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Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said..You have put the cart before the horse in your understanding here.He is absoluutely not calling Isreal Spiritual Sodom. He is clearly stating they have become LIKE Sodom in their spiritual whoredom.


God didn’t say they have become like Sodom. No, they are spiritually called Sodom.

Revelation 11:8 the great city (Jerusalem), which spiritually is called Sodom.



truth101 said..Now you say Sodom was not not Judahs's sister and then you quote one of many that say Sodom is Jersusalems sister. These verses are being spoken to Jerusalem.

Historical Sodom is not Judah’s sister and has never been.
However Israel (10 northern tribes) which spiritually is called Sodom, is Judah’s sister.


truth101 said..These verses are being spoken to Jerusalem.

You’re right these verse are being spoken to Jerusalem, Therefore, the only sister that is in view here is Israel (10 northern tribes), which spiritually is called Sodom


truth101 said..The bible has clearly spoken on the subject and placed everything into context. You have taken it out of context,


The Bible has clearly spoken that the context is the sisters of Judah and Judah themselves. And the only way to rightly divide the truth is to let God define to us who the sister of Judah is, and We know without a doubt that Israel (10 northern tribes) was Judah’s sister, which then God beautiful defines for us in two other books of the bible that Israel is spiritually called Sodom, So the whole of spiritually has not been broken.



truth101 said.. added your theory of eternal punishment to those promised restoration. You have insisted that God is calling isreal Spiritual Sodom and has not contrasted them in comparison with Sodom but has now just renamed them Sodom.

The Bible gave us is own this definition in Revelation 11:8 the great city (Jerusalem), which spiritually is called Sodom. I haven’t renamed them, The Bible tells us that they are spiritually called Sodom. And yes, they are like the Sodom that God found none righteous in, and is ripe for his judgment to begin.




truth101 said..With your theology you make God out to be a respecter of persons since even though Jerusalem were more disobedient that the Sodmites He "nevertheless remembers His covanent" with them and has mercy on them,

Only the remnant of Israel that never bowed the kneel to Baal, The rest of Israel will be destroyed just like it happen in 587 B.C. God wiped them out and a few were saved (representing the remnant that God had plan to saved) The historical destruction coincides perfectly with the spiritual destruction of Israel. They will receive the greater damnation. .



truth101 said.. while He destroys the rest of Isreal in eternal torment? Not to mention Sodom was not as disobedient as Isreal and they see no mercy from God? Clearly portraying God as a respector of persons, an unjust one to boot.

God never plan to save any of the inhabitants of that ancient historical city of Ruins called Sodom.
Abraham pleaded to God, to spare the city. God’s answer was made clear to all that has ears to hear and eyes to see, that the smoke of their torment will continue for ever and ever at the resurrection of damnation.

truth101 said..You say you were not trying to prove eternal torment from these verses. The reason it because it is not mentioned here so you have incorporated it into your scholarship of these verses which has given you a false understanding of these verses. Yes, the promise of restoration came at the cross but you have again insisted on eternal torment for all but the spiritual Jew. The spiritual Jew has not been established yet in these verses. I understand what you are saying concerning the spiritual Jew being saved but you cannot seperate the spiritual Jew from the literal Jew in these passages because the passages in the old testament are dealing with the whole nation of Isreal and their sisters Sodom and Samaria.

You don’t seem to understand that Ezekiel is pronouncing the destruction of Judah by the Babylonians in the year 587 B.C. and the only sisters of Judah at this time was the (10 northern tribes) Israel that was already destroyed by God in the 709 B.C. by the Assyrians. Which God spiritually calls them Sodom. And there was a remnant from that destruction that were saved historically and these are the chosen of God that later would be restored.




 

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said..The promise is to the literal Isreal in these passages since the new dispensation has not yet come. God has dealt with Isreal accordingly in the old dispensation and in the new dispensation He has turned
from Isreal and began dealing with the gentiles (rest of the world).

2Cor. 1:20 For all the promises of God in him (Christ) are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Gal. 3:17 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The promises were made to Christ he is the Israel of God. (The prince of God). And the blessing is for Christ’s children.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Christ is the KING OF THE JEWS. Christ was a Jew, and all of his children that were begotten of him are the true Jews that were circumcised in the heart and not by the letter. Whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and they are they, which testify of me. (Christ). John 5:39

Ancient Israel was just an example or shadow and not the very image. In Christ are we made heirs of the Kingdom of God. We become citizens of the New Jerusalem because we have become spiritually the Israel that God had always come to save. These are the lost sheep of the house of Israel that Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost.
HIS name shall be called Jesus because HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins. Matthews 1:21
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Sounds anti-Semitic and religious intolerant to me.

In Gal. 3:17, it also make sound like God is an oathbreaker too, like the Norse god Odin.

Does the "One God" means "One-eyed God"?

Sorry, but I never like Paul. He was bigot, when he persecuted against the Christians, but his letters make him a bigot against his fellow-Jews.

In Gal. 3:17, is that his personal view, or is that really God's view.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
>Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

More the latter than the former, apparently.

The Baha'i scriptures make it clear that while hell (spiritual separation from God) does exist, this condition is temporary, and God, through His Mercy, will eventually assist everyone to draw nearer to Him....

Best,

Bruce
 

Truth101

Member
bibleonly said:
truth101 said..The promise is to the literal Isreal in these passages since the new dispensation has not yet come. God has dealt with Isreal accordingly in the old dispensation and in the new dispensation He has turned
from Isreal and began dealing with the gentiles (rest of the world).

2Cor. 1:20 For all the promises of God in him (Christ) are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Gal. 3:17 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The promises were made to Christ he is the Israel of God. (The prince of God). And the blessing is for Christ’s children.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling; One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Christ is the KING OF THE JEWS. Christ was a Jew, and all of his children that were begotten of him are the true Jews that were circumcised in the heart and not by the letter. Whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and they are they, which testify of me. (Christ). John 5:39

Ancient Israel was just an example or shadow and not the very image. In Christ are we made heirs of the Kingdom of God. We become citizens of the New Jerusalem because we have become spiritually the Israel that God had always come to save. These are the lost sheep of the house of Israel that Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost.
HIS name shall be called Jesus because HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins. Matthews 1:21
Bibleonly, I will be replying to your post some time tomorrow. I have been working for the last week and I have tomorrow off. I just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you. I just havent had time to reply.

God Bless, Dave
 

Bick

Member
HI, Bick here. Some good info listed, Dave. With the use of a concordnce, a lexicon, good Bible dictionary, and other tools, much confusion about such subjects can be cleared up.

You pointed it out, Dave, that for some reason the translators used "hell" 31 times for "sheol" in the Hebrew. I agree, "sheol" could be "grave" in most every place. Actually "the unseen" would be almost as good.

And in Acts 2:27, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we know that "Hades" is the equivalent of "sheol", for Psalms 16:10 is quoted.

And, while "grave" could be used for "Hades" in some places, IMO, "the unseen" would be my choice in the others. The word "Hades" occurs 11 times in the NT.

It is the word "geenna" Gk, translated 12 times as "hell" in most English versions, which has had the greatest influence of "a burning firey place of torment". But, info from a good commentary, tells us that "geenna", the Greek word, for "Gehenna" in the Heb., was, in our Lord's day, a valley outside the southern wall of Jerusalem, where the refuse of the city was dumped and constantly burning for purification, and to lesson the odor. Hence, geenna, was spoken of as the fires of destruction, associated with the judgement of God.

But, we must remember, geenna was a literal place. Not some place that was in the "middle of the earth" as some theologians make it. And in Jesus day, the worst sentence one could get from the Sanhedren (the governing body of Israel) was to be stoned to death and the body cast into geenna, given no burial. And in geenna, the unburned refuse and bodies were feeding the worms.

Jesus preached about such judgement, which could occur then and, IMO, will occur in His coming kingdom on earth when Jerusalem will be restored. See Matt. 5:21-30

Bye for now, Bick
 

Truth101

Member
Bibleonly,

I have given this much thought as to the spiritual signifigance of our discussion. We are talking in circles to each other and getting nowhere so the best thing is to leave this and move on. My reason is, although I am in agreement with you on most of this, I disagree with your implementing Sodom is not in view here. In these verses jerusalem is compared to Sodom (ancient destroyed) and it is not until the new testament that God uses the term "spiritually called Sodom".

To pursue this point any further would just hinder any progress we may have by moving on.

I agree that the spiritual Jew who are spiritually circumsised are reserved for the Kingdom but my problem is with your insistant conlusion of eternal torment for the rest. Do you not understand that all those destined for the kingdom recieve their place merely because of the mercy and grace of God? And if so you also have to understand that those who recieve His wrath never recieved His mercy or grace throughout their lives. They were not given eyes to see and ears to hear as those destined for the kingdom were. All truth is given by inspiration of God. All understanding is given by God. All spiritual sight is given by God. If He does not give it then you do not recieve it hence "it is not by works, lest any man should boast".

Since you clarified that you do not believe man has freewill than how can you without it justify your belief in eternal torment? If man is a product of their habitation and upbringing how do you justify eternal punishment over remedial temporary correction? You see if man is in subjection to the will of God and God heals them through a temporary means of punishment than He is justified for His actions but if He makes them the way they are then sends them to be tormented forever and ever and ever than He is unjustified in His actions and He becomes a respecter of persons not to mention many other problems we could speak on which this view horribly disfigures His character.

I'll leave you with that for now.
God bless, Dave
 

bibleonly

Member
Truth101 said:… I agree that the spiritual Jew who are spiritually circumsised are reserved for the Kingdom but my problem is with your insistant conlusion of eternal torment for the rest.
Do you not understand that all those destined for the kingdom recieve their place merely because of the mercy and grace of God?

I do understand that those destined to the kingdom are the true Jews and will enter into the New Jerusalem and it was by the mercy and grace of the God. No work or merit on the part of any of the elect, but by the atonement of the Lamb of God, (Jesus the Christ) and him alone,

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other; For there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

Truth101 said:… And if so you also have to understand that those who recieve His wrath never recieved His mercy or grace throughout their lives. They were not given eyes to see and ears to hear as those destined for the kingdom were

First of all, what do you mean by the wrath of God?
 

Truth101

Member
Truth101 said:… I agree that the spiritual Jew who are spiritually circumsised are reserved for the Kingdom but my problem is with your insistant conlusion of eternal torment for the rest.
Do you not understand that all those destined for the kingdom recieve their place merely because of the mercy and grace of God?

I do understand that those destined to the kingdom are the true Jews and will enter into the New Jerusalem and it was by the mercy and grace of the God. No work or merit on the part of any of the elect, but by the atonement of the Lamb of God, (Jesus the Christ) and him alone,

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other; For there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.
I also agree that it is by no other name but Christ whereby we MUST be saved but what I am tryign to show you in scripture is that there some reserved for the kingdom and they have the gift of the holy spirit to guide them and lead them into all truth hence, given eyes to see and ears to hear and they do believe because of this. This is the mercy and grace of God. All the rest do not recieve this gift of the spirit but they do have salvation. It will be through the fire that these nonelect will be cleansed. They do not enter the kingdom because the Lord out of His own desire has not predestinated them for the kingdom. The kingdom age is not the finality of salvation, it is merely another age God has purposed for His own desire. After the kingdom age is when all are tried by fire (this is the lake of fire). This also comes to an end when all are washed clean in through it. It is only because of the work of the cross that this can be done. These conclusions do not negate the truth that we cannot be saved through any other name other than Jesus but enforce it. It is through the fire that all will come to the knowledge of the truth. It is because of Christ that few are saved through mercy and grace while the many are saved through wrath but in the end it is ultimately through Christ whereby all are saved. This is how we have assurance of salvation.

Truth101 said:… And if so you also have to understand that those who recieve His wrath never recieved His mercy or grace throughout their lives. They were not given eyes to see and ears to hear as those destined for the kingdom were

First of all, what do you mean by the wrath of God?
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will havemercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (These are predestinated to destruction, they have no choice)
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,(these were predestinated for glory in the kingdom age. They also have no choice. It is merely by the grace of God)

The wrath is experienced through the fire (God is the consumming fire) which will consume away all unrighteousness in those who were prepared for the wrath of God before the foundation of the world just as those who where prepared for glory before the foundation of the world. It is God who makes us who we are.
This fits in line with all other scripture. All was decided before all was created. All were destined for glory or wrath.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day(the day of wrath) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's workshallbe burned, heshall suffer loss: but hehimselfshallbesaved; yet so as by fire.


This is what its all about. It's not about us at all, in any way shape or form. It is all about God and His pleasure. It seems like foolishness to the natural man but to those who have been given the spirit understand but only by the grace of God do they recieve this understanding. If someones heart is hardened it is because God has heardened it. This is junst the way God ordained it. Theres no "why hath thou made me thus" about it. It is just the way it is.

PS: I have enjoyed disscussing these issues with you because we are actually discussing scripture and not attacking each other.

God bless, Dave
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Too much writing for me to comment on it all. I see too many verses pulled up and taken out of context throughout this thread. Like the above about I Cor 3, where everyman's works are tried, and though some men's works are burned they are saved yet by fire. Paul was addressing BELIEVERS here. Salvation is free, but we must simply accept it by trusting alone in Christ alone. If a man dies without having His sins covered, without having trusted Christ, He is not a believer, and with no covering for his sin cannot enter Heaven. He is still spiritualy dead. If he had trusted Christ, his spirit would have been reborn, quickened, made alive.
 

Truth101

Member
joeboonda said:
Too much writing for me to comment on it all. I see too many verses pulled up and taken out of context throughout this thread. Like the above about I Cor 3, where everyman's works are tried, and though some men's works are burned they are saved yet by fire. Paul was addressing BELIEVERS here. Salvation is free, but we must simply accept it by trusting alone in Christ alone. If a man dies without having His sins covered, without having trusted Christ, He is not a believer, and with no covering for his sin cannot enter Heaven. He is still spiritualy dead. If he had trusted Christ, his spirit would have been reborn, quickened, made alive.
I believe scripture is clear on this subject and I have addressed it many times.
What part of "every" do you not understand. You say that too many verses have been taken out of context yet you fail to address them using scripture. You instead offer your "comment" (or opinion) on not "them" but on one.
Furthermore what do you believe of the scripture in Revelation concerning believers and Christ's rebuking of them? "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you". These are Christians. These are they who knew the Lord in the flesh (His death and ressurection) but, they never knew Him in the spirit. They refused to taste the meat of the word and continued on as sucklings on the milk of the word. They never matured as children of God into a Son of God. So your "comment" is taking the spiritual truth out of THE context as if context was key to understanding spiritual things anyway.

With that said, If only christians have this blood covering for their sins how do you suppose these believing Christians found themselves rebuked of our Lord and denied entrence into the Kingdom? Only with spiritual discernment can you truthfully answer this. Remember these Christians prophesied, they fed the poor they did all things they believed would be accepted by our Lord. So why would Christ deny them? Where is their Grace if faith alone is needed? What happened to their covering? At which point did the shed blood of Christ discontinue its job for these?

I ask all these questions but I do not even desire an answer. They are asked for the purpose of causing you to ask yourself if you are sure of what you are stating. If you wish to pursue this converstaion I will gladly answer all of these questions for you. But again even if I answer them this does not assure you are ready to recieve those answers.

I am more than willing to share

God bless, Dave
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Hi, well you can bet I am sure of what I am stating and I am also sure the verse you refer to is not in Revelation but in Mathew chapter 7. Anyway, these people said that they did all these great WORKS but Jesus said I NEVER knew you. NOT that He knew them once and the "shed blood of Christ discontinued its job". These people tried to earn their way to Heaven through their own dead works, which are as filthy rags, without doing what Christ said and following His sayings. And what did He say? He continually said He must suffer, die, be burried, and rise again to pay for ALL the sins of ALL the world. He said this, too:

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is not of our own self-righteous, dead works, but of faith in Christ. It clearly teaches that Christ paid for our sins, yet we must believe the good news, we must accept it. As seen in John 3:18, he that does not believe is condemned already. We all are already sinners, we all need the blood of Christ to cover our sins. It is a totally free gift, but we must either accept it or reject it, definetely not try to work for it. The Bible says we are saved UNTO good works, not BECAUSE of good works. Works are a result of our having believed in Jesus.
 

Truth101

Member
Joeboonda said
"Hi, well you can bet I am sure of what I am stating and I am also sure the verse you refer to is not in Revelation but in Mathew chapter 7. Anyway, these people said that they did all these great WORKS but Jesus said I NEVER knew you. NOT that He knew them once and the "shed blood of Christ discontinued its job". These people tried to earn their way to Heaven through their own dead works, which are as filthy rags, without doing what Christ said and following His sayings. And what did He say? He continually said He must suffer, die, be burried, and rise again to pay for ALL the sins of ALL the world. He said this, too:"
You are right it is in Mathew (my apologies). I do not understand how you can quote yet deny Jesus as "the savior of THE WORLD" all within one paragraph. This is His name, "The Savior of the world", not the Savior of most or some or few in the world. You see, I will ask you, Do you know Jesus as a failed Savior of the world or did He come and save the world? How, if in the end He fails to save all can He be lifted up and be praised as the Savior of the world if He does not actually save the world? Do you believe in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST "THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD"? Did He not come to save that which was lost? (THE WORLD?). Did He not come to give grace more abundantly than the results of sin? What you have is a partial understanding of who Christ is and what He has done. You understand that He died and was burried and rose again so you know Him after the flesh but you have not gone on to spiritual maturity leaving behind those things which are from your (spiritual) youth. Paul spoke on this repeatedly and concluded all those who remain carnally minded to be babes in Christ never able to go on to maturity always looking back and crucifying Christ afresh and bringing Him to shame once again. These are they whos seed is on stony ground recieving the word with joy but never able to take root and eventually they will either remain in that state or they will wither away. They do not grow.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The salvation of all will be "testified in due time". "everlasting life" here is speaking of the Kingdom age, not eternal finality. Just as those who overcome are promised LIFE in His kingdom, the same goes for those who have not, but they are condemned to DEATH through this kingdom age and do not take part in the first resurrection. They remain DEAD through the kingdom age, not eternaly.
The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is not of our own self-righteous, dead works, but of faith in Christ. It clearly teaches that Christ paid for our sins, yet we must believe the good news, we must accept it. As seen in John 3:18, he that does not believe is condemned already. We all are already sinners, we all need the blood of Christ to cover our sins. It is a totally free gift, but we must either accept it or reject it, definetely not try to work for it. The Bible says we are saved UNTO good works, not BECAUSE of good works. Works are a result of our having believed in Jesus.
You are mixing two seperate events here and calling them the same thing. The sacrifice payed the debt of all mankind. He purchased the life of every single individual who has ever lived. We do not have to pay one thing. You are assuming from these passages that not all will eventually come to this realization "in due time" as scripture teaches us. The other thing you are tieing up with the gift of salvation is the promise of the kingdom to those "who overcome". Those who granted entrance into the kingdom are overcomers of their flesh. They have washed themselves clean of all unrightiousness. They have matured from being the children of God to the sons of God. They Have kept the fathers law in their hearts and have crucified their flesh on a daily basis. They have not only died with Christ but they have been conformed into His own image. This is where the work comes in. We are saved by grace and not of our works although our addmittance into the kingdom comes with great works. "Faith without works is dead". So our works are required to take part in the kingdom. It takes great suffering and tribulation and sacrifice of ones life to recieve this. You cannot mix the two points of scripture together and call it the same thing because they are not the same. We need to rightly divide the word of truth. The work on the cross is finished but the end result of the world being saved is believed by faith but as for the kingdom today is the day of salvation. We are to die daily taking up our cross.
I am not trying to sound angry in anyway this is just the way it is spoken in scripture and this is the way it sounds.

God bless, Dave
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101said:…I disagree with your implementing Sodom is not in view here. In these verses jerusalem is compared to Sodom (ancient destroyed) and it is not until the new testament that God uses the term "spiritually called Sodom".
Actually Israel is called Sodom, Judah’s sister. It doesn’t matter when God chooses to define his words. The Bible is one cohesive whole. In fact you need the whole Bible to interpret the Bible. The Bible only and in its entirety is the Word of God. We are to compare scripture with scripture to gain the interpretation, from Genesis to Revelation.
Because of the New Testament scriptures we are able to understand the hidden truths of the Old Testament. In fact without the New Testament, the Old Testament would still be obscured. Just like this historical parable that is hidden in Ezekiel 16, where you are having trouble understanding the gospel message from these passages, because you are not allowing all scripture from Genesis to Revelation to speak concerning who God has in view concerning Sodom. Case in point John the Baptist announces Jesus as the Lamb of God in the New Testament John 1:29. With this piece of information we can go to the Old Testament and now see the gospel message concerning the sacrificing of lambs, the burning of the lambs, and know this was a picture of Christ that would atone for the sins of his people.
The New Testament shines much light on these passages that were once dark and mysterious. Colossians 1:26:

Even the mystery which has been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Prior to this New Testament revelation the inclusion of the Gentiles into the body of Christ was not known it was hidden. But now it is fully known, we can go back in the Old Testament and see the truth of this, what was previously hidden by God.
Because of the further revelation from God in New Testament scripture the gospel message that was previously hidden can now also be seen in the Old Testament. Isaiah 11:10
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious.
What do you know, right there in the middle of the Old Testament. God had already provided this information to us concerning the Gentiles being part of the body of Christ. But it was hidden. But in God’s view it was fully known. At least two things are in view here.
1. God reveals truth in His time.
2. The Bible is written in progressive revelation.
In other word you need the complete Word of God to understand any of the Word and then when and to whom God is please to reveal it to.


Israel is not just compare to Sodom, but has become spiritual Sodom, using the whole of scripture to give us light in this Old Testament dark passage.
Again in Isaiah 1:10
Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom;
Who is Isaiah speaking to, verse 1: Judah and Jerusalem.
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom: (Judah and Jerusalem), The Rulers rule over the PEOPLE OF Sodom, Judah is called Sodom.
Historical Sodom has been wipe of the face of the earth. None escaped that wicked city. So at this time in history God is not speaking to them.
Isaiah 1:10 …give ear unto the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah.

Judah and Jerusalem are the PEOPLE OF Gomorrah.

God’s didn’t say you are LIKE the people of Gomorrah or are COMPARED to the people of Gomorrah.

God said YOU PEOPLE of Gomorrah.

And look its found in the Old Testament. It agrees with New Testament language completely. God is tying these scriptures together for further clarification and revelation into His plan of salvation.

More than that God declares in Deuteronomy 32:31-32:

For their rock is not as our Rock…For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah;

Again in this context God is speaking to Israel. And again condemns them for their unfaithful and spiritual adulteress relationship to God.
They have a rock, but their Rock is not Christ.
They have a vine, but their Vine is not Christ,
Israel is being known by its fruits. Matthews 7:17:
Beware of false prophets…You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

Israel has abandon God’s field and sown the seed of wickedness, the vine of Sodom in the fields of Gomorrah, The fruit of Sodom is being manifested instead of the fruit of the Spirit. Their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter. None of their fruit is acceptable to God.


Deuteronomy 32:31-32:
Their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter; Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of serpents.
Again God fully identifies them with Sodom, which ultimately are of the kingdom of Satan (Satan is call the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan. Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,)


