Is Islam peaceful?

Muslim-UK said:

You're not attacking Muslims, thus no Muslim has a right to harm you. You have your way, and we have ours. Remember in the sight of GOD you having understood the message are viewed as the worst of creation, and it is for HIM alone to do with you as HE pleases when you return to Him.

Muslims are just responsible for relaying the message as best we can.

And numerous articles showing people from ALL backgrounds, faiths and no faiths attacking innocent people. It just shows every community has its bad sheep.

Your book makes no difference. Our ouls don't return to you for any kind of Judgement.


You don't believe in a Creator and think death leads to nothingness, thus no danger of standing before GOD and facing Judgement for being the 'worst of creatures'. I'm not even sure why Atheists bother posting on here. If you're wrong and there is GOD waiting for you, I'm sure you will be able to convince Him of your arguments. You should be aware, on that day your thoughts and anything you conceal will be laid bare.

Rape, torture and murder of non combatants is forbidden in Islam. If others are taught to fight with the same honour, then great.

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You seem a decent sort.
And you would be no matter what faith you held.
But lesser folk don't benefit either themselves or
others by adopting the Koran as inerrant truth.
It cruelly & arbitrarily divides us into enemies & allies.

icehorse said:

(First off, it's fun to be sparring again )

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icehorse said:

It seems like this boils down to one of our long running disagreements, my summary of which is that I see religion as a much bigger factor in shaping society than you do. Does that seem like a fair summary?

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I think culture has a very significant effect, I just think you start with the conclusion you want and seek to fit everything around this.

icehorse said:

So my understanding is that Ghazali is considered to be the 2nd most influential Muslim ever. My reasoning is that if the 2nd most influential Muslim ever made a big deal out of saying that Allah, not physics, is what makes the world run, such a claim would have a strong negative impact on intellectual pursuits outside of theology.

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So you are making an assumption based on a very superficial understanding of Ghazali's philosophy, while completely ignoring fundamental structural changes to society as being unimportant?

Ghazali didn't simply say 'God did it so don't bother studying'. He had 3 major issues with Avicenne: bodily resurrection in heaven, that the world wasn't eternal, and that effect follows cause due to God's will. The latter is of most significance yet basically it was an argument about why miracles are possible. He didn't believe God whimsically changed effect as this would confuse people, effect followed cause due to convention, not necessity and God usually followed His convention except for miracles.

This doesn't have much of an impact on many aspects of science or philosophy, and doesn't mean study is useless. Study of certain aspects of philosophy, logic for example, increased after Ghazali.

You still haven't answered what do you think caused the GA btw?

Or why you discount things like being invaded by the Mongols (who sacked Bagdad, the preeminent centre of learning) , the fragmentation of empire, reduced wealth, changing patterns of patronage for scholars, the translation movement having run its course, etc as being significant?

@Augustus In this last post you made three inaccurate assumptions (all starting with the word "you"), about my arguments. All of your assumptions cast my stance as far more black and white than it is.

icehorse said:

In this last post you made three inaccurate assumptions

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Sorry.

What were they?

icehorse said:

Who would you blame?

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The person

Epic Beard Man said:

The person

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Whom?

Muslim-UK said:

In my post, I said the Qur'an says it is a reminder. I posted the verses and you said out of context Here's the first verse I posted, highlighted...

Ta, Ha. verse 1
We have not sent down to you the Qur'an that you be distressed, but only as a reminder for those who fear [ Allah ] Qur'an 20 verses 2-3

A revelation from He who created the earth and highest heavens, verse 4
The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established. verse 5
To Him belongs what is in the heavens and what is on the earth and what is between them and what is under the soil. verse 6

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And your claim that "the Quran is a reminder" is not what I'm disputing; nor was it part of my original argument.

How did I take the verse out of context?

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You quoted those verses in isolation in that particular post and the one in this post out of context; you didn't bother to mention the 3-4 verses before nor after each one. This was a standard you set.

Now you make the claim as most non believers do, the Qur'an commands Muslims to kill all the unbelievers, post the verse and let's see if you, like them are taking it out of context.

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Okay. Here's the usual one: Surah 2:190-193 but I'll include the 3-4 verses on either side of that as spoilers.


190: Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
191: And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
192: And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
193: Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

Spoiler: Ayahs 194 - 197

194: [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
195: And spend in the way of Allah and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.
196: And complete the Hajj and 'umrah for Allah . But if you are prevented, then [offer] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And do not shave your heads until the sacrificial animal has reached its place of slaughter. And whoever among you is ill or has an ailment of the head [making shaving necessary must offer] a ransom of fasting [three days] or charity or sacrifice. And when you are secure, then whoever performs 'umrah [during the Hajj months] followed by Hajj [offers] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And whoever cannot find [or afford such an animal] - then a fast of three days during Hajj and of seven when you have returned [home]. Those are ten complete [days]. This is for those whose family is not in the area of al-Masjid al-Haram. And fear Allah and know that Allah is severe in penalty.
197: Hajj is [during] well-known months, so whoever has made Hajj obligatory upon himself therein [by entering the state of ihram], there is [to be for him] no sexual relations and no disobedience and no disputing during Hajj. And whatever good you do - Allah knows it. And take provisions, but indeed, the best provision is fear of Allah . And fear Me, O you of understanding.

So basically the wider context seems to be explanations of religious duties. Hajj; Ramadan; fighting non-Muslims. There's your context.

Does Islam practice a form of Passive Aggression until it achieves dominance in the population of a country?

A Greased Scotsman said:

Okay. Here's the usual one: Surah 2:190-193 but I'll include the 3-4 verses on either side of that as spoilers.

Spoiler: Ayahs 185 - 189

185: The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.
186: And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.
187: It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah, so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous.
188: And do not consume one another's wealth unjustly or send it [in bribery] to the rulers in order that [they might aid] you [to] consume a portion of the wealth of the people in sin, while you know [it is unlawful].
189: They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the new moons. Say, "They are measurements of time for the people and for Hajj." And it is not righteousness to enter houses from the back, but righteousness is [in] one who fears Allah. And enter houses from their doors. And fear Allah that you may succeed.

190: Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
191: And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
192: And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
193: Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

Spoiler: Ayahs 194 - 197

194: [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
195: And spend in the way of Allah and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.
196: And complete the Hajj and 'umrah for Allah . But if you are prevented, then [offer] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And do not shave your heads until the sacrificial animal has reached its place of slaughter. And whoever among you is ill or has an ailment of the head [making shaving necessary must offer] a ransom of fasting [three days] or charity or sacrifice. And when you are secure, then whoever performs 'umrah [during the Hajj months] followed by Hajj [offers] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And whoever cannot find [or afford such an animal] - then a fast of three days during Hajj and of seven when you have returned [home]. Those are ten complete [days]. This is for those whose family is not in the area of al-Masjid al-Haram. And fear Allah and know that Allah is severe in penalty.
197: Hajj is [during] well-known months, so whoever has made Hajj obligatory upon himself therein [by entering the state of ihram], there is [to be for him] no sexual relations and no disobedience and no disputing during Hajj. And whatever good you do - Allah knows it. And take provisions, but indeed, the best provision is fear of Allah . And fear Me, O you of understanding.

So basically the wider context seems to be explanations of religious duties. Hajj; Ramadan; fighting non-Muslims. There's your context.

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190 makes clear you fight those who FIGHT YOU.

191 Take back your property from where they expelled you.

If they stop fighting you and want peace, then agree to it.

Seems very fair and reasonable to me. This just shows how non Muslims deliberately use selective verses without attempting to give any context.

You can see why Sir George Bernard Shaw wrote, "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

Afnan said:

Is Islam peaceful?

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Is Pizza pro war?

The persecution of ex-Muslims laid bare


Director,
Deeyah Khan - Wikipedia

She is the founder and CEO of production company Fuuse, which specializes in documentary films, digital media platforms and content for television broadcasters and live events. Her debut film as director and producer, Banaz A Love Story (2012), won a Peabody and Emmy awards, and was nominated for British Royal Television Society as Best Current Affairs Documentary. Her second documentary, Jihad: A Story of the Others, received BAFTA, Grierson and Monte-Carlo Television Festival nominations for best current affairs documentary. She is also the founder and editor-in-chief of Sister-hoodMagazine which spotlights the diverse voices of women of Muslim heritage and is among her most personal Fuuse productions. In 2016 Khan became the inaugural UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador for Artistic Freedom and Creativity.


Problem of violent intolerance and fundamentalism will never be solved until more peaceful Muslims stop denying how widespread such beliefs and actions are in their community even in the West and work to root it out.

The persecution of ex-Hindus, now Christians laid bare.

Muslim-UK said:

The persecution of ex-Hindus, now Christians laid bare.

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I am perfectly aware of Hindu fundamentalism. do not think think Hindus like me are doing nothing about it. I am involved in programs that support and expand the rights of people who are underrepresented or victimized within or outside Hindu community. I am as much against Hindu supremacists as against Islamic and Christian supremacists as I consider all of them to be evil ideologies that needs to be extirpated from society everywhere. Any Hindu who is oppressing or is violent against other human beings due to their religion or caste or belief has fallen prey to Asuric (demoniacal) delusions and tendencies. I won't share food or water with such a person and consider him or her untouchable until he/she repents or is punished for their actions.

sayak83 said:

I am perfectly aware of Hindu fundamentalism. do not think think Hindus like me are doing nothing about it. I am involved in programs that support and expand the rights of people who are underrepresented or victimized within or outside Hindu community. I am as much against Hindu supremacists as against Islamic and Christian supremacists as I consider all of them to be evil ideologies that needs to be extirpated from society everywhere. Any Hindu who is oppressing or is violent against other human beings due to their religion or caste or belief has fallen prey to Asuric (demoniacal) delusions and tendencies. I won't share food or water with such a person and consider him or her untouchable until he/she repents or is punished for their actions.

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That's good to know as persecution of minorities is a much more severe problem in India, than it is in Muslim Lands, in areas where functioning Governments have authority and control.

I've not seen you post about this problem before, but you seem very quick to point fingers at others. Perhaps it's a teaching in Hinduism?

