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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So what questions would you like answered?
Many are too long ago for an old man to remember, but one I recall was recently when you admitted that you should have worded your stuff about non-Baha'i's being blind better, and I asked just how you would have reworded that.

I've often asked Tony to explain what he';s trying to say, and he just leaves. Stuff like that. If I recall something more, I'll ask.

But none of this really matters at this point in this discussion.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Christians blame man's problems on Satan and the fall of man. What do Baha'is say? God made them too stupid to understand and live by God's Word? If God did, then the blame is on the Creator for making a faulty product.

Baha’is are told it’s our own fault for making bad choices and that has been the cause of world peace being delayed. Nothing to do with any fictitious figure. We have to grow up and be mature enough to accept responsibility for our own deeds otherwise we are just living in denial.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Many are too long ago for an old man to remember, but one I recall was recently when you admitted that you should have worded your stuff about non-Baha'i's being blind better, and I asked just how you would have reworded that.

You are not even in your 80s and calling yourself an old man?:)

We are all blind to some degree and we all see.

Sometimes we see those who are true friends as enemies and mistake our enemies for friends.

We may be slow to recognise outstanding ability in whatever sphere of capacity. Other times we are deceived and idolise those whose outer and inner nature differ.

In regards to the rise of the Baha'i Faith, in Persia while some recognised outstanding qualities in both the Bab and Baha'u'llah, others saw them as being enemies of Islam who perverted the Quranic teachings. Some in response at allegations and misrepresentations of the clerics to persecute and kill the Baha'is. Whatever the merits of the Baha'i Faith to act in such a way was contrary to any spiritual outlook.

There were those who chose to see with their own eyes and investigate the truth or otherwise by first hand experience. There with those who blindly followed the religious leaders of the day as they fuelled the fires of animosity with false accusations and calumny.

In regards to those participating on this thread there have been a range of responses to the OP. Who Baha'u'llah really is. That is the question and the mystery. If He is a false religious teacher then I am blind, if He a true spiritual teacher, then He has given me some spiritual insight and assisted me to walk the spiritual path. Whatever the answer to that question, you, @Carlita and others here have taken the time to respectfully and courteously talk with the Baha'is here and consider Baha'u'llah's teachings. That alone says a great deal. There are some in all honesty that I would view as spiritually blind. I have never thought of you in that way, not even close.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
How about this teaching from the NT?

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Transient or Eternal?

The Amish, I think, still do this today. If I were to make sense of it today, rather than displace it, I'd probably say that the roles of women are different (not right or wrong just different) than we have outside the bible. In the bible, you have adam and eve. Eve was the one who started the downfall, so it's assumed that women are spiritually less smart than men are in the role of husband and wife. Hence why America has a father is the breadwinner type of thing. Not right or wrong.

It's an eternal teaching because to Christians that's how god wanted men and women to be in relation to each other. It goes along with this verse: Ephesians 5:12 "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord."

I learned while studying Buddhism, there are some teachings that I am uncomfortable with and that is okay. Many Christians have this view of men over women. If both parties are fine with it, it's not against the law, what is wrong with it?

-Not my or your opinions. I have different views on christian teachings. It just makes sense that it's eternal. It's an Adam and Eve relation that and all the verses in the NT regarding marital vows. I don't agree with picking and choosing how I want to believe something if it is not consistent with what the Sangha believes at its foundation.

My belief? Everything is transient. Nothing is eternal.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
How about animal sacrifices? Perhaps God would like to see this expression of devotion reinstated?

Believe it or not christian-like religions still have animal sacrifice. The Santeria religion, and the Santera I spoke with said that a lot of Americans don't come back to ceremonies to start with the belief because animal sacrifice is crucial to their practices. Santeria: Catholic and Lukumi faith together.

Animal sacrifices in scripture were for remission of sins. People still kill animals. Just a lot of religions, I think maybe Jewish too, have meals with the sacrificed animal. It's more of a culture thing. I haven't seen animal sacrifice predominate in one denomination. Some see food as important to come together as a family in christ (like with Moses etc) and others do not.

It goes deeper than that.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@adrian009 Better example I can give is homosexuality. Christianity believes it's a sin (the act). I understand why they believe what they do. It is logical. It makes sense. That's different than saying whether it is moral or not. Their teachings about homosexuality and the unity of man and woman are relevant today as it was yesterday/in the past. The unity between a married couple is eternal in Christianity. I mean I can disagree with their position and see it as immoral all I want but it doesn't change the fact that Christianity has a huge influence on society and regardless their beliefs, it's affecting homosexuals towards suicide.

But the belief makes sense. It's logical. It's just misplaced. We do not need to address the teachings. It's relevant for today as it was yesterday. We address the people who hurt people in the name of their teachings. If it hurts no one, direct or not, and the critics are kept within the christian community, I see nothing wrong with it.

I can't speak much about male and female. It's probably the same idea as females but marital relations and love between two women and two men are not mentioned in the bible. So, I don't know.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
My belief? Everything is transient. Nothing is eternal.

Its good to see the Buddhist coming out in you. You seem to be arguing before that all the teachings of the religious founders are eternal, and none of them transient.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
@adrian009 Better example I can give is homosexuality.

I had considered this example but wasn't reluctant to start posting laws Mosaic laws about sexual deviancy and the punishments. There are quite a few.

Does Buddhism have anything to say about marriage and sexuality?

Is it still relevant today?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I can't speak much about male and female. It's probably the same idea as females but marital relations and love between two women and two men are not mentioned in the bible. So, I don't know.

How about this for equality.

“The world of humanity is possessed of two wings: the male and the female. So long as these two wings are not equivalent in strength, the bird will not fly. Until womankind reaches the same degree as man, until she enjoys the same arena of activity, extraordinary attainment for humanity will not be realized; humanity cannot wing its way to heights of real attainment. When the two wings . . . become equivalent in strength, enjoying the same prerogatives, the flight of man will be exceedingly lofty and extraordinary.”
Abdu'l-Baha

Two Wings of a Bird

Yesterday a 37 year woman became prime minister of New Zealand btw.

Jacinda Ardern - Wikipedia
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Its good to see the Buddhist coming out in you. You seem to be arguing before that all the teachings of the religious founders are eternal, and none of them transient.

That's what Christians believe. Another member on here was kinda confused too between what I believe based on what I say. I don't have quarms with the Christian faith; so, it's easier to defend it. If someone asked me what I believe, that would be totally different.

Buddhist believe all is transient. Everything is changing and nothing stays the same (I had to look up the word in the dictionary, lol) Christians believe the afterlife is eternal whereas in Buddhism, rebirth is not. It's just a part of life. Even when there is no one living on the planet, it's still in constant rebirth.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I had considered this example but wasn't reluctant to start posting laws Mosaic laws about sexual deviancy and the punishments. There are quite a few.

Does Buddhism have anything to say about marriage and sexuality?

Is it still relevant today?

Yes.

[The Blessed One said:] "If both husband & wife want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come, they should be in tune [with each other] in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment. Then they will see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come." Samajivina Sutta

A Happy Married Life The Dhammapada

Most cultures I know focus on male and female. Christianity, it's a spiritual teaching for unity and continuation of god's creation through family. In Buddhism, marriage isn't a "sacrament." Monks remain celibate because sexual relations of any type deludes the mind forming attachment to the body and lust. As laity, I took the precept of not having sexual impurity. I don't know if impurity-lust of the flesh not love of "spirit" for lack of better words.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
How about this for equality.

