New Religious Movements?

Laika · Oct 5, 2017

Hey there,

Its still early days for me exploring and developing my own beliefs, but I wanted to say hi and to get to know you all here. I'm hoping it could be a very interesting and creative journey. Its always nice to have company to share it with though.

I realise this DIR isn't very active so maybe we can just chat and get to know each other better. How did you get involved in your current beliefs? Do you have any advice for someone trying to start from scratch?

Quintessence · Oct 5, 2017

Contemporary Paganism tends to get classified as a "new religious movement" in the scholarly literature (and the movement is pretty new - not even a century old yet), so in that sense I suppose that I am good to wander in here?

Might post something in more detail later... but I think one of the biggest challenges in looking at NRMs as a source of inspiration is knowing that they even exist in the first place. If I had known contemporary Paganism was a thing earlier in life, I would have latched onto it earlier in life. Instead, I didn't learn about it until I was in my early 20s.

sun rise · Oct 5, 2017

I'm a follower of Meher Baba which is classified as a "new religious movement". I don't advertise it because most people don't care. And I'm allergic to proselytizing. I do note the essence of his message, love, along with the message is that there are many paths that all lead to the same destination in the end.

I got involved by being stoned on drugs one night when Baba Ram Das (Richard Alpert) read his message on drugs on the radio. That motivated me to learn more and I found his messages satisfied me on multiple levels.

Laika · Oct 6, 2017

Quintessence said:
Contemporary Paganism tends to get classified as a "new religious movement" in the scholarly literature (and the movement is pretty new - not even a century old yet), so in that sense I suppose that I am good to wander in here?

The more the merrier. DIRs are more fun that way.

Quintessence said:
Might post something in more detail later... but I think one of the biggest challenges in looking at NRMs as a source of inspiration is knowing that they even exist in the first place. If I had known contemporary Paganism was a thing earlier in life, I would have latched onto it earlier in life. Instead, I didn't learn about it until I was in my early 20s.

I'm more than happy to hear about your experience with Paganism.

I suspect some of the most interesting religions are going to be the ones' I'm least familiar with if I start walking away from the Abrahamic Religions as the dominant ones. (though honestly, I probably only know a very small about them as it is).

I may be mistaken here (or using the term "pagan" very loosely) but I find the idea of nature worship from indigenous religions makes sense. I am only aware of the very shallow cultural appropriation of tribal religions for western audiences. Its never the same of course and distorts the meaning of what is believed (in much the same way wearing a Che T-shirt has nothing to do with Marxism). I am semi-conscious that there is a level of diversity in pagan and indigenous traditions (and ancient mythologies) that I have had little or no contact with. That could be a bit of an adventure to explore and see some new horizons if you will.

sunrise123 said:
I'm a follower of Meher Baba which is classified as a "new religious movement". I don't advertise it because most people don't care. And I'm allergic to proselytizing. I do note the essence of his message, love, along with the message is that there are many paths that all lead to the same destination in the end.

I got involved by being stoned on drugs one night when Baba Ram Das (Richard Alpert) read his message on drugs on the radio. That motivated me to learn more and I found his messages satisfied me on multiple levels.

Meher Baba is someone I know nothing about. I had to look him up on Wikipedia. If you want to share you're very welcome to.

Quintessence · Oct 10, 2017

So I kinda forgot about this thread for a few days... my bad.

I think Pagan traditions can be particularly challenging (but also fun) to follow because they are very different from what most recognize as "religion" in countries like the United States. In the United States, there's a tendency to think religion is rather organized and structured, both in terms of being an institution and in terms of dogmas, ideologies, and practices. Everything is put out on a silver platter for you, pre-chosen and arranged... it's easy. Contemporary Paganism is like the wild, wild west by comparison - there is very little in the way of organization or structure, and certainly a lack of dogma relating to beliefs and practices.

What this means is that if you participate in the movement, you are blazing your own trail and building your own religion. For some people, that works really well, but for others, they really need something more institutionally structured. Blazing a trail in contemporary Paganism is work. It's why when I sometimes hear folks remark about religion being easy, or just about belief, I laugh inside. The amount of work and research I've done relating to my pursuit of religion is... well... at least enough to qualify for a bachelor's degree, if not close to a masters if I bothered to publish. In general, going NRM requires being something of a self-starter, but especially in something like contemporary Paganism. If you want easy, stay away from Paganism.

Laika · Oct 10, 2017

Quintessence said:
So I kinda forgot about this thread for a few days... my bad.

I think Pagan traditions can be particularly challenging (but also fun) to follow because they are very different from what most recognize as "religion" in countries like the United States. In the United States, there's a tendency to think religion is rather organized and structured, both in terms of being an institution and in terms of dogmas, ideologies, and practices. Everything is put out on a silver platter for you, pre-chosen and arranged... it's easy. Contemporary Paganism is like the wild, wild west by comparison - there is very little in the way of organization or structure, and certainly a lack of dogma relating to beliefs and practices.

Sounds liberating. That said it probably relies on you knowing what you want from your beliefs in advance to know the path you'll take. It would take alot of confidence and self-assurance though it may develop in time. I'm not sure how that would work for me as my experience with beliefs has been using the structure to find the missing pieces of the puzzle. Being aware of the diversity of pagan ideas will probably be useful to see what the options are in terms of beliefs. It would be healthy to burst the "religion is abrahamic religions" bubble.

Quintessence said:
What this means is that if you participate in the movement, you are blazing your own trail and building your own religion. For some people, that works really well, but for others, they really need something more institutionally structured. Blazing a trail in contemporary Paganism is work. It's why when I sometimes hear folks remark about religion being easy, or just about belief, I laugh inside. The amount of work and research I've done relating to my pursuit of religion is... well... at least enough to qualify for a bachelor's degree, if not close to a masters if I bothered to publish.

Quintessence said:
In general, going NRM requires being something of a self-starter, but especially in something like contemporary Paganism. If you want easy, stay away from Paganism.

About an hour ago I was reading a PDF file of an English translation of an East German text book for first year science graduates on applying the Marxist philosophy of nature to physics and quantum mechanics.

*feels mixture of pride and embarrassment as if confessing a kinky taste in porn whilst trying to pretend its perfectly normal*

So, yeah, I think I can relate to the level of intellectual masochism involved.

Quintessence · Oct 10, 2017

Laika said:
Sounds liberating. That said it probably relies on you knowing what you want from your beliefs in advance to know the path you'll take. It would take alot of confidence and self-assurance though it may develop in time.

In a fashion, I suppose it does. In my case, I had been practicing various things without attaching a name to it for quite some time, and then I stumbled upon a movement that was doing those things. It provided more structure and context to use as a framework for developing a more coherent way of life. Put another way, it basically enhanced what I was already doing and the direction I was already going. I think that's the thing to look for in finding a path - find that which calls to what you find sacred already. By the time you're a young adult, you'll have quite a bit of that self-identity aspect figured out, I think. From there, yeah, there's a bit of trusting yourself to ... well... be an adult and take responsibility for building your religion.

robocop (actually) · Oct 10, 2017

I'd be happy to share how I came onto Raelism. After 9-11 I was religiously curious. I wanted to know more about Genesis 1 and thought it must be very deep. I found meru.org information and Raelian information. The Raelian information was about Genesis 1 being about Aliens creating life on earth but changed one letter of the Torah, which I thought was blasphemous. I liked hearing how they cloned a baby though. Then one day I realized they probably could have changed a letter out of the Torah and I was hooked.

robocop (actually) · Oct 10, 2017

Hey Quentessence, am I going to be able to share my book in Member Announcements? I promise to agree to any conditions this time, including what I suggested in "Site Feedback," and my mental illness won't get me over-stepping my boundaries. I'm ashamed of doing that.

Laika · Oct 11, 2017

robocop (actually) said:
I'd be happy to share how I came onto Raelism. After 9-11 I was religiously curious. I wanted to know more about Genesis 1 and thought it must be very deep. I found meru.org information and Raelian information. The Raelian information was about Genesis 1 being about Aliens creating life on earth but changed one letter of the Torah, which I thought was blasphemous. I liked hearing how they cloned a baby though. Then one day I realized they probably could have changed a letter out of the Torah and I was hooked.

