.

The prophecy refers to the fall of Constantinople (Byzantium) and Eastern Christendom to the Turks under Sultan Mehmet II on 30 May 1453. The period of time from 30 May 1453 to 23 May 1844, the date of the second woe and the beginning of the Baha'i Era, was 391 Roman years. This is the period of time that the third part of Christendom would be cut off or deprived (slain), beginning with the collapse of the Christian East and lasting for the duation of the Dispensation of Muhammad. Mehmet's victory was said to have cut off one-third of Christendom. By the year 1453, Christendom had become divided into these three major parts: the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the anti-papist Christians who would soon form the Protestant branch.

Up to 1453 the figure for the Muslim cavalries has mounted to two hundred million. From the Umayyads in 632 AD to the Ottomans in 1453.

Chapter 10 serves as an interude from the first woe (The Islamic dispensation) to the Baha'i era (second and third woes). So what Great Being is central stage to this unfolding drama? The mighty angel is of course the spirit of Baha'u'llah, clothed with a cloud of glory, the rainbow of the Convenant upon His head, His countenance shining as the sun in its median splendor, and His feet of brass as if they were pillars of fire. The little book is the Word of God. His right foot is upon the sea of the spirit, and His left foot is upon the world of matter. His voice is as the Lion of Judah. The seven thunders are the voices of the seven Manifestations of God of with their respective seven Faiths.

The mighty angel reveals that the hidden mysteries of God; that is, His precepts and commands, will be revealed at the end of the Age of Prophecy when the Age of Fulfillment will begin. The End of the Age will coincide with the blast of the seventh angel.

John is commanded to accept (eat) the Word of God. He discovers that the words are easy (sweet) when they are merely spoken (in the mouth) but are difficult (bitter) when they are actually lived.

The prophecies of the first six angels beginning with Chapter 8 verse 7 were directed primarily to the Christians. John is now commanded to prophesy again, this time to many peoples and nations: Islam.

Chapter 11, we have Abdu'l-Bahas interpretation.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

The story of humanity and future events that will unfold do jump around a little, as prophecy weaves back and forth like a rich tapestry.
Yes, it weaves around. So we already are finished with the first Woe, supposedly Muhammad. Now chapter 11 goes back to Islam? And like I've asked before, What about all the things that happened in the Christian world? The Popes, Martin Luther, the Inquisition, the British Empire, the European discovery of the New World, the rise of the U.S. and the world wars, the things happening right now, with environmental problems and militant Islam, China and Russia, North Korea.... none of this is prophesied in Revelation? Only things about Islam and the Baha'i Faith?
 

arthra

Baha'i
I was told by Baha'is that they expected things to get so bad that the world turns to the Baha'i Faith. By bad I mean wars and famines and pestilence kind of things. Is that not true?

Well the choice is with us... that is our governments I think.
In 1867 or around that time Baha'u'llah sent letters to the then Rulers suggesting to them they could convene a representative Parliament of the world powers as well as an International Court of Arbitration to settle disputes. The Rulers declined to do this and it took WWI to start a flegling world body called the League of Nations... It was inadequate and so we had to have another war.. WWII and our current world body was formed. Let's home we can get it right this time!
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Looks like Equal Rights for Women started in 1866 in America
Which started the Women's suffrage movement in about 1920.
At 1920 it became constitutional.
Abdu’l-Bahá l came to the states around the same time. He probably supported the admendment already supported by many people before 1920.
New Zealand (unless @adrian009 corrects me) is a western country and they gave women rights in 1893 so there was some type of support way before 1920.
Bahaullah born in 1817 and just short research The Bab start preaching in 1844 and assuming he went along with his countrys culture, womens rights were no wear near given.

It is correct that New Zealand was the first country that allowed women to vote in national elections.

The first event that really put Baha'u'llah on the map promoting women's rights was the conference at Badasht in 1848.

Conference of Badasht - Wikipedia

Tahirih was encouraged to remove her veil exposing her face demonstrating that Sharia law had been superseded by the new Teachings of Bab. At this stage there was no democracy and few rights for women.

Táhirih - Wikipedia

A Gathering of the Poems of Tahirih
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Well Christ changed the sabbath day and laws on marriage.

Muhammad was the first to my knowledge to establish a constitution that wrote other religions into it I think it was called the Constitution of Medina. It was written around 622 AD.
Muhammad created Arabia from the scattered and feuding tribes of that time and united them into one nation. It was the first time ever Muslims, Jews and Christians were all recognized as citizens as Muslims believe in both Jesus and Moses.
Where is it in the NT where Jesus changed these laws?

So the thing about nations. So then no nations until Muhammad. What did Jesus bring? Since it has to be a progression... it has to be something less than nations. So cities? Then before Jesus, what did that manifestation bring? Unity of the village? And then the one before him? And so on. Only problem is... didn't we have great empires going why back? So I don't see how the Baha'i explanation about how each manifestation brought larger groups of people into larger societal groups.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Well the choice is with us... that is our governments I think.
In 1867 or around that time Baha'u'llah sent letters to the then Rulers suggesting to them they could convene a representative Parliament of the world powers as well as an International Court of Arbitration to settle disputes. The Rulers declined to do this and it took WWI to start a flegling world body called the League of Nations... It was inadequate and so we had to have another war.. WWII and our current world body was formed. Let's home we can get it right this time!
Things don't look very right to me. Isn't there some prophecies about the immediate future?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I was told by Baha'is that they expected things to get so bad that the world turns to the Baha'i Faith. By bad I mean wars and famines and pestilence kind of things. Is that not true?

Well we hope it doesn’t come to that and are striving to promote unity and harmony between religions, races and nations.

We believe in the goodness of all people so we hope that it won’t get to that stage but with all the nukes in the world anything could happen.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Why just two choices, true, and false? (Abrahamic thinking comes to mind again.) Why not a continuum? That's how I see each person. Everyone has a lesson to give, in some way. Some have more.

It is true that we have something to learn from everyone we come in contact. Many decision in life are not necessarily a choice between right or wrong, but they can often be choices between the best of two options. Do I stay or do I go for example. Shall I walk this road or another?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Why just two choices, true, and false? (Abrahamic thinking comes to mind again.) Why not a continuum? That's how I see each person. Everyone has a lesson to give, in some way. Some have more.
It is so much like the same old thing. Mormons, JW's and other Christians say the same thing... "We are true." They will show the written proof in their writings. And say, "You see, it so clear and obvious." No, it is not obvious. Not if they and others, including the Baha'is, think they have the correct beliefs. As soon as they believe that, it makes all others false.

Sure, I believe anybody that follows the basic teachings of the Baha'i Faith will become better people. But, so will Mormons, JW's and other Christians... and... I think even people that follow Hinduism. But, is everything in all those different religious beliefs true? I don't think they have to be... only believed to be true for the followers.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So you believe if Muslims or Christians lived up to their teachings , the world would be a paradise? What do you mean by 'I could have told you that'?
What about Christians like the Amish? Is there world a paradise? No, if they were the only ones on Earth, there would still be natural disasters and wild animals killing people. So what is going to happen in a Baha'i world? Earthquakes, hurricanes? Sharks and grizzly bears? Crocodiles and lions? Renegade people forming gangs to steal and plunder? How perfect is it really going to be?
 
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