Muslim-UK said:

That's good to know as persecution of minorities is a much more severe problem in India, than it is in Muslim Lands, in areas where functioning Governments have authority and control.

I've not seen you post about this problem before, but you seem very quick to point fingers at others. Perhaps it's a teaching in Hinduism?

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Which Muslim country do you have in mind that has a substantial religious minority but has persecution that is less than in India? I am not aware of any. Show your data.
There is very little discussion about India or China happening here as the forum is primarily populated by members who live in the West. Most Hindus here are also in the West only (except a few). If you wish to discuss Indian socio-religious-political matters, I am game.

Its your practice to point fingers at others when criticism of Islam is being made, as you have done here, again and again. I have never done so. Make a thread about criticisms you have of Hinduism and you will never find me bring up any other religion unless a comparison with that religion is being made by someone there.

I notice that you have not condemned the atrocious actions of the Muslims towards ex-Muslims of the community/family as clearly depicted in the video. Nor have you acknowledged it to be a problem of concern. Should I accept your silence and transparent attempt at diversion to Hinduism as tacit acceptance of such behavior as legitimate and acceptable for Muslims?

sayak83 said:

The persecution of ex-Muslims laid bare

Director,
Deeyah Khan - Wikipedia

She is the founder and CEO of production company Fuuse, which specializes in documentary films, digital media platforms and content for television broadcasters and live events. Her debut film as director and producer, Banaz A Love Story (2012), won a Peabody and Emmy awards, and was nominated for British Royal Television Society as Best Current Affairs Documentary. Her second documentary, Jihad: A Story of the Others, received BAFTA, Grierson and Monte-Carlo Television Festival nominations for best current affairs documentary. She is also the founder and editor-in-chief of Sister-hoodMagazine which spotlights the diverse voices of women of Muslim heritage and is among her most personal Fuuse productions. In 2016 Khan became the inaugural UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador for Artistic Freedom and Creativity.


Problem of violent intolerance and fundamentalism will never be solved until more peaceful Muslims stop denying how widespread such beliefs and actions are in their community even in the West and work to root it out.

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Thank you for posting that informative video. It seems that some good Muslims end up being dead ones.

Even so, I was surprised to find out that it has been reported that there are 1.5 million atheists in Saudi Arabia and another 4 million in Pakistan.

I thought the Internet might become Islam’s Achilles heel due to it being an educational tool for those with access to it. However, the UK government seems to want to restrict the free speech that it facilitates.

What I find difficult to understand, is why the far left are defenders and apologists of a far right organisation namely Islam.

True refugees came to the West to escape oppression only to find that that oppression is following them. No doubt, they would move on if they could find somewhere safe to go.

sayak83 said:

The persecution of ex-Muslims laid bare

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I remember watching this on TV the first time it aired. I cried then and I'm on the verge of tears after hearing Sadhya's story again. Omer El-Hamdoon' statement seems like victim-blaming and he avoids addressing the fact that these ex-Muslims are born peoples' sons & daughters before they have a religious label assigned to them.

"The Muslim community is a community that is based on religion so if a person chooses to stop being a Muslim they can't really expect that the Muslim community is still going to say to them "You're part of our community" because you've left Islam; you've left the religion."

His statement is somewhat revealing in that he only takes into account the notion that ex-Muslims still want to be treated like Muslims. They don't - they want to be treated like people; like human beings; like the sons & daughters, brothers & sisters they were viewed as before they came out as ex-Muslims. It's telling that El-Hamdoon implies that if people admit they're ex-Muslims then their family is right to feel a sense of betrayal - as if it's some sort of evil or crime to lose your faith and be open about it. It's also telling that Muslims in the West are telling their children 'if you apostatise, keep it to yourself or we'll be expected to kill you'.

Notanumber said:

I had forgotten about Muhammad’s scribe coming up with a better verse for the Quran than Muhammad and then becoming a Christian.

Spoiler: An Islamic expert explains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ojKL8A7qQ

EDIT:

Just as well I put it in a spoiler because it is worrisome and it’s not just in Canada.

As she says, Sharia Law stands for Paedophilia, wife beatings, killing infidels, performing Jihad, etc. It is a criminal law.

She doesn’t paint a pretty picture for women’s rights. A woman’s role is to submit or be punished. Honour killings are halal.

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That lady is an opportunist. I met her, I asked her what is the first revelation that mohammad peace be upon him was given, and she dead stared at me like WOWW I don't know ! I even asked her where in the quran does it say about honor killings, she ignored me. Shes a liar.

Augustus said:

Not a lot of racism? Gulf Arabs are amongst the most racist people on the planet.

The South Asians who go there are often treated like slaves. Literally worked to death, abused, not paid, etc.

Numerous Countries (Philippines, Indonesia, Uganda, etc) have, at times, banned their citizens from working as maids the Gulf because they kept getting raped, tortured, abused, etc.

Treating certain foreigners as being sub-human seems like a pretty egregious form of racism to me.

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No they're not. Of Course you hear of problems here and there. You're wrong. Why don't you visit there and see for yourself ? You're just a random guy in the internet spouting non-sense. Go see for yourself.