Most women are not feminists

ADigitalArtist · Oct 8, 2017

Enoch07 said:
It's not in my experience. Maybe your just the first level headed one I have come across. /shrug

Would that be an acceptable answer to you if someone on the internet said their only experience with Christians was hell and damnation bigots and homophobes? Because I, a pretty set in my way atheist would say 'I doubt it. Either you haven't made an effort to inquire of the many reasonable Christians you pass every day, or you're so focused on your small circle of echo chamber that you can't.'
I assure you that if you want to look for feminist with my views, you'll find a lot more like me than those who aren't. Especially if you're not looking trough social media, which will happily give you the worst of anything.

If I gave you some book recommendations on feminist history and the people behind the different waves would you be interested?

columbus · Oct 8, 2017

Revoltingest said:
Tis bad form to alienate those would otherwise be allies.

That depends on your goal.
If the goal is to establish your cred as an SJW then it is necessary. You must point out the wrong people and be mean and exclude them.
Tom

Revoltingest · Oct 8, 2017

columbus said:
That depends on your goal.
If the goal is to establish your cred as an SJW then it is necessary. You must point out the wrong people and be mean and exclude them.
Tom

Uh oh....knuckles might be rapped.
I urge caution using the "S" initialism pejoratively in this thread.

Enoch07 · Oct 8, 2017

ADigitalArtist said:
Would that be an acceptable answer to you if someone on the internet said their only experience with Christians was hell and damnation bigots and homophobes? Because I, a pretty set in my way atheist would say 'I doubt it. Either you haven't made an effort to inquire of the many reasonable Christians you pass every day, or you're so focused on your small circle of echo chamber that you can't.'
I assure you that if you want to look for feminist with my views, you'll find a lot more like me than those who aren't. Especially if you're not looking trough social media, which will happily give you the worst of anything.

If I gave you some book recommendations on feminist history and the people behind the different waves would you be interested?

It's not about an acceptable answer. I argue with people all day here who talk about the crusades, OT scripture and other terrible things that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, but yet Christians of today are expected to answer for. So I have no problem holding feminism to that same standard. For the crappy things they do today. Atleast I am not blaming you for something a feminist did a thousand years ago. Just what Sarkeesian (for example) said a couple of years ago, tops! I don't believe all feminist are evil or bad. But let's face it, the vast majority of 3rd wave feminist are atrocious. Which is why only 10-20% of people in general will actually admit to being one.

I don't need to read books on feminism. I already believe men and women are equal, deserve the same rights, and to be treated as equals. But with that comes the burden of actually being an equal. That means no special treatment, no kid gloves, and no exceptions. They are judged on their own merits and how they treat other people. If they want to change how people view them, then they need to change their attitudes and how they treat people.

SomeRandom · Oct 8, 2017

ADigitalArtist said:
*wave* Hi, I'm a self-described third wave feminist who actually reads feminist literature, attends gender studies lectures, and occasionally volunteers with women's crisis centers.
I do not label people feminist if they don't want to be labeled it, or tell them they must be feminist and not know it. I think thats skeezy and there's more to feminism as a set of movements than a one sentence slogan.
And to me it's just like the rest of culture. I call myself a gamer but I wouldn't call anyone who plays games a gamer, unless they wanted to be

*waves back* I agree it is rather skeezy.
And I was generalising. I have been forcefully labelled a feminist all my life simply for being a woman. By other feminists, by society and even by the media to a certain extent. It's like an assumed default position or something. And then when I question something I get the whole "why are so critical of feminism when you're a feminist? You are a feminist, right?"
So I tend to rebel on principle alone, rather than not being a feminist. I am a feminist, probably not a third waver, but still.

ADigitalArtist · Oct 8, 2017

SomeRandom said:
*waves back* I agree it is rather skeezy.
And I was generalising. I have been forcefully labelled a feminist all my life simply for being a woman. By other feminists, by society and even by the media to a certain extent. It's like an assumed default position or something. And then when I question something I get the whole "why are so critical of feminism when you're a feminist? You are a feminist, right?"
So I tend to rebel on principle alone, rather than not being a feminist. I am a feminist, probably not a third waver, but still.

Oh man, feminists are critical of other feminists all the time! They have been ever since first wavers and pre first wavers argued if those rights for women should extend to black women. 3rd wave does have more nebulous topics than earlier incarnations but none of these gals should be under the impression that feminism has ever had a united front.

ADigitalArtist · Oct 8, 2017

Enoch07 said:
It's not about an acceptable answer. I argue with people all day here who talk about the crusades, OT scripture and other terrible things that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, but yet Christians of today are expected to answer for. So I have no problem holding feminism to that same standard. For the crappy things they do today. Atleast I am not blaming you for something a feminist did a thousand years ago. Just what Sarkeesian (for example) said a couple of years ago, tops! I don't believe all feminist are evil or bad. But let's face it, the vast majority of 3rd wave feminist are atrocious. Which is why only 10-20% of people in general will actually admit to being one.

I don't need to read books on feminism. I already believe men and women are equal, deserve the same rights, and to be treated as equals. But with that comes the burden of actually being an equal. That means no special treatment, no kid gloves, and no exceptions. They are judged on their own merits and how they treat other people. If they want to change how people view them, then they need to change their attitudes and how they treat people.

This (situation, not you, personally) is really sad to me. Not only because it's still 'two wrongs make a right,/do as I say not as I do' but because the vast majority of self described feminists are Christians. So it's not like you're 'getting back at them.' You don't know what even 10 to 20 percent of them say but you're convinced it's something else, because of a 6 year obsession with an internet personality who is nowhere near extreme in feminist history and has no active involvement in any of the mover and shaker 3rd wave foundations socially, politically or academically.
I genuinely feel bad that you have as narrow view of modern 3rd wavs feminists as some ******* atheists do of Christians...and that you're okay with that.

But I can't change that if you're not interested in looking. So you do you.

SomeRandom · Oct 8, 2017

ADigitalArtist said:
Oh man, feminists are critical of other feminists all the time! They have been ever since first wavers and pre first wavers argued if those rights for women should extend to black women. 3rd wave does have more nebulous topics than earlier incarnations but none of these gals should be under the impression that feminism has ever had a united front.

Right!? As if feminists agree.
Hence my confusion at said scolding of criticism. It's just weird.

Epic Beard Man · Oct 8, 2017

ADigitalArtist said:
What does this have to do with my post though?
I should expand, unlike the gendered stereotype that women are materialist, sexual assault statistics isn't. Women are by orders of magnitude more likely to be sexually assaulted by men, even if you were to compare anonymous statistics of those who feel like they can't report due to ridicule.
With that said, is it more complicated than 'just men'? Hell yes. Is that site abrasive and alienating? Yep, I don't support it and I would do it differently. Do I think expectation on masculinity at least contributes to the prevalence of what some call rape culture? Also, yes. And flyers like those won't help much addressing it.

I quoted your post to draw your attention, not necessarily address it. My approach of materialistic has to do with the stereotype that women at least western women, are more concern about a man's financial status as opposed to his personality which if you want to get deep down to it, could be argued from a biopsychology standpoint. But, that is neither here nor there, and yes, I'm not comparing the two of materialism and sexual assault but more so attaching the negative stereotypical phrase associated with gender.

Maponos · Oct 13, 2017

Feminism is cancerous and divisive. What little positive gains it has made have been eclipsed by its mountain of negativity.

crossfire · Oct 13, 2017

Maponos said:
Feminism is cancerous and divisive. What little positive gains it has made have been eclipsed by its mountain of negativity.

What sort of negativity are you referring to? Examples?

Maponos · Oct 13, 2017

crossfire said:
What sort of negativity are you referring to? Examples?

First and foremost, that would take too long to explain so I will highlight the things that concern me the most.

The two views of sex they have: all sex is good and you should '**** it up' as they say, or they have a nigh puritanical view of sex and will say that it's degrading for women.
The post-modern mental malaise that permeates it through and through (that includes the destruction of gender roles, what constitutes art, etc).
The all around hatred or apathy towards men they have. You cannot simply spout the dictionary definition of feminism in regards to this.

Jesster · Oct 13, 2017

I'm a feminist and I quite like men. Maybe feminists just don't like you.

Revoltingest · Oct 13, 2017

Maponos said:
First and foremost, that would take too long to explain so I will highlight the things that concern me the most.

The two views of sex they have: all sex is good and you should '**** it up' as they say, or they have a nigh puritanical view of sex and will say that it's degrading for women.

The post-modern mental malaise that permeates it through and through (that includes the destruction of gender roles, what constitutes art, etc).

The all around hatred or apathy towards men they have. You cannot simply spout the dictionary definition of feminism in regards to this.

Remember that there are (at my last count) a couple dozen kinds of feminism to be found.
They can differ greatly in the ways which concern you....no hatred, no destruction of gender
roles (which can be voluntarily assented to), something in between the 2 pictures of sex
you've painted. It would pay to find a more precise way to describe the elements you criticize.

crossfire · Oct 13, 2017

Maponos said:
First and foremost, that would take too long to explain so I will highlight the things that concern me the most.

The two views of sex they have: all sex is good and you should '**** it up' as they say, or they have a nigh puritanical view of sex and will say that it's degrading for women.

What consenting adults do in private is none of my business.

The post-modern mental malaise that permeates it through and through (that includes the destruction of gender roles, what constitutes art, etc).

Of all of the phrases one could use to accurately describe feminists, I don't think mental malaise is one of them. Your mileage may vary. You haven't mentioned anything to justify calling feminism cancerous and divisive, either.