“The world of humanity is possessed of two wings: the male and the female. So long as these two wings are not equivalent in strength, the bird will not fly. Until womankind reaches the same degree as man, until she enjoys the same arena of activity, extraordinary attainment for humanity will not be realized; humanity cannot wing its way to heights of real attainment. When the two wings . . . become equivalent in strength, enjoying the same prerogatives, the flight of man will be exceedingly lofty and extraordinary.”
Abdu'l-Baha

Two Wings of a Bird

Yesterday a 37 year woman became prime minister of New Zealand btw.

Jacinda Ardern - Wikipedia

I like that.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I have never heard of, or witnessed anything like this. If Baha'is arrange a public meeting or talk we answer questions as they arise.

If we don't know the answer, we simply say 'I don't know'.

There's no going out the back to work out how we'll respond to questions.:)

Bully for you.........
Do you read other Bahai member's posts?
Clearly my memory is as clear as daylight about this.

I have had meetings where pastors barged in doing what they do.
Basically it is embarrassing for them, so yes I too would take them outside so they stopped embarrasing themselves.
Regards Tony

Now now, we will invite then, as one kindly invites them to stay and join in if they calm down or leave if they do not.
Just common curtousy really and surly we do not have to defend doing this?
I wonder why I am
Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Once I read that looking upon a woman with lust was the same as committing adultery with her, I knew that most men were going to have a problem living by the standard Jesus was expecting. Baha'i moral standards are just as high. I wonder if Christians and Baha'is able to live up to those standards?
Indeed.
The trouble with us humans is that our driving forces are fundamentally as ruthless as the peregrines, but with one seriously despicable extra characteristic.

The peregrine, sparrow, bacteria and snake just do what they do, they have natural integrity, whereas the human being can shift its standards as fits its needs.

And so, sadly, I wouldn't bet a penny on any World government being honest, true, pure and uncorrupted, regardless of its claims to Godliness.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Minutes of local assembly meetings are confidential as they may contain personal information about individuals and other institutions. The minutes of the Universal House of Justice are likely to be kept confidential for similar reasons.

You may be interested in the constitution of the Universal House of Justice. I know you have had concerns in the past about transparency and the potential for abuse of power.

The Constitution of the Universal House of Justice - 21 April 1963

This features on the Universal House of Justice's website.

I will access that link and read it, but later.
The reason why I asked the question was because you wrote that most UHJ decisions are voted without any dissent, or 100% 'for motion' votes. I just weondered how you knew that.

There are problems with the UHJ structure imo. Where 9 members cannot agree it is allowed that as few as 5 may sit and vote upon a 'Bill' or proposal.

Now such a struicture (not necessarily a Bahai one) could invite dissenting members to go on a wonderful journey to evaluate, say, a fishing community in the Pacific, expenses paid of course, with spending money, with spouse and family, for a month...................... and hold the vote again.

And...... Bingo! A 100% 8 member vote for the prosed Bill.

Me? A Skeptic? Never! I was just an old dog commercial detective for decades. It's amazing what you find out in such a grimy old job.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Bully for you.........
Do you read other Bahai member's posts?
Clearly my memory is as clear as daylight about this.

Clearly your have an experience of Baha'i meetings that is very different from mine and I accept that.

We used to have many public meetings with excellent speakers and as a community or group of Baha'is participating we never felt the need to step outside and consult if someone asked a difficult question.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I will access that link and read it, but later.
The reason why I asked the question was because you wrote that most UHJ decisions are voted without any dissent, or 100% 'for motion' votes. I just weondered how you knew that.

There are problems with the UHJ structure imo. Where 9 members cannot agree it is allowed that as few as 5 may sit and vote upon a 'Bill' or proposal.

Now such a struicture (not necessarily a Bahai one) could invite dissenting members to go on a wonderful journey to evaluate, say, a fishing community in the Pacific, expenses paid of course, with spending money, with spouse and family, for a month...................... and hold the vote again.

And...... Bingo! A 100% 8 member vote for the prosed Bill.

