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Theists: How do you determine that God is not a malevolent being?

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's a serious question. I am reading a book on philosophy of religion so the question cropped up. Clearly a sufficiently powerful malevolent being can deceive any theist into thinking he is a good God. So how do you verify that your good is not a powerful malevolent being? In fact how do you no that God himself is not a malevolent being? Evidence and arguments welcome.

:)

Note:- This is a thread for those interested in discussing theological, metaphysical and philosophical arguments and evidence that justifies or negates various worldviews. If one is not interested in such things, that's perfectly fine and the thread is not for you. :)
How isn't reading a book about people reading a book, whom BTW, have a mountain of books about a book they clearly have no idea what they are reading not recursive? I love literacy its dangerous.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
It's a serious question. I am reading a book on philosophy of religion so the question cropped up. Clearly a sufficiently powerful malevolent being can deceive any theist into thinking he is a good God. So how do you verify that your good is not a powerful malevolent being? In fact how do you no that God himself is not a malevolent being? Evidence and arguments welcome.

:)

Note:- This is a thread for those interested in discussing theological, metaphysical and philosophical arguments and evidence that justifies or negates various worldviews. If one is not interested in such things, that's perfectly fine and the thread is not for you. :)

Good points. Reminds me of one of my favorite new songs "Long Time Coming" by Bobaflex. Look it up.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So if God doesn't exist, then what makes nature stable, why we don't see disastrous earthquakes happening in your place every hour?
A malevolent God would be well able to keep nature stable.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
How isn't reading a book about people reading a book, whom BTW, have a mountain of books about a book they clearly have no idea what they are reading not recursive? I love literacy its dangerous.
??
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I have a degree in studies of religious studies who study religion studying. What we have discovered is religious studies/religious philosophy is confused. We are objective and religious studies and religious philosophy is actually clueless and subjective to us!!! If we ask how is religious philosophy religious studies not recursive they answer??? Literacy is a funny painting of a painting infinitly. It occasionally reboots as starts again. The grelling_nelson paradox points to a problem.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Does a world necessarily require hurricanes to exist and be hospitable to life?
Yes. Hurricanes - as with most meteorological events - occur to correct an atmospheric imbalance; generally during changes in seasonal climate. It's not like the gods threw them at a coastal city built 6 feet under sea level out of spite.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes. Hurricanes - as with most meteorological events - occur to correct an atmospheric imbalance; generally during changes in seasonal climate. It's not like the gods threw them at a coastal city built 6 feet under sea level out of spite.
You forget that God could have created a completely Oceanic world with sentient dolphin like creatures. Thus, in an instant, hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, droughts and floods could be removed as evils that such dolphin like beings would suffer.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
You forget that God could have created a completely Oceanic world with sentient dolphin like creatures.
You're barking up the wrong tree with that one, as I don't believe in one god. Our solar system is what it is (and our universe, but that's a bigger scale,) and there are laws laid down for how this reality must operate. Fire will burn, cold will freeze. The earth goes through cycles as we revolve around the sun, and this demands a changing environment in relation to Her heat. The sea behaves as She does, generating an oceanic climate, and this clashes with the old (often violently) to bring about change for the new. The Earth moves with life, constantly changing, and brings about quakes and heat from within. This, if anything, is what is taught in the tale of the Ragnarök; that all must die and change, often violently, to bring about the new world of tomorrow.

As for droughts and floods, are those natural disasters that can be attributed to climate, or are they disasters in that we stubbornly try to live in deserts and lowlands? New Orleans was a disaster with Katrina because the city is literally underneath the sea level by six feet; is that fault of the gods, or our own obstinacy?
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Earthquakes, disease, volcanoes?

Ah, the million dollar question: why does God allow suffering?

Since my beliefs are based on the bible I’ll give you the long-story-short version, based on the bible.

First of all, it is very important to understand that even though at the moment God is not stopping bad things from happening, he’s not the cause of them either. In Job 34:10 we read “So listen to me, you men of understanding: It is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly, For the Almighty to do wrong!” and James 1:13 states “When under trial, let no one say: ‘I am being tried by God.’ For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.”
Whatever bad things people go through, God didn’t cause them. He does however let them happen, and there’s a reason for that.

