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Capitalism and Christianity

SinSaber

Member
Pursuit of perfection is a requirement for Christians:

Matthew 5:46-48

For, if ye may love those loving you, what reward have ye? do not also the tax-gatherers the same?

And if ye may salute your brethren only, what do ye abundant? do not also the tax-gatherers so?

Ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who [is] in the heavens is perfect.

To be perfect is to be without sin. In Christianity that's an oxymoron.

Also, your verse here is only if emotional perfection of love. True perfection means a perfection in every possible aspect. Again, in Christianity that's an oxymoron.

Captitolism is a means to improve your lot. Unlike socialism which would rather have everything static. Both can work in Christianity, but to condemn someone because they like to pursue their idea of a good life on earth is wrong.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Yeah none of that is requirement. It's a suggestion for wanting to be Christ likes. But when we get like that we start to feel superiority complexes arise. It's called middle ground



Yeah cause Christ did say there was none good among them



Those were for acolytes. Common people were just taught to do better.
To be perfect is to be without sin. In Christianity that's an oxymoron.

Also, your verse here is only if emotional perfection of love. True perfection means a perfection in every possible aspect. Again, in Christianity that's an oxymoron.

Captitolism is a means to improve your lot. Unlike socialism which would rather have everything static. Both can work in Christianity, but to condemn someone because they like to pursue their idea of a good life on earth is wrong.
sin is to be without compassion, without love.

if God is love, then all things are possible with love. capitalism is possible if the focus is on loving others as self and using the wealth to help in any number of ways.

proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers over all wrongs.


1 peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
 

SinSaber

Member
sin is to be without compassion, without love.

if God is love, then all things are possible with love. capitalism is possible if the focus is on loving others as self and using the wealth to help in any number of ways.

proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers over all wrongs.


1 peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

I'm sorry but I can't agree to that. That's like saying it's okay to steal if you give it to the poor.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
To be perfect is to be without sin. In Christianity that's an oxymoron.

Also, your verse here is only if emotional perfection of love. True perfection means a perfection in every possible aspect. Again, in Christianity that's an oxymoron.

Captitolism is a means to improve your lot. Unlike socialism which would rather have everything static. Both can work in Christianity, but to condemn someone because they like to pursue their idea of a good life on earth is wrong.

Keyword: pursuit. The pursuit of perfection is Jesus' command. Here, your idea of what is good, condemns what is good.

Capitalism is means to take ownership (of what is God's) and profit. Profit is the bottom line.

Democratic socialism would be the means to provide basic necessities to everyone, in the least. It is also more efficient. A vote would decide whether to colonize Mars. Or, it would decide whether to invest more effectively in a Cancer cure. Or maybe, whether we invest more in entertainment. The focus of a state, or country finds less division, and the accomplishment of goals becomes more prevalent.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I'm sorry but I can't agree to that. That's like saying it's okay to steal if you give it to the poor.

Matthew 12:3-4, 7

And he said to them, `Did you not read what David did, when he was hungry, himself and those with him -- how he went into the house of God, and the loaves of the presentation did eat, which it is not lawful to him to eat, nor to those with him, except to the priests alone?

And if you had known what is: Kindness I will, and not sacrifice -- you had not condemned the blameless.


--

Theft precedes the poor. The poor would not exist, if there had been no theft from God.


Again:

Matthew 21:12, 13

And Jesus entered into the temple of God, and did cast forth all those selling and buying in the temple, and the tables of the money-changers he overturned, and the seats of those selling the doves, and he saith to them, `It hath been written, My house a house of prayer shall be called, but you did make it a den of robbers.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
It is the expressed admonishment of Christian doctrine not to pile up wealth for oneself, or to use it to exploit others. Yet it is the express purpose of capitalism to pile up as wealth for oneself, and then use it to exploit everyone else to gain more. There is no "balance" to be truck, here, that I can see. We either take what we need, and pass the rest on to others, or we take everything we can get and use it to gain control of more. Are you saying that Christians should only keep some of the wealth they acquire, and use it to gain control of only some more?
I help a dying friend to the point I have trouble paying my own bills. I still have my own familial responsibilities however. Starve myself to death and my friend has no one to turn to. God isn't paying her bills. Wealth should be "piled up" so that it can invest in the community. Business owners, large or small, who use their businesses as personal piggy banks aren't doing their job. They are stealing from their own business and the community at large. Capitalism doesn't have to be equated with theft, though it often is used that way. There can be such a thing as socially responsible capitalism.

