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How are these Great Beings explained?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Revelation 9:13-16.

Historians have written that when John wrote Revs he lived upon a prison island offshore from Ephesus.
I have also read that this island supported a species of hallucinogenic fungus or mushroom.

Does anybody here have any knowledge about these claims?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
If He is a false religious teacher then I am blind, if He a true spiritual teacher, then He has given me some spiritual insight and assisted me to walk the spiritual path.

Why just two choices, true, and false? (Abrahamic thinking comes to mind again.) Why not a continuum? That's how I see each person. Everyone has a lesson to give, in some way. Some have more.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Vinayaka I found out something interesting. I knew different cultures in buddhist traditions bow differently. Tibetan's full bow is how you describe hindu lay in full arms out face to floor. In vietnamese it's different. Also, tibetan has a lot of mysticism in their meditations. Ima try to go to a nearby retreat at the monastery somewhat near me to learn more.

Similar bows probably have to dl with culture. Chinese buddhism was one of the first to transmit from india to other countries. Some kept the culture of india others didn't.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
I could have told you that. Half the people on the planet could have. Heck, you knew it yourself before you ever found Baha'i'.
So you believe if Muslims or Christians lived up to their teachings , the world would be a paradise? What do you mean by 'I could have told you that'?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So you believe if Muslims or Christians lived up to their teachings , the world would be a paradise? What do you mean by 'I could have told you that'?

Actually I believe the world will never be a paradise. But I meant we could eliminate the man-made suffering. Disease, weather, drought, pain, death and all that stuff can't be eliminated.

As far as 'I could have told you that' goes, it's a comment on how the Baha'i' seem to present Baha'u'llah's words as if they were the wisest things to ever come out of someone's mouth, when it's just common sense. For example, a Baha'i' will say, "Did you know that Baha'u'llah says to be nice to your neighbour." Well, all this just shows that Baha''llah isn't all that special, since most anyone can draw the same conclusions. But sure, if you want to see that as some kind if exalted wisdom, be my guest. Perhaps the Baha'i' didn't know that you should be kind to your neighbour. If that's the case, they must have been in some very low place in consciousness.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Wow!
Fair enough.

Would you brush a scorpion out of your home, or crush it?

We don't get scorpions here, but if the door was nearby, and it was possible, I'd brush it out. I blow mosquitoes off my arm, if the opportunity presents itself. But no, we cannot avoid killing something that might actually cause us harm. There is a quote from the Tirukkural (ancient Tamil ethical scripture) about that. "If the tiger enters the village, it is your duty to kill it."

So ahimsa, given the modern scientific knowledge we have regarding germs, our modes of transport, etc. is impossible. We know that. Still we (ahimsa minded Hindus) attempt to do what we can. At the temple I volunteer at we get wasps nests. Whether or not I take it out with the killer spray depends entirely on the location.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Actually I believe the world will never be a paradise. But I meant we could eliminate the man-made suffering. Disease, weather, drought, pain, death and all that stuff can't be eliminated.

As far as 'I could have told you that' goes, it's a comment on how the Baha'i' seem to present Baha'u'llah's words as if they were the wisest things to ever come out of someone's mouth, when it's just common sense. For example, a Baha'i' will say, "Did you know that Baha'u'llah says to be nice to your neighbour." Well, all this just shows that Baha''llah isn't all that special, since most anyone can draw the same conclusions. But sure, if you want to see that as some kind if exalted wisdom, be my guest. Perhaps the Baha'i' didn't know that you should be kind to your neighbour. If that's the case, they must have been in some very low place in consciousness.
I see. So, you think most of the things Bahaullah taught are too simple and common sense that most people would know and There is nothing special about His teachings.

But many of the teachings of Bahaullah were unknown to the people of the world in His time. It is known now, because His ideas were spread throughout the world by His followers, and others were inspired indirectly. For example the right of voting for women. The Bahai Faith promoted voting right of women before any other country in the west or east did. To verify this, you should see at what year women started to have voting rights in different countries, and then also see at what year Bahai women were voting.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I see. So, you think most of the things Bahaullah taught are too simple and common sense that most people would know and There is nothing special about His teachings.

But many of the teachings of Bahaullah were unknown to the people of the world in His time. It is known now, because His ideas were spread throughout the world by His followers, and others were inspired indirectly. For example the right of voting for women. The Bahai Faith promoted voting right of women before any other country in the west or east did. To verify this, you should see at what year women started to have voting rights in different countries, and then also see at what year Bahai women were voting.

Yes indeed that is what I think. Not saying he wasn't a wise man for his day. But then, in those days, given the lack of education for the masses, and other factors, it wouldn't take much to look wise. But my comment was directed at LH, in regard to what would happen if people lived up to their teachings. Frankly, I'm not that familiar with Abrahamic teachings, but most certainly Hinduism and Buddhism have had ahimsa (non-violence) in them for a very long time, long long before Baha'u'llah's time. As for women getting the right to vote, in the feudal times of those days, basically nobody got to vote. Peasants of any gender had little rights at all,. That came along with democracy. Kings and dictators ruled the day.

As for equality of women, I don't believe the Baha'i' can make any arguments at all until your top great panel of nine is open to women. If New Zealand, India, England, Canada, Germany, even Pakistan, can elect women to the top position, you'd certainly think a group like Baha'i', given all their ranting about women's equality, certainly could.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Yes indeed that is what I think. Not saying he wasn't a wise man for his day. But then, in those days, given the lack of education for the masses, and other factors, it wouldn't take much to look wise. But my comment was directed at LH, in regard to what would happen if people lived up to their teachings. Frankly, I'm not that familiar with Abrahamic teachings, but most certainly Hinduism and Buddhism have had ahimsa (non-violence) in them for a very long time, long long before Baha'u'llah's time. As for women getting the right to vote, in the feudal times of those days, basically nobody got to vote. Peasants of any gender had little rights at all,. That came along with democracy. Kings and dictators ruled the day.

