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Question for Moral Realists

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
As organisms evolved and started living in communities certain behaviors were beneficial for the well-being and survival of the individuals and the community and certain behaviors were detrimