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Lucifer. is there a Devil?

Father

Devourer of Truth
Good evening. this is a discussion about the verse in the Old testament mentioning Lucifer by name.

the only verse stating Lucifer that I know of. or at least originally states him by name.

Isiah 14:12-17
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the highest.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

“Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’

this holds some problems though. "I will ascend into heaven" he is already in heaven. the highest sphere of heaven. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God" that does not really come across as ascending God just the stars who are sometimes referred to as Angels.
"I will also sit on the mount of the congregation" reinforcing the angels part.
"on the farthest sides of the north" Lucifer is referred to as Prince of the East. what does north have to do with anything?

"yet you shall be brought down to Sheol" Sheol is not Hell. the Jews don't believe in Hell. Sheol is where all dead go. it's not Good or Evil it's just a place in the ground where mortals go. Heaven at the time was just thought of as where God and Angels reside. so why would an Angel be thrown into the place of the Human Dead?

this verse itself. seems more like it is referring to a Human than a celestial being. and in fact probably a King at the time for not being Holy. we see this in the bible all the time. David. Solomon. it seems every king ends up screwing up and getting some verses about there screw ups until everyone forgets about it a few books later and mentions them as the most Holy.

the backing of this would be the original use of the word satan or devil. they are verbs not names first and foremost. meaning Adversary and accuser. but God in the old testament had many. anyone who went against him was considered an Adversary in the sense. and so the words satan and devil are left more so open as a title than a Name. there is a verse also

Numbers 22::21-39 " I won't list the full story just this part.
1 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his Donkey, and went with the princes of Moab.

22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his Donkey, and his two servants were with him."

"Angel of the Lord stood in the way for an Adversary against him."

An adversary in Hebrew being satan. as its a verb. why would the Christian Lucifer work on Gods behalf? unless again there is no Lucifer and the satan just means Adversary and can be designated to many.
if you use what most Christians love to throw at others "out of context" the entire story they use to back the existence of Lucifer the Seraph the Highest archangel the fallen one. is all out of context.

especially if you just look at the point I made about the Verse Isiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
if such is the case it sort of destroy's the entirty or atleast majorty of christanity. there is no Adversary to fight. other than needing Jesus for the way. revelations is uneeded. as everything is just in occordance and allowed by the Abrahamic God.

I mean I love the character Lucifer as a character its very interesting I would advise if you have time to read the Comic Lucifer by DC and Vertigo it's quite good.

but everything I see historically and contextually wise goes against him being a biblical character other than the new testament where the story is a bit more intertwined.

Your thoughts on this?
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
satan is the first example of racism against mankind. What is there to benefit from him ? He wants you to love him more than love god.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
You are forgetting that Satan goes by many names. Lucifer was his angelic name. Here is a list of some of his other names and titles.

Names for the DEVIL

This list left out several, one glaring omission is the King of Tyre which was another title Satan held.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
He was Lucifer before he fell from grace. After that he is referred to as Satan, the devil, the adversary of mankind. Satan was a high ranking angel before he sinned.
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
You are forgetting that Satan goes by many names. Lucifer was his angelic name. Here is a list of some of his other names and titles.

Names for the DEVIL

This list left out several, one glaring omission is the King of Tyre which was another title Satan held.

that's the saying "goes by many names" now tell me who first said that?

also, Lucifer is Latin and seems to have no Hebrew origin. while all angelic names are Hebrew.
see its not really Satan holding titles its Satan is a title. like, Lord. Lord is not the name of God nor is God. both are titles but while both are clearly bored by the same Being there is many flaws and gaps in a Lucifer even existing let alone pairing him to every satan or devil or dragon or serpent in the bible. if you recall the serpent that was supposedly controlled by Satan was bound to that form by God if that serpent was Lucifer he is nothing more than a garden snake. but as the verse with the talking donkey, the serpent could of easily just been a magic talking serpent and a one-off. like that donkey.

which is why I argue his nonexistent in the old testament. I don't believe any of this is real but within the book like reading harry potter, there is no Lucifer. Lucifer was just a construct made long after the bible was written probably by the same editors who made the Trinity an official thing. and the verse of the morningstar applying to a long-dead King who misbehaved and annoyed God. which if you read the bible. happens all the time. every King of Israel it seems annoys God at one point
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
He was Lucifer before he fell from grace. After that he is referred to as Satan, the devil, the adversary of mankind. Satan was a high ranking angel before he sinned.
And yet there is no mention of that fall. the verse I gave here better applies to a human King. the Jews agree also. they wrote the book. the Muslims agree the only ones who seem to think that this verse is pre-genesis and that there is a main antagonist besides God in the bible is the Christians. and it makes sense seeing as its entire conversion method is punishment or reward.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
And yet there is no mention of that fall. the verse I gave here better applies to a human King. the Jews agree also. they wrote the book. the Muslims agree the only ones who seem to think that this verse is pre-genesis and that there is a main antagonist besides God in the bible is the Christians. and it makes sense seeing as its entire conversion method is punishment or reward.

Have you read the New Testament?
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
Satan was never an angel, he has free will. He was the son of the first being that existed on earth, called the jinn. Angels don't have free will. They are creatures of command. Ibliss son of jan, jan was the first jin that existed.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Satan was never an angel, he has free will. He was the son of the first being that existed on earth, called the jinn. Angels don't have free will. They are creatures of command. Ibliss son of jan, jan was the first jin that existed.

I don't recall reading that in the Bible.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
that's the saying "goes by many names" now tell me who first said that?

also, Lucifer is Latin and seems to have no Hebrew origin. while all angelic names are Hebrew.
see its not really Satan holding titles its Satan is a title. like, Lord. Lord is not the name of God nor is God. both are titles but while both are clearly bored by the same Being there is many flaws and gaps in a Lucifer even existing let alone pairing him to every satan or devil or dragon or serpent in the bible. if you recall the serpent that was supposedly controlled by Satan was bound to that form by God if that serpent was Lucifer he is nothing more than a garden snake. but as the verse with the talking donkey, the serpent could of easily just been a magic talking serpent and a one-off. like that donkey.

which is why I argue his nonexistent in the old testament. I don't believe any of this is real but within the book like reading harry potter, there is no Lucifer. Lucifer was just a construct made long after the bible was written probably by the same editors who made the Trinity an official thing. and the verse of the morningstar applying to a long-dead King who misbehaved and annoyed God. which if you read the bible. happens all the time. every King of Israel it seems annoys God at one point

He is the deceiver. Using different names, forms and identities is his shtick.

Are you familiar with the idea of Subversion - Wikipedia?

If he just walked around calling himself Lucifer he couldn't trick people now could he? He would be rejected more times than not if he was honest about his identity.

I think your letting a t.v./comic book character influence your ideas the topic. Which who knows may be the whole purpose, to deceive you.
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
Satan was never an angel, he has free will. He was the son of the first being that existed on earth, called the jinn. Angels don't have free will. They are creatures of command. Ibliss son of jan, jan was the first jin that existed.
see while that is completely unique to Islam probably due to the pagan religions of the area mixing with the Judaic one's

it at least makes more rational sense behind this "Satan" if it does biblically exist.

I respect that.
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
I don't recall reading that in the Bible.

Would god allow an angel to rebel against him ? God has the power to just not make him exist. Does he need him ? Satan asked god for respite to show him that the sons of man will be disobedient forever. And god told him otherwise.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Would god allow an angel to rebel against him ? God has the power to just not make him exist. Does he need him ? Satan asked god for respite to show him that the sons of man will be disobedient forever. And god told him otherwise.

Is that in the Bible?
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
Would god allow an angel to rebel against him ? God has the power to just not make him exist. Does he need him ? Satan asked god for respite to show him that the sons of man will be disobedient forever. And god told him otherwise.
Oh, my God

I am not even going to argue this anymore I think you are doing a better job of it. that reasoning was perfect.
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
When adam was in heaven with eve, it wasn't even an apple that they ate. Why would an apple make you fall from grace ? it wasn't an apple. It was a plant, it looked like wheat, satan said to them that god was hiding immortality from them. And they should eat this plant.

That plant gave adam and eve tremendous pain and god had to create relief for adam and eve, because they ate from it, they needed relief, they defecated in heaven. Heaven is holy. And because heaven is holy, and you can't defecate in heaven, god cast them to earth because god changed their bodies when he relieved them.

He separated adam and eve for 40 years. And inspired them to meet each other again. So for 40 years they lived separately on this planet, and had to learn everything for themselves.
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
When adam was in heaven with eve, it wasn't even an apple that they ate. Why would an apple make you fall from grace ? it wasn't an apple. It was a plant, it looked like wheat, satan said to them that god was hiding immortality from them. And they should eat this plant.

That plant gave adam and eve tremendous pain and god had to create relief for adam and eve, because they ate from it, they needed relief, they defecated in heaven. Heaven is holy. And because heaven is holy, and you can't defecate in heaven, god cast them to earth because god changed their bodies when he relieved them.

He separated adam and eve for 40 years. And inspired them to meet each other again. So for 40 years they lived separately on this planet, and had to learn everything for themselves.
k. now that. that's has a bunch of flaws.

God made the plant. knew its side effects. knew they would defecate after eating the plant. he is omniscient knowing what Satan would do. and let it happen. and so Adam and Eve are not in the wrong. they are victims of happenstance.
also, the bible does never mention an apple but it mentions eating from a tree, trees bear fruit. the artists who drew the seen thought of apple's that's why. but it never stated even in the oldest known versions of the bible. that it was a plant, that looked like wheat.
also, he needed to change their forms to rid them of pain? he is omnipotent not bound by logic or reason he could snap his fingers and fix the problem. he would not even need to snap.

that story. while the satan one makes a bit more sense. that story is even more flawed than the biblical version.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
When adam was in heaven with eve, it wasn't even an apple that they ate. Why would an apple make you fall from grace ? it wasn't an apple. It was a plant, it looked like wheat, satan said to them that god was hiding immortality from them. And they should eat this plant.

That plant gave adam and eve tremendous pain and god had to create relief for adam and eve, because they ate from it, they needed relief, they defecated in heaven. Heaven is holy. And because heaven is holy, and you can't defecate in heaven, god cast them to earth because god changed their bodies when he relieved them.

He separated adam and eve for 40 years. And inspired them to meet each other again. So for 40 years they lived separately on this planet, and had to learn everything for themselves.

Is that in the Quran?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
When adam was in heaven with eve, it wasn't even an apple that they ate. Why would an apple make you fall from grace ? it wasn't an apple. It was a plant, it looked like wheat, satan said to them that god was hiding immortality from them. And they should eat this plant.

That plant gave adam and eve tremendous pain and god had to create relief for adam and eve, because they ate from it, they needed relief, they defecated in heaven. Heaven is holy. And because heaven is holy, and you can't defecate in heaven, god cast them to earth because god changed their bodies when he relieved them.

He separated adam and eve for 40 years. And inspired them to meet each other again. So for 40 years they lived separately on this planet, and had to learn everything for themselves.

Is this a story you wrote for entertainment?

First, God created Adam out of the dust of the earth. Did God create him and then take him to heaven?

Second, God planted a TREE, wheat doesn't grow on a tree, you know that, right? So an apple can't make one fall from grace, but something that looks like wheat can?

Third, God created Eve out of Adams rib, and they were together since, nor record of them being separated. Where do you get they were separated for 40 years?

Fourth, to be in heaven, one must have a spiritual body, flesh and blood can not exist in heaven. How does a spirit defecate? Do spirits even eat?
 

MohammadPali

Active Member
k. now that. that's has a bunch of flaws.

God made the plant. knew its side effects. knew they would defecate after eating the plant. he is omniscient knowing what Satan would do. and let it happen. and so Adam and Eve are not in the wrong. they are victims of happenstance.
also, the bible does never mention an apple but it mentions eating from a tree, trees bear fruit. the artists who drew the seen thought of apple's that's why. but it never stated even in the oldest known versions of the bible. that it was a plant, that looked like wheat.
also, he needed to change their forms to rid them of pain? he is omnipotent not bound by logic or reason he could snap his fingers and fix the problem. he would not even need to snap.

that story. while the satan one makes a bit more sense. that story is even more flawed than the biblical version.


Not like that, when Iblis was in the heavens, he was there because he was pious, and he was from amongst the best of the jinn who occupied or settled on earth. So god raised him up to the lowest level where angels congregate. He had special status.

When god was creating and molding adam, he had no soul in him, and iblis saw adams mold, and didn't understand what this mold was about. He was obsessed with what god was doing. He even said to himself, that god has a plan for this mold, who happened to be adam.

Anyway, when god said to the angels, I will send a vice-regent to earth, he was replacing the jinn entirely. This infuriated iblis, why would god do this ? And the reason why he did this was because the jinn on earth fought massive wars with each other, and destroyed their own civilizations. Iblis was from the jin. The angels also asked god, are you going to create a creature that sheds blood ? Meaning like the jinn ? fighting wars and causing deception with one another etc ? God said I know what you don't know.

So god created another creature the humans, adam being the first. When god told the angels to prostrate to adam, they did it in respect that hes a new creature, and he will be guided through god. And god taught adam all the names of the angels.

Eventually being in heaven, adam was lonely. The angels are not like humans where they have free will, he can talk with them, but they don't converse like humans. They are creatures of command sort of like robots. God created eve. And thats how they started.

Satan happened to be where the angels prostrated towards adam, and he didn't. He wasn't an angel, but he was one amongst them in respect. So when god commanded everyone there to prostrate, he also meant ibliss too. Ibliss didn't. God asked why ? Ibliss said I am made from fire, and this is made from dirt, why would you want me to prostrate to that dear lord ? this is a animal, why would I need too ? God was very angry and condemned him. But gave him respite. Iblis said lord, give me respite till the day of judgement so I can show you they are not worthy creatures. God granted him that.

The first test of obedience from mankind is when adam and eve ate from the plant. That was the test, god had known already what was going to happen. Its not that he allowed it to happen. It was going to happen no matter what.
 
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