Feel free to share. It sounds interesting.

robocop (actually) · Oct 11, 2017

OK I'll talk about my religious life more later thanks. You can see a lot about the religion on the alien forum. I have a very well-visited thread there and recommend all my threads.

robocop (actually) · Oct 12, 2017

Here is my story:

I grew up Mormon; when I was 15 I told my friends I knew something from the Holy Ghost and they laughed at me, making me doubt. However wanting to skip a grade and get to college I went to the Mormon-run BYU at 16/17. I wasn't impressed even if I didn't know I had an inflated opinion of my abilities; I didn't like Mormonism and wanted to go somewhere else.

I applied to 5 or so UC schools and my dad hid my acceptance letters to two of them; UC Davis in Manufacturing Engineering and UCLA in math. I really didn't want to go on a mission after I went through the Mormon temple because I thought it was a cult.

Fortunately, finding the acceptance letter just 3 weeks before I had to start a semester, I got to go to UCLA for two trimesters in pre-Cybernetics. I got to learn a lot of religions there and make theories of why they were made up. I really didn't have time to take them; I should have substituted my religious credits from classes about Mormonism and graduated sooner. A lot happened and my parents seemed more interested in me being Mormon than going to UCLA... I could have used more of their help. Schizophrenia and many things got in the way and I found myself back at BYU. But while I was at UCLA I was able to sample some religions and I really dug on the Bhagavad Gita and Hinduism (sorry Hindus if you didn't want me to reveal that.) I read that book at least a dozen times.

Back at BYU 9/11 happened and it was like I said. I went to Salt Lake City and went to the Synagogue on Saturday (orthodox) and LDS Church on Sunday. It was too sparsely populated for me to find enough work. Back to BYU.

There I found a FARMS book that proved the Book of Mormon so I just assumed the modern church was correct. I went on a mission and got a Masters at BYU. On my Mission it hit me about Raelism like I've mentioned and only by getting on the mental health system was I able to join. By my own fault I left Raelism too and have almost always wanted to join since then (I have to wait a 7 year period but there's no hell or anything to worry about; I'm just to reflect on it). I am Epicurean, Einsteinian, syncretic and waiting to be Raelian. The only religions I have been morally allowed to join have been Wicca, Bhuddhism, and Scientology. I don't have to pay the $20,000 because I am already very clear.

Laika · Oct 13, 2017

robocop (actually) said:
Here is my story:

I grew up Mormon; when I was 15 I told my friends I knew something from the Holy Ghost and they laughed at me, making me doubt. However wanting to skip a grade and get to college I went to the Mormon-run BYU at 16/17. I wasn't impressed even if I didn't know I had an inflated opinion of my abilities; I didn't like Mormonism and wanted to go somewhere else.

I applied to 5 or so UC schools and my dad hid my acceptance letters to two of them; UC Davis in Manufacturing Engineering and UCLA in math. I really didn't want to go on a mission after I went through the Mormon temple because I thought it was a cult.

Fortunately, finding the acceptance letter just 3 weeks before I had to start a semester, I got to go to UCLA for two trimesters in pre-Cybernetics. I got to learn a lot of religions there and make theories of why they were made up. I really didn't have time to take them; I should have substituted my religious credits from classes about Mormonism and graduated sooner. A lot happened and my parents seemed more interested in me being Mormon than going to UCLA... I could have used more of their help. Schizophrenia and many things got in the way and I found myself back at BYU. But while I was at UCLA I was able to sample some religions and I really dug on the Bhagavad Gita and Hinduism (sorry Hindus if you didn't want me to reveal that.) I read that book at least a dozen times.

Back at BYU 9/11 happened and it was like I said. I went to Salt Lake City and went to the Synagogue on Saturday (orthodox) and LDS Church on Sunday. It was too sparsely populated for me to find enough work. Back to BYU.