As for equality of women, I don't believe the Baha'i' can make any arguments at all until your top great panel of nine is open to women. If New Zealand, India, England, Canada, Germany, even Pakistan, can elect women to the top position, you'd certainly think a group like Baha'i', given all their ranting about women's equality, certainly could.
We were talking about Right of voting for women, not equality of men and women.
Baha'i scripture does not teach men and women are the same and equal. It teaches that Spirit does not have gender, thus, spiritually speaking, the betterment of a person, has nothing to do with the gender. spiritually men and women in the sight of God are created the same. Physically they are not the same. In this earthly world Each are given a different role by God.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I see. So, you think most of the things Bahaullah taught are too simple and common sense that most people would know and There is nothing special about His teachings.

But many of the teachings of Bahaullah were unknown to the people of the world in His time. It is known now, because His ideas were spread throughout the world by His followers, and others were inspired indirectly. For example the right of voting for women. The Bahai Faith promoted voting right of women before any other country in the west or east did. To verify this, you should see at what year women started to have voting rights in different countries, and then also see at what year Bahai women were voting.

Can you show us the dates that bahai promoted women to vote? Also, what type of voting? If political, why is it different for thr UHJ and say the states? If spiritual, why is spiritual view of men and women equal like wings but divided when it comes to political roles?

It sounds like a contradiction to support womens rights to vote outside your faith but inside women are limited. Women outside your faith wanted to vote for many reasons not just political. A lot of whom felt it degraded them as human beings when they are segregated by their sex.

Kind of like saying "dont speak ill of someone" but you do so because you have justification for it that others dont see moral unless it applies to both sides or none at all.

This is in a lot of religions.

Looks like Equal Rights for Women started in 1866 in America
Which started the Women's suffrage movement in about 1920.
At 1920 it became constitutional.
Abdu’l-Bahá l came to the states around the same time. He probably supported the admendment already supported by many people before 1920.
New Zealand (unless @adrian009 corrects me) is a western country and they gave women rights in 1893 so there was some type of support way before 1920.
Bahaullah born in 1817 and just short research The Bab start preaching in 1844 and assuming he went along with his countrys culture, womens rights were no wear near given.

In all cases, there are many people in all time areas before bahai that supported womens rights. The dates tell specific events but not individual initiatives.

Religously, christianity has "no men and no women and no jew and no gentile; all are children of god". This is before bahai came about too.

Also, womens right to vote is not just a spiritual issue but a political one. In Bahaullahs writings, women cant politically take place in the UHJ to vote. Why support women to vote outside your faith but when its inside your faith, womens political roles are limited just as before 1920 in America?

Also, how are womens rights to vote unique when its been a problem needed addressing way before bahai came to existence?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes indeed that is what I think. Not saying he wasn't a wise man for his day. But then, in those days, given the lack of education for the masses, and other factors, it wouldn't take much to look wise. But my comment was directed at LH, in regard to what would happen if people lived up to their teachings. Frankly, I'm not that familiar with Abrahamic teachings, but most certainly Hinduism and Buddhism have had ahimsa (non-violence) in them for a very long time, long long before Baha'u'llah's time. As for women getting the right to vote, in the feudal times of those days, basically nobody got to vote. Peasants of any gender had little rights at all,. That came along with democracy. Kings and dictators ruled the day.

As for equality of women, I don't believe the Baha'i' can make any arguments at all until your top great panel of nine is open to women. If New Zealand, India, England, Canada, Germany, even Pakistan, can elect women to the top position, you'd certainly think a group like Baha'i', given all their ranting about women's equality, certainly could.

I don't see the Baha'is as ranting about anything. Is that what you really see?

We don't have presidents or prime ministers in the Baha'i Faith. We have elected National Spiritual Assemblies in each of the countries you mention and 184 countries in total. We have good representation of women on those institutions through out the world.

Bahá'í Faith and gender equality - Wikipedia

If we are going to make comparisons about elected national leaders, then comparisons to elected Baha'i national institutions are fair enough.

How about positions of leadership in Hinduism and India generally? How do woman rate? How about the treatment of women generally? Is meaningful data collected?

Are there National or International governing bodies for Hinduism as a whole? I have the impression that would be difficult given the diversity of belief within Hinduism and the degree of decentralisation.

International governance is a relatively new phenomenon but essential for humanities well being and prosperity as the twentieth century has clearly taught. The Baha'i writings talks about a supreme tribunal in the future which of course will have membership of women along with the many other institutions to be established. Apart from the Universal House of Justice, all other institutions international, national, and local are well represented by women.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don't see the Baha'is as ranting about anything. Is that what you really see?

Depends how you define 'rant' I guess. It comes up quite a bit, yes, it does. And there is always plenty that the Baha'i' adherents say to defend the position. The idea of equality is just plainly a myth, when the top is what it is. Sorry, but no explanation works.

How many of the Baha'i's on this thread have written to the House of Justice to complain about the unfair treatment of women when it comes to being elected to the highest court of Baha'i'?
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I see. So, you think most of the things Bahaullah taught are too simple and common sense that most people would know and There is nothing special about His teachings.
It depends upon a person's viewpoint.
His theocratic system is different, but the details of that have been suppressed somewehat, by Bahais. :shrug:

But many of the teachings of Bahaullah were unknown to the people of the world in His time. It is known now, because His ideas were spread throughout the world by His followers, and others were inspired indirectly. For example the right of voting for women.
Are you suggesting that without Bahauallah's writings women would not have voting rights today?
Anyway, maybe his motive was to de-stabilise Islam?
 
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