One common misconception needs to be cleared up first. Many people think of God as the ruler of this world, the one who is in direct control of everything. This is what the bible says about who rules the world in 1 John 5:19 “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” Jesus identified this wicked one as Satan, a rebellious angel that is first mentioned as tempting Eve in the account of Genesis when he suggested that humans didn’t need God’s guidance.

According to Genesis, Adam and Eve had everything they needed in the Garden of Eden, but one tree was out of bounds for them—“the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.” By not eating from this tree, Adam and Eve would demonstrate their full trust in their Father, recognizing that he had the right to decide what was good and bad for his children (Genesis 2: 16,17).

Satan, lead by his selfish desire of being worshiped, told Eve that if she ate the forbidden fruit, she would not die, contradicting God, thus portraying Him as a liar. Satan accused God of being an unfit Ruler and implied that he, Satan, could do a better job.

Unfortunately Adam and Eve took Satan’s side and disobeyed God’s orders. Because of that they lost their protection from God and became imperfect. That imperfection was passed on to their descendants - the entire humankind.

The question raised by Satan was that he was a better ruler than God, so God decided to give him the opportunity to prove his point by letting him rule for a period of time. Since God knew that humans would not be able to have true freedom and happiness under the influence of Satan, He gave it a deadline. The ending date was not given to humans but we have God’s promise that he will end this system and bring in a new government, with the peace and justice that He had planned since the beginning. In Revelation 21: 4 we have one of the best known scriptures in the bible: “And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

It is hard to have to wait for better times but those of us who trust in God know that His promises never fail. We need to have patience and endure the difficulties that sometimes happen in our lives.
 
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Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But people do evil things and claim god is good, that they did those things in the name of god. I think that's what @sayak83 means by believers being deceived into thinking the god in which they believe is good while behaving in a manner that is not good due to a personal belief that the god in whom they believe has informed them to behave in such a manner. If a "good" god informs one to do something, as god had informed Abraham to kill his son, then is it not prudent for the believer to follow god's orders?

Unfortunately people say whatever is convenient for them and it is a lot easier to say "God told me to do it" even if there is no base for that statement whatsoever, than to take responsibility for their actions.
Abraham's story has particular details. First, consider that did not allow Abraham to go through with the sacrifice, even though Abraham was prepared to do so.
God knew that many centuries later, He would allow His own Son,Jesus, to die in our behalf. God wanted to convey to us just how much this sacrifice would cost Him.Consider God’s words to Abraham: “Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and . . . offer him up as a burnt offering.” (Genesis 22:2) Notice that God referred to Isaac as the son “whom you so love.” He knew how precious Isaac was to Abraham. God also knew how He felt about his Son, Jesus.
As we can imagine, that request would have grieved Abraham deeply; in a similar way, we can barely imagine the intense pain that God must have felt as he watched his beloved Son suffer and die.
There are no further requests in the bible from God asking people to kill other people, on the contrary. Even in the case of someone looking to make justice by their own hands, this is what God says in Romans 12:19 "do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’".
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
It's a serious question. I am reading a book on philosophy of religion so the question cropped up. Clearly a sufficiently powerful malevolent being can deceive any theist into thinking he is a good God. So how do you verify that your good is not a powerful malevolent being? In fact how do you no that God himself is not a malevolent being? Evidence and arguments welcome.

:)

Note:- This is a thread for those interested in discussing theological, metaphysical and philosophical arguments and evidence that justifies or negates various worldviews. If one is not interested in such things, that's perfectly fine and the thread is not for you. :)

I'm not sure how the argument of a grand deceiver is supposed to go...
If it is a deception, then by definition there must be some way in which it does not match reality.
If the deception is indistinguishable from reality in every way, then how can it be a deception?

That doesn't mean God is good. It merely points out that all deception is fallible.
It could be interesting to explore how people know their particular god is not a deception, because in theory any deception is fallible in some way.

A malevolent being would want us to enjoy some good so that sudden disasters are all the more devastating and shocking. Also, beings need to exist for them to suffer. So a malevolent being needs to create a universe where sentient beings can reproduce so that he gets a steady stream of beings on whom he can employ his malevolent designs.

This seems neither here nor there. He can't be entirely malevolent is He allows some good nor entirely benevolent if He allow some evil. I could just as easily take natural disasters as indication that a benevolent God needs some evil for His good to be known, which makes the perceptions of good and evil subjective opinions instead of objective facts. If good and evil are entirely subjective, then God's benevolence or malevolence is not an objective reality.
 
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