There I found a FARMS book that proved the Book of Mormon so I just assumed the modern church was correct. I went on a mission and got a Masters at BYU. On my Mission it hit me about Raelism like I've mentioned and only by getting on the mental health system was I able to join. By my own fault I left Raelism too and have almost always wanted to join since then (I have to wait a 7 year period but there's no hell or anything to worry about; I'm just to reflect on it). I am Epicurean, Einsteinian, syncretic and waiting to be Raelian. The only religions I have been morally allowed to join have been Wicca, Bhuddhism, and Scientology. I don't have to pay the $20,000 because I am already very clear.

My story is not quite the same but you may be able to relate to it in trying to figure out what the "true" belief is and figuring out the "right" path to take in life. I was brought up by Socialist Parents who were both in the Labour Party. Politics was part of the everyday discussion (and still is). I took an interest in science and history and eventually came to become interested in the Russian Revolution. I think the specific reason why I became a Communist sympathiser was that I had read about Peak Oil and thought that a Planned Economy might deal with the problem faster based on what I had read about the success of the Five Year plans in the USSR during the great depression.

I studied economics at uni for a year and developed a gay crush on my flat mate by kept quiet about it. I barely scraped through into the second year and started to develop depression. It happened that I was studying economics whilst the financial crisis of 2008 was on going, and I knew I didn't agree with the course, so I dropped out. It was hard though because obviously I wanted to stay in touch with my friend and the depression got worse.

At this point, I was really vulnerable and effectively swallowed the contents of some books on Marxist theory. I took Communism more seriously (though still not really understanding it) and it was the equivalent of a religious conversion. I was an atheist and so this was as close to religion as I could get (although I did have a very brief interest in Buddhism). The first two years away from University were when I was both the most depressed and the most fanatical. I tried to stay in touch with my friend and went back to see him whilst he was still a Uni twice.

He liked to travel so one time he went to visit Thailand and Cambodia. He had been a politics student, so it crossed my mind that he would have visited the Killing Fields in Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge. I knew that if he asked me what I thought about it, I wouldn't have a good answer and couldn't bring myself to lie if him if he'd have asked (he never did). So I read the Black Book of Communism which detailed all the atrocities (and is the source for the headline "Communism killed 100 million people" figure). It was life changing because it was the first time I had ever really thought about death and turning each page was more horrific than the last. The book is about 800 pages long but I managed 300 pages consecutively and got to about 1937. I knew it was only going to get worse so I didn't need to read anymore. I got the message. Within about a month I was reading Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" to find a way out.

I never actually found out if my friend did go an see the killing fields, but based on what he did next, he almost certainly didn't. He became involved with a defence contractor, working to facilitate arms sales as part of conferences and so was- in all but name- an arms dealer. I tried to talk him out of it but had no success only to come out to him over the phone knowing nothing would come of it. he did eventually leave the job but we've never been in touch since. That was my lowest point and was the deepest period of depression I had. I gave up watching TV to find something that might improve my mood and had more time to read things or do stuff on the internet.

This was back in 2013 and the next four years consisted of me reading and thinking a lot and doing the soul-searching over whether I could actually support Communism in reality and trying to beat depression. I was a member of the Communist Party of Britain in 2015 but got cold feet and left after a few months. When Trump got elected it brought things to a head because I knew that we were now "screwed" if he kept his promise to withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement. After doing a lot of research about the CPGB-ML (the UK's Stalinist/anti-revisionist party) I decided it was time to finally drop it and that even if Communism was "true" I still couldn't support it because it was so violent. Given that this was the end result of 4 to 6 years of doubts, it really eroded a lot of the certainties I once had. I'm not sure what I believe anymore. Hence why I'm in the new religious movements sub-forum to see if I can start over and find something to believe in that isn't quite so brutal and may be much more fulfilling.

robocop (actually) · Oct 13, 2017

I think overpopulation causes the societal problems you've spoken of, and the politest way to try to do that is to be clear to people that you don't want them to have too many children. My family has come to accept that that's how I feel, but they have a lot of children anyhow.

Let me know how I can help you. Raelism is like all religions (syncretic) and has a recommended economic system between capitalism and communism (and a system of voting). So if that's what you're interested in see you on the aliens forum.

robocop (actually) · Oct 13, 2017

Laika said:

Just making sure you know I replied.