Taking away all but life's necessities (and in the 21st century, I'd add more things to "necessities" than just food, water, and shelter) will only leave people miserable. The bigots in this country have been conned into thinking their problems come from a multitude of every minority except the jerks who are stiffing them. "Lower-middle middle class" should be the goal, not outright poverty nor obscene wealth. Moderation is the key.

I agree that Jesus wouldn't approve of capitalism, but he bummed off everyone else's dime and used magic to get anything he couldn't afford either way. He doesn't get to lecture people about how to spend wealth. People who contribute do.

that was the idea of the talents parable. everyone comes in empty handed and is lent resources based on their capabilities.
It wasn't really their capabilities, though. They were just the slaves who showed up at the meeting. That some were talented and one was not was irrelevant. The average citizen in the king's kingdom did not have the "privilege" of getting investment funds.

Socialist feudalism didn't do that.
I dunno, the Black Plague evened things out a bit. :)

Captitolism is a means to improve your lot. Unlike socialism which would rather have everything static.
There are plenty of capitalistic businesses in this country who want handouts to maintain a status quo that true capitalism would say they don't deserve.

"But, Congress, we need the bailout because we have to spend billions on top talent in leadership!"
"But you're broke. How talented can they be?"

"But Congress, we need to dig up black rocks because my grandpappy's grandpappy did."
"But you're in the hospital every three minutes because your lungs are black."

"But Congress, we need to dig up black liquid to power homes."
"But only so many plants died millions of years ago and the sun's still got at least a few million years going for it."

"But Congress, we need US tax breaks."
"But you moved your business overseas."

If we were completely honest, we aren't nearly as beholden to capitalism as perhaps we SHOULD be.
 

SinSaber

Member
Keyword: pursuit. The pursuit of perfection is Jesus' command. Here, your idea of what is good, condemns what is good.

Capitalism is means to take ownership (of what is God's) and profit. Profit is the bottom line.

Democratic socialism would be the means to provide basic necessities to everyone, in the least. It is also more efficient. A vote would decide whether to colonize Mars. Or, it would decide whether to invest more effectively in a Cancer cure. Or maybe, whether we invest more in entertainment. The focus of a state, or country finds less division, and the accomplishment of goals becomes more prevalent.

We're Russians given everything? You people just don't realize that a blended society is what works. Look at Japan and Collective Capitolism. Private property but with emphasis on cooperation

Matthew 12:3-4, 7

And he said to them, `Did you not read what David did, when he was hungry, himself and those with him -- how he went into the house of God, and the loaves of the presentation did eat, which it is not lawful to him to eat, nor to those with him, except to the priests alone?

And if you had known what is: Kindness I will, and not sacrifice -- you had not condemned the blameless.


--

Theft precedes the poor. The poor would not exist, if there had been no theft from God.


Again:

Matthew 21:12, 13

And Jesus entered into the temple of God, and did cast forth all those selling and buying in the temple, and the tables of the money-changers he overturned, and the seats of those selling the doves, and he saith to them, `It hath been written, My house a house of prayer shall be called, but you did make it a den of robbers.

They were using the temple as a venue. Christ didn't go into a bazaar and do that

greed is a sin

Luke 12:15

Proverbs 14:31

So what? Capitolism isn't an equation of greed.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
We're Russians given everything? You people just don't realize that a blended society is what works. Look at Japan and Collective Capitolism. Private property but with emphasis on cooperation



They were using the temple as a venue. Christ didn't go into a bazaar and do that

1) That's heavy indoctrination. I say basic necessities, and that registers in your mind as "given everything."

2) That was my second example. It didn't matter where Jesus was located, he said and did things consistently.

3) The logic just isn't connecting. You don't understand that the poor shouldn't exist, in the Christian paradigm. You live comfortably in another paradigm, where the poor are made to exist. What is foreign in this case is anathema.
 

SinSaber

Member
1) That's heavy indoctrination. I say basic necessities, and that registers in your mind as "given everything."

2) That was my second example. It didn't matter where Jesus was located, he said and did things consistently.