The all around hatred or apathy towards men they have. You cannot simply spout the dictionary definition of feminism in regards to this.

I don't hate men.

Maponos · Oct 14, 2017

Jesster said:
I'm a feminist and I quite like men. Maybe feminists just don't like you.

crossfire said:
What consenting adults do in private is none of my business.

Of all of the phrases one could use to accurately describe feminists, I don't think mental malaise is one of them. Your mileage may vary. You haven't mentioned anything to justify calling feminism cancerous and divisive, either.

I don't hate men.

^^^

Revoltingest said:
Remember that there are (at my last count) a couple dozen kinds of feminism to be found.
They can differ greatly in the ways which concern you....no hatred, no destruction of gender
roles (which can be voluntarily assented to), something in between the 2 pictures of sex
you've painted. It would pay to find a more precise way to describe the elements you criticize.

The above is a rather good example of part of the problem with feminism. They will typically deny all negative associations or resort to the 'not I' argument. It's all meaningless.

Of course there are many branches of feminism, and most, if not all of them, are gangrenous.

This is a rather damning documentary on feminism.

Also, a bonus video:

crossfire · Oct 14, 2017

Maponos said:
^^^

The above is a rather good example of part of the problem with feminism. They will typically deny all negative associations or resort to the 'not I' argument. It's all meaningless.

So the propaganda about "feminism" is meaningful, whereas individual feminists are meaningless?

Are all of these individual feminists lying? Are only those who fit into your preconceived propaganda meaningful? If this is the case, then you have quite a way of cherry-picking reality.

This is a rather damning documentary on feminism.

Ahh, so you are all about the propaganda, and not the evidence presented by the individuals...

Revoltingest · Oct 14, 2017

Maponos said:
The above is a rather good example of part of the problem with feminism. They will typically deny all negative associations or resort to the 'not I' argument. It's all meaningless.

Odd....I've incurred the wrath of feminists for criticizing the dysfunctional aspects & members.
I was only encouraging you to consider the positive ones.

Of course there are many branches of feminism, and most, if not all of them, are gangrenous.

Only "most"?
Woo hoo....this means that you're coming on board!

Stevicus · Oct 14, 2017

Revoltingest said:
Odd....I've incurred the wrath of feminists for criticizing the dysfunctional aspects & members.
I was only encouraging you to consider the positive ones.

Only "most"?
Woo hoo....this means that you're coming on board!

You're not the only one incurring their wrath.

The Women's March Invited Bernie Sanders. Then the Trouble Started

Bernie Sanders speech at Women's Convention prompts backlash - CNNPolitics

he 35-year-old, who is a community organizer from Austin, Texas, said she is not planning on attending the convention because of scheduling conflicts; though she did participate in the March in January.

"The Women's March nucleus has been such a woman-led movement," she said. But the Sanders news "seems like an odd departure from that at a critical time."

Others echoed this view, and questioned why a man is the opening-night speaker. The convention's official theme is "Reclaiming Our Time," inspired by the viral phrase Rep. Maxine Waters' repeated to Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin in August. Waters will also speak at the convention.

12 Oct
Women's March

✔@womensmarch
We are so excited to have @SenSanders join us at the #WomensConvention October 27-29th in Detroit! https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/10/12/bernie-sanders-speech-womens-convention/756825001/ …

Follow
Jean Grey 2017 @JeanGrey80
Sorry. I'm not attending a women's convention where the opening night speaker isn't a woman. Perhaps consider these choices next time. pic.twitter.com/HiVpQ3I78n

6:15 AM - Oct 12, 2017

"Sorry. I'm not attending a women's convention where the opening night speaker isn't a woman," one Twitter user wrote, sharing a photo collage of Sens. Elizabeth Warren, Kamala Harris and Amy Klobuchar. "Perhaps consider these choices next time."

This is where the mixed messages come in that Maponos might be referring to. Women say they want men to help out their cause. I remember that famous speech by Emma Watson where she was putting out a call to men for support. But yet, when men want to support them, they say "No, we won't attend if the speaker is a man." It's more of the same kind of stuff that split the party in the last election.

Revoltingest · Oct 14, 2017

Stevicus said:
You're not the only one incurring their wrath.

The Women's March Invited Bernie Sanders. Then the Trouble Started

Bernie Sanders speech at Women's Convention prompts backlash - CNNPolitics

This is where the mixed messages come in that Maponos might be referring to. Women say they want men to help out their cause. I remember that famous speech by Emma Watson where she was putting out a call to men for support. But yet, when men want to support them, they say "No, we won't attend if the speaker is a man." It's more of the same kind of stuff that split the party in the last election.

The trick is to see feminists....all groups of people as individuals.

Most women are not feminists

Would you consider yourself a feminist?

Yes

No

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