Laika · Oct 14, 2017

robocop (actually) said:
Let me know how I can help you. Raelism is like all religions (syncretic) and has a recommended economic system between capitalism and communism (and a system of voting). So if that's what you're interested in see you on the aliens forum.

Thanks. I'm just exploring for now. I might have a look sometime.

sun rise · Oct 16, 2017

Laika said:
Meher Baba is someone I know nothing about. I had to look him up on Wikipedia. If you want to share you're very welcome to.

To pick up your suggestion, my early life was as a secular Jew. We went to Temple only for such things as weddings but not for any religious reason. Religion and spirituality were blanks - they were of no interest to even reject.

But there were times at night when I'd look up at the stars and wonder but those were fleeting moments. I went to Hebrew School but what I absorbed was Israeli nationalism which lasted until 1967 and started to dissipate after the 1973 war when Israel occupied territory.

When I was in graduate school in chemistry I started using drugs to get stoned. Some friends made chemicals in lab which we smoked and ate amongst other things. One night I had to feed a thorazine to someone having a bad trip. Somehow in my own wasted state I was able to convince him that the pill was a magic potion which would protect him from the demons.

(Note the words 'stoned', 'wasted' and others. The terms we used were a hint that I could not see at the time).

This led to the event I mentioned earlier where I heard Richard Alpert (Baba Ram Das) read Meher Baba's message on drugs while I was under the influence.

(I'll break this up into multiple posts to avoid TL;DR as much as possible).

sun rise · Oct 16, 2017

After that event and a few others such as finding the "Eternal Now" poster on my wall very meaningful, I started searching for a path.

I visited Chogyam Trungpa's center in Vermont and was charmed by the philosophy they had around work. They had regular work periods and people were asked to work on whatever bothered them. If you were bothered by the table being dirty, you cleaned it. And so forth.

I also visited Philip Kapleau's Zen center then located in Rochester New York. I found that attractive as well. They had adapted the begging practice to picking up litter. It seemed to me that spirituality in America and the west in general had to be oriented around Western culture and not try to follow an Eastern pattern here.

(more later)

Laika · Oct 16, 2017

sunrise123 said:
When I was in graduate school in chemistry I started using drugs to get stoned. Some friends made chemicals in lab which we smoked and ate amongst other things. One night I had to feed a thorazine to someone having a bad trip. Somehow in my own wasted state I was able to convince him that the pill was a magic potion which would protect him from the demons.

I'm sorry to hear that. That sounds like a very ugly experience.

sunrise123 said:
(I'll break this up into multiple posts to avoid TL;DR as much as possible).

Keep 'em coming. It's nice to hear someone else's experience and just to share.

sun rise · Oct 21, 2017

Laika said:
Keep 'em coming. It's nice to hear someone else's experience and just to share.

It's been a crazy week but I've not forgot your kind invitation.

When I was thinking about what I might write, one thought came to me about the balance that I was seeking between wanting to believe and needing to be skeptical. I mentioned Meher Baba before but when I read his statement that he was the Avatar/Christ come again, my initial thought was "how can he say that, it's supreme pride" followed by "but what if he's telling the truth"? There are too many instances around of people getting fooled and taken advantage of and I needed to guard myself against being one of them.

I literally spent years reading his writings, reading biographies, meeting people who were close to him before his death in 1969 and going back and forth between "is he or isn't he" before I felt the answer "he is".

Along the way I came to understand that we're all different and have different paths in life. If there is any differentiation it's between those who choose a positive path, no matter what it's called which involves search for truth, joy, peace, beauty and so forth and a path of darkness of lies, misery, ugliness in many different forms.

And even then there is no permanent hell but only a chance to learn a lesson and try again. Of course, I still have weaknesses and get angry and even wrathful about what is going on today, but that's my own issue to work to overcome.

My search has also left me curious about what other people find which provides meaning in their lives. People that worship nature remind me to look for divinity in nature, for example. Atheists who focus on what is true remind me to never forget the search for truth and to avoid constricting dogmatism about my beliefs. This is summed up in a song a friend recorded and put on youtube.

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