3) The logic just isn't connecting. You don't understand that the poor shouldn't exist, in the Christian paradigm. You live comfortably in another paradigm, where the poor are made to exist. What is foreign in this case is anathema.

Then why wasn't it written down.

There is no freedom in socialism. Not only that, it would also require secularism as the state religion. Capitolism gives me freedom to pursue my goals. Socialism would put a giant ball and chain on my ankle and tell me I'm not an individual and just another piece.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Can a christian be a capitalist?

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

John 12:6
He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

First, for clarity:
cap·i·tal·ism
ˈkapədlˌizəm/
noun
  1. an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
Now....why can a Christian not participate in an economy that is controlled by private interests instead of the state? If not, what sort of economy is acceptable to Christianity...theocracy? Socialistic? Communistic? Keep in mind, also, that most governments are not "pure" in their design. In most (all?) countries that use capitalism as their basic economic blueprint, the government does actually regulate trade to varying degrees. There is no purely Capitalist state.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
1) That's heavy indoctrination. I say basic necessities, and that registers in your mind as "given everything."

2) That was my second example. It didn't matter where Jesus was located, he said and did things consistently.

3) The logic just isn't connecting. You don't understand that the poor shouldn't exist, in the Christian paradigm. You live comfortably in another paradigm, where the poor are made to exist. What is foreign in this case is anathema.

Not to argue with your general theme, but didn't Jesus tell at least one man to sell everything he had and give it all away? And didn't he also say to give no thought to tomorrow? That is surely a recipe for poverty.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Then why wasn't it written down.

There is no freedom in socialism. Not only that, it would also require secularism as the state religion. Capitolism gives me freedom to pursue my goals. Socialism would put a giant ball and chain on my ankle and tell me I'm not an individual and just another piece.

Indoctrination.

Most people work the majority of their lives- in jobs and careers that are often monotonous and degrading. There is no true freedom, just the illusion. It's an inside joke, most aren't aware of.

The goal of Democratic Socialism is the satisfaction of basic necessities. That is freeing, when you are truly afforded the right to live and enjoy life.

The resources are there. The technologies to more efficiently harvest resources are all there.

We are at a point in human evolution, where we can live freely and enjoyably. We can cut work hours/days and produce more, through automation. We can create more of the jobs and careers that people actually enjoy, and are interested in. We really don't need to live cookie cutter lifestyles anymore.

-- The people who propagate the idea that Capitalism is freedom, are still attempting to operate a worldwide slave trade. They do so well, as Harriet Tubman saw, that slaves either don't know what they are, or they glory in it.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Not to argue with your general theme, but didn't Jesus tell at least one man to sell everything he had and give it all away? And didn't he also say to give no thought to tomorrow? That is surely a recipe for poverty.

According to your perspective.

You stand in a different place. It was just as confusing for that man. Do you understand?

Read the story. The disciples asked the same question you're asking.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Not to argue with your general theme, but didn't Jesus tell at least one man to sell everything he had and give it all away? And didn't he also say to give no thought to tomorrow? That is surely a recipe for poverty.

that is poverty as individual and not as a member of a community. like a child in a family doesn't really own anything but the family provides for one another; especially for it's more needier members.

judas carried a communal purse. the community as a whole wasn't necessarily in want.

that isn't unheard of in monasteries, convents, or among the amish, mennonites, and hutterites. emphasis is placed on the community being interdependent upon one another. everyone is expected to participate in helping one another too.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
First, for clarity:
cap·i·tal·ism
ˈkapədlˌizəm/
noun
  1. an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
Now....why can a Christian not participate in an economy that is controlled by private interests instead of the state? If not, what sort of economy is acceptable to Christianity...theocracy? Socialistic? Communistic? Keep in mind, also, that most governments are not "pure" in their design. In most (all?) countries that use capitalism as their basic economic blueprint, the government does actually regulate trade to varying degrees. There is no purely Capitalist state.

private interests are not promoted by the bible. the welfare of the community takes precedence. charity begins at home but it doesn't end there, nor does it advocate for the unfettered growth and sole welfare of christianity.

justice doesn't care what ism you construe for attire but it does care how people as a whole are treated. its isn't about a majority, or a minority, its about the welfare of the people, all people. not capitalists, nor christians are a major concern.
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
It wasn't really their capabilities, though. They were just the slaves who showed up at the meeting. That some were talented and one was not was irrelevant. The average citizen in the king's kingdom did not have the "privilege" of getting investment funds.