Satan who rules over the hearts of the unsaved, rules in the hearts of people of ancient Israel.
Their wine (gospel) is the poison of dragon. Israel is completely identified with the kingdom of Satan. God declares that Israel has produce wine, which is of Satan and it is because the grapes are from the vine of Sodom, (Israel is spiritually called Sodom) and has produce evil fruit and the axe is laid unto the root, it is ready to be cut down, and cast into the fire.
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101said:…Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17). How is something incurable cured?
Jeremiah 30:12:
For thus saith the LORD, your bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. There is none to plead your cause, that you may be bound up: you have no healing medicines.
This is the same language found in Isaiah 1:5 speaking to Judah and Jerusalem before they are taken captive by the Babylonians in 587 B.C.
Why should you be stricken any more? You will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither soothe with ointment.
To be stricken of God in the scriptures is to be under Gods judgment. For example in Deuteronomy 28:58:
If you will not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD YOUR GOD; Then the LORD will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues and serious and prolonged sicknesses. Moreover he will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt, which your were afraid of; and they shall cleave to you. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon you, until you are destroyed.
Because of disobedience (sin), God smites the people with sickness, plagues and diseases to punish the people. They came under the wrath of God’s judgment.
Micah 6:12-13:
For the rich men thereof are full of violence, and the inhabitants thereof have spoken lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth. Therefore also will I make you sick in smiting you, in making you desolate because of your sins.
To be stricken by God is equivalent to being under God’s judgment because of sin.
Jeremiah 30:12:
For thus saith the LORD, your bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. There is none to plead your cause that you may be bound up: you have no healing medicines.
At the time of Jeremiah’s writing this, Judah is now in captivity. Their sins have found them out. God’s judgment has visited them and their sin plagued souls is incurable. They have no healing medicines. Christ is not their Savior. They are still in their sins.
Verse 14
For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of your iniquity, because your sins were increased.
God has wounded them because of their sins. They are under the Judgment of God wrath.
Why do you cry because of you affliction? Your sorrow is incurable for the multitude of your iniquity; because your sins were increased, I have done these things to you.
Their sins are incurable. First of all, man cannot pay for his own sins.
Romans 6:23:
The wages of sin is death, (eternal death)
It’s incurable, the price is eternal, it will never be accomplish, because it takes an eternity to satisfy the debt. So they will continue to serve the sentence of this death forever.
Verse 12
There is none to plead your cause,
Their sin is incurable because Christ will not plead their cause, He didn’t pay for their sins. They must serve out the sentence alone.
However in verse 17
For I will restore health to you, and I will heal you of your wounds, say’s the LORD;
God will have mercy to the remnant chosen by grace. God will heal His people from their sins. Matthew 1:21:
And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins.
God has brought Christ to plead their cause, to stand in the breach, to become sin for them, so that he would pay the eternal wages of death for His people. He alone being Eternal God could say Revelation 1:18:

I am he who lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore,

Christ is from Everlasting to Everlasting; He alone can span across eternity and still be from eternity. Revelation 1:8:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, say’s the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come. The Almighty.

What a Great Savior, Psalms 90:1:

LORD, you have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or before you formed the earth and the world, even form everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

God restores health to His people. The sins of His people were healed by the punishment that he endured. Isaiah 53:4:

He was wounded for our transgressions, (sins) he was beat to pieces for our iniquities (sins): the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his wounds we are healed.

Health was restore at the cross. The sickness (sins) that plagued His people were healed by Christ’s wounds. By Christ being punished, coming under the wrath of God’s judgment for our sins, His people health was restored. The wounds of His people were cured; the sins of His people were healed.

Malachi 4:2;
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;

At the cross the payment of eternal damnation (that which was incurable) was satisfied when he made his soul an offering for sin. The SON of righteousness arose (the resurrection was proof that payment for sin was satisfied) with healing in His wings.

Apart from Christ you sins are incurable they will never be completely pay for. However in Christ the debt was paid. Matthew 10:27;

With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Even the payment, the wages of eternal damnation, spending the equivalency under the wrath of God for the sins of His chosen people, was possible because Christ is Eternal God.
But with men paying the wages of eternal damnation it is impossible because they are men and not God, they must continue until they pay the very last mite.
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101said:…Since you clarified that you do not believe man has freewill than how can you without it justify your belief in eternal torment?


Man is in subjection to the will of God. No question about that.
All, every single individual, past, present and future has violated God’s will.
Romans 2:10:
As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
This is in the context of God proving that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin.
What is the penalty for sin? Romans 6:23:
For the wages of sin is death (eternal damnation).
That is for every single individual, past, present and future.
In fact as soon as Adam disobeyed God’s commanded in the garden. God would have been perfectly JUST and RIGHTEOUS in condemning every single individual the sentence of the LAW. The breaking of the Law required retribution or payment for its transgression. The payment or wages is death (eternal damnation). Nothing less would be acceptable, in fact God would be UNJUST and a liar if price of sin wasn’t fully satisfied.
That could have been the end of the story and God’s dealings with man in this way would be completely HONORABLE and FAIR.
In fact, in order to fulfill the Law, the debt MUST be paid. The sentence must be completed to fully discharge the debt.
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101said:…If man is a product of their habitation and upbringing how do you justify eternal punishment over remedial temporary correction? You see if man is in subjection to the will of God and God heals them through a temporary means of punishment than He is justified for His actions
The problem is not with God judging the whole human race and then requiring them to completely carry out the Law’s sentence of eternal punishment for their transgression.
The problem is with man who disobeyed God’s Law.

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.


What was required was perfect obedience to the Almighty King of creation. Nothing less would be tolerated, in fact Death would be required if found in disobedience. Disobedience to a command of a king (let alone the King of kings) is known as treason, rebellion and insurrection to the Sovereign. Any obstinate behavior, any willful defiance of the King’s command cannot go unpunished in any kingdom.

Obedience on the other hand proves your allegiance, loyalty and devotion to your
Highness.
Jesus said in John 14:16:
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Verse 21

He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me.
God defines how we are to show our love for him. 1John 5:3:
This is love for God, that we obey his commandments:

Willing submission would show the honor due to his Potentate. Homage could be shown by compliance to his Supreme Ruler. Love can be express in his faithfulness to his King’s orders, even as a soldiers carries out the command of his superiors, even if this would require risking his life in the line of duty. Nothing can come in the way on the commandment of the King, not even your life. Death rather than disobedience to his Majesty’s wishes is how to express the love that he felt for Him. God’s honor, God’s adoration, and God’s praise was violated through disobedience.

Disloyalty, unfaithfulness and infidelity were what Adam conveyed through his disgraceful act of disobedience.

What was once created good, Evil now presides in its place.
After he formed man from the dust: Genesis 1: 31:
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Adam, who didn’t need the use of clothes: because Integrity, righteousness and goodness clothe him.

Adam, who once walked in innocence, is now full of guilt, shame and condemnation.

Let’s place the fault on who is responsible.
Man sinned, not God.
Man is to be blame for his willful disobedience. Not God who is carrying out the Law’s demands for payment of such a crime. We are guilty, dirty, rotten, and wretched sinners deserving of eternal damnation. God is Holy, Just, Good and Righteous for his judicial decision of eternal punishment to be inflicted on the guilty.
Remember this important truth, There is no unrighteousness with God.
1John 5:17:
All unrighteousness is sin:
In God is found no sin. 1Peter 2:22:
(Christ) Who, did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
Man is the sinner. 1John 1:8:
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
God upholds the Law. Matthew 3:15:
And Jesus answering said to him, (John the Baptist) permit it to be so now: for thus it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness.

Man is the violator of the Law. Romans 14:10:
For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ….So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

God passes sentence on the perpetrator. Revelation 20:11:
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:…and the dead were judged out of those things, which were written in the books. According to their works.:…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The death that God had in view when He warned Adam for the consequences of his disobedience is now being fulfilled here on Judgment Day. Their first death was only temporary and didn’t fulfill the sentence, but was only a picture or shadow of the death that would be required for disobedience to the Law of God.
Let’s not make light of sin. Let’s not down play the awfulness of sin. Let’s not gloss over our terrible condition because of our rebellion to the command of God.

Yes, the second death is to dreaded:
Yes, the second death is to be feared:
Yes, the second death is a cause of alarm:
Yes, the second death should strike terror in the hearts of man.

2Corinthians 5:12:
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.
KNOWING THEREFORE THE TERROR OF THE LORD, WE PERSUADE MEN.
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101said:… but if He makes them the way they are then sends them to be tormented forever and ever and ever than He is unjustified in His actions and He becomes a respecter of persons not to mention many other problems we could speak on which this view horribly disfigures His character.


God create man in His own image and man was very good. Genesis 1: 31:
And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold it was very good.


Man was perfect in his ways from the day that God created him.

God didn’t create a man sinner.
When man was tempted of Satan, man was drawn away of his own lust.
James 1:13:
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Again, man is the sinner and deserving of eternal damnation. Man’s heart was lifted up, and wanted to be like God. Man wanted to rule in God’s stead. Man lusted to rule himself and not to have God rule over him. Verse 15:
Then when lust hath conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.
The second death (eternal damnation) is because of sin, and sin enters in the heart of man because he was allured by this lust.
God didn’t make man to disobey, man disobeyed because iniquity was found in his own heart.
Genesis 2:17:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
Genesis 3:4:

And the serpent said to the woman, you shall not surely die: For God does know that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Man lusted to be like God to know good and evil. Man obeyed Satan rather than God. Man believed the word of Satan rather than the Word of God.
The fault is in man who has resisted God’s will.
Now there is no respecter of persons with God, because the whole human race (every single individual, past, present and future) has to pay the debt of eternal damnation. The wages of death (the second death) will be paid. God will not violate His own Law.
Now the question is: Why would God even pay for the sins of even one person?
We should stand in awe and in total amazement when we contemplate this marvel!
Why would God suffer the wrath of His Holy Law to save even one disobedient, wretched, miserable rotten sinner that was in total rebellion against the MOST HIGH.
Unfathomable LOVE, MERCY and GRACE are the answers!
God was under no obligation to save anyone. In fact, just the opposite, God was obligated to carry out His Word (LAW) sentencing of death to the whole human race.
However in order to save even one sinner from such a great penalty demanded by the Law (eternal damnation). This penalty must be satisfied completely.
Psalms 85:10:
Mercy and truth are met together;
God’s Mercy could not violate God’s integrity to His word.
God’s Mercy must be loyal to His Laws.
God’s Mercy must conform to the penalty demands.
God’s Mercy must adhere to His command.
God’s Mercy still must pay allegiance to Truth.
In order for mercy to be shown God’s truth must also be satisfied.
Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
In order to have peace sin’s wages must be paid for.
In order to have peace the penalty was quieted.
In order to have peace the terror of eternal damnation was appeased.
In order to have peace the hostilities of the second death have ended.
In order to have peace the enmity of the Law found tranquility.

In order to save one sinner from eternal damnation, eternal damnation must be endured. That’s why there is great joy in heaven over one sinner salvation.

If God’s Law was not addressed and only mercy, love and grace prevail, then God would be a liar and like Satan, which said Genesis 3:4:
You shall not surely die:
Talk about horribly disfiguring His character
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101said:…I also agree that it is by no other name but Christ whereby we MUST be saved but what I am tryign to show you in scripture is that there some reserved for the kingdom and they have the gift of the holy spirit to guide them and lead them into all truth hence, given eyes to see and ears to hear and they do believe because of this. This is the mercy and grace of God. All the rest do not recieve this gift of the spirit but they do have salvation.

The gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of God or the gift is salvation (salvation is eternal life).
Romans 5:15-18
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God. And the giftby grace, which is by one man Jesus Christ, has abounded to many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences to justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.
First this gift is free. Secondly it is by God’s grace through Christ. This gift justified His people before the Law that demanded the payment of sins (which is eternal death) Christ paid this price at the cross for all of His people. He justified them (made them righteous before the Law of God). These are the ones that reign in life with Jesus Christ (they never experience the second death or eternal death, which is eternal punishment for their sins, to be cast away from God’s mercy for eternity.
Romans 6:23
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
One that is free from sin is one that had their sins paid for by Christ. One that had their sins paid for are holy (pure in the eyes of God, made righteous in Christ again) These have experience salvation from the Laws eternal punishment, the second Death, which they never experience because Christ experience it for them on their behalf. These people receive Life, which is eternal in nature. These reign with Christ forever. Those that don’t receive this gift will receive their wages (the second death).
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
They must pay for their own sins, tried in the fires of God, removing the sins from theirs souls as fire removes the dross or impurities from gold. This cleansing or payment process is an eternal purification process, which never ends; these people whom Christ was not their substitute will endure the wrath of Gods righteous judgment forever. Eternally being cleansed of their sins, because God whose is Eternal, has laws that are eternal and his eternal law demands death, We know that it doesn’t mean just physical death because we read in John 5:28:

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
All that are in the grave have experience the first death, which is physical, temporal in nature. All the people that have physically died before Christ’s return to judge the world will be experience this resurrection on the last day. They will be brought back to life to stand trial for their sins. Those that have not been justified by Christ are those that have done evil and will receive damnation (this is the wages for their sins, Death). Notice the Language if Revelation 20:12:
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead, which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead, which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the Second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It’s Judgment day, It’s the hour that is coming in John 5:28. The graves are open and the dead were judge out of books. (The Law of God). All that were physically dead, that were in graves, in the sea are being resurrected to stand trial for their sins. Graves and the sea is the place that their physical body went at the time of their death.
The language of hell delivered up the dead is the place that the unsaved soul or spirit essence of man went at the time of death (a place of silence). At this time the bodies and the souls and spirits of these unsaved are being reunited again as a whole person to stand for judgment and experience the Second death. Whoever are not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire to pay for their own sins. Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; (the second death)
The command that was given to Adam in Genesis is finally being fulfilled. Genesis 2:17:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat of it you shall die. (Pointing to the eternal death, which God had in view the second death).
However there is another book that is being open (the book of life, Christ is the Way, the Truth and the LIFE) the book of the work of Christ atonement for his people.
Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This free gift by grace of God is salvation; it is given to His people. The true Israel of God is given this gift, which makes them righteous before the law (they will not experience the wages of this second death or eternal damnation). This gift of God has justified (make them sinless) before the Law of God. So whoever was found written in the Lamb book of life received eternal life because Christ died this second death for them (eternal punishment forever).
He is the only acceptable substitute to pay the wages demand by the law, which is eternal punishment. Christ, who is Eternal God, became sin for us who knew no sin that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us.
Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin condemned sin in the flesh; that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101said:…If the wages of sin is eternal death and Jesus came to pay that debt than why is He (Jesus) not still paying our debt if the debt is eternal? Jesus should still be in "eternal damnation". He should still be "destroyed". He should have "parished". He should still be burning away. Scripture bares this out, that He (Jesus) came to give Himself a ransom for us. Well that ransom, according to Orthodox Christianity is eternal death. The smoke of His torment should still be ascending forever and ever.
Christ who is Eternal God stood in our place under the Laws verdict of guilty and then sentences Him to eternity under the wrath of this penalty.
2Cor.1:9:
But we had the sentence of death in ourselves that we should not trust in ourselves but in God, which raises the dead; Who delivered us from so GREAT A DEATH.
Christ, who is Eternal God, is the only qualified one to pay such a great price. That price or wages being the second death or eternal damnation. The Law could unleash its full fury the EQUIVALENCY of eternal damnation and Christ who is Eternal God could endure this eternal anguish and satisfy every last stripe. Eternal God who is our Savior Jesus Christ could only satisfy the Laws demand of eternal damnation.
 
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