Me? A Skeptic? Never! I was just an old dog commercial detective for decades. It's amazing what you find out in such a grimy old job.

One a local level for a decision to be passed it only requires a majority vote (5 out of 9) but on issues such as these we will often consult until we have at least listened to everyone's POV before voting.

'They must then proceed with the utmost devotion, courtesy, dignity, care and moderation to express their views. They must in every matter search out the truth and not insist upon their own opinion, for stubbornness and persistence in one’s views will lead ultimately to discord and wrangling and the truth will remain hidden. The honoured members must with all freedom express their own thoughts, and it is in no wise permissible for one to belittle the thought of another, nay, he must with moderation set forth the truth, and should differences of opinion arise a majority of voices must prevail, and all must obey and submit to the majority.'

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 87-89

The same principle applies to the Universal House of Justice.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Now it goes to the events taking place during the second Woe? Rev 9:15-16... one third of mankind killed. A two hundred million horsemen army. Chapter 10... What's that all about? Then, Chapter 11... The two witnesses and the beast that kills them. Since we already went through Muhammad in the description of the first Woe, how do Baha'is make this about Muhammad again?

And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Revelation 9:13-16

These verses are leading us into the second and third woe.

The four horns symbolize the four winds of prophecy that blow over the world of man. The symbolism of the four angels bound inthe Euphrates River is that Islam, bound together by the Euphrates, will be the origin of the punishments and tests to follow. The four angels will control the corners of the square earth during the Dispensation of Muhammad. These angels are to "slay" a third part of men for a period of 391 years.

The prophecy refers to the fall of Constantinople (Byzantium) and Eastern Christendom to the Turks under Sultan Mehmet II on 30 May 1453. The period of time from 30 May 1453 to 23 May 1844, the date of the second woe and the beginning of the Baha'i Era, was 391 Roman years. This is the period of time that the third part of Christendom would be cut off or deprived (slain), beginning with the collapse of the Christian East and lasting for the duation of the Dispensation of Muhammad. Mehmet's victory was said to have cut off one-third of Christendom. By the year 1453, Christendom had become divided into these three major parts: the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the anti-papist Christians who would soon form the Protestant branch.

Up to 1453 the figure for the Muslim cavalries has mounted to two hundred million. From the Umayyads in 632 AD to the Ottomans in 1453.

Chapter 10 serves as an interude from the first woe (The Islamic dispensation) to the Baha'i era (second and third woes). So what Great Being is central stage to this unfolding drama? The mighty angel is of course the spirit of Baha'u'llah, clothed with a cloud of glory, the rainbow of the Convenant upon His head, His countenance shining as the sun in its median splendor, and His feet of brass as if they were pillars of fire. The little book is the Word of God. His right foot is upon the sea of the spirit, and His left foot is upon the world of matter. His voice is as the Lion of Judah. The seven thunders are the voices of the seven Manifestations of God of with their respective seven Faiths.

The mighty angel reveals that the hidden mysteries of God; that is, His precepts and commands, will be revealed at the end of the Age of Prophecy when the Age of Fulfillment will begin. The End of the Age will coincide with the blast of the seventh angel.

John is commanded to accept (eat) the Word of God. He discovers that the words are easy (sweet) when they are merely spoken (in the mouth) but are difficult (bitter) when they are actually lived.

The prophecies of the first six angels beginning with Chapter 8 verse 7 were directed primarily to the Christians. John is now commanded to prophesy again, this time to many peoples and nations: Islam.

Chapter 11, we have Abdu'l-Bahas interpretation.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

The story of humanity and future events that will unfold do jump around a little, as prophecy weaves back and forth like a rich tapestry.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Clearly your have an experience of Baha'i meetings that is very different from mine and I accept that.

We used to have many public meetings with excellent speakers and as a community or group of Baha'is participating we never felt the need to step outside and consult if someone asked a difficult question.
OK, but I have referred you to clear evidence that in other places this still occurs today.
 
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