i disagree because it follow that he who has more, more will be given to be responsible. he who has not, even that will be taken away.

everyone may not have physical assets to offer but everyone has something; such as, service skills. unless, you're in a coma, everyone has the ability to contribute something to the well being of another.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I help a dying friend to the point I have trouble paying my own bills. I still have my own familial responsibilities however. Starve myself to death and my friend has no one to turn to. God isn't paying her bills. Wealth should be "piled up" so that it can invest in the community. Business owners, large or small, who use their businesses as personal piggy banks aren't doing their job. They are stealing from their own business and the community at large. Capitalism doesn't have to be equated with theft, though it often is used that way. There can be such a thing as socially responsible capitalism.
Capitalism is NOT socially responsible. At all. As it's only responsibility is to maximizing the profits returned to capital investor. To make it socially responsible, we would have to infuse it with a substantial degree of socialist ideology, and social control over the business venture being invested in. But then it would not be capitalism, anymore. Capitalism and socialism are both defined by who controls the means (and purpose) of production. And that means that the capital investor either does or does not have that control, and for his own benefit. If he does not, then it's not 'capitalism', anymore. That doesn't mean we've eliminated capital investment. It just means that the investors don't get to have effective control of the business enterprise, and gain all the profit.
Taking away all but life's necessities (and in the 21st century, I'd add more things to "necessities" than just food, water, and shelter) will only leave people miserable.
Actually, that has been found to be untrue. Studies have been done, and even some documentaries filmed, on the question of quantified human happiness relative to industry, technology, and so on. And it turns out that people living in societies WITHOUT all this "stuff" that the wealthier societies like ours think we have to have, are far happier than we are, over all. Seems that what really matters in terms if human happiness is having those basic necessities met, easily, and without a lot of social competition and strife. People who lived in relatively primitive cultures, but on temperate coastlines where they had year round access to a variety of healthy foods without expending a great deal of effort to get them, were by far the happiest among the global human population. Seems people enjoy each others company when they don't have to compete with each other like wild dogs to ensure their own survival.

So much for Darwinian capitalism!
The bigots in this country have been conned into thinking their problems come from a multitude of every minority except the jerks who are stiffing them. "Lower-middle middle class" should be the goal, not outright poverty nor obscene wealth. Moderation is the key.
Turns out your are right. Cooperation, and sharing, makes for a far happier social collective than forcing everyone to compete with each other to see who gets to live like kings and gods while everyone else struggles to survive.
I agree that Jesus wouldn't approve of capitalism, but he bummed off everyone else's dime and used magic to get anything he couldn't afford either way.
He accepted their cooperation and generosity, and he shared what he had to give. Sounds about right to me.
He doesn't get to lecture people about how to spend wealth. People who contribute do.
It seems to me he gave us everything he had to give, even his own life, so that we might see and understand that love and forgiveness, and kindness and generosity, are the real pathway to both our individual and our collective 'salvation'. (That's salvation is from ourselves, by the way.)

As far as I know, he's the very first human to say this loudly and forcibly enough for all humanity to hear, whether they've accepted it or not. I'd say that was a heck of a contribution! And I'm not even a religious Christian!
 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
private interests are not promoted by the bible. the welfare of the community takes precedence. charity begins at home but it doesn't end there, nor does it advocate for the unfettered growth and sole welfare of christianity.

justice doesn't care what ism you construe for attire but it does care how people as a whole are treated. its isn't about a majority, or a minority, its about the welfare of the people, all people. not capitalists, nor christians are a major concern.

So if a Christian lives in a Capitalist society, what do you propose they do?

Edit: The Bible does not advocate for any economic or political system. The oral stories it is derived from were all passed around when only kingdoms existed.
 
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Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
So if a Christian lives in a Capitalist society, what do you propose they do?

Edit: The Bible does not advocate for any economic or political system. The oral stories it is derived from were all passed around when only kingdoms existed.

the amish, mennonite, and hutterite live in a capital society. the salvation army practices inside a capitalist society. many christians live there lives inside a capitalist society. Even the essenes lived among the others who practiced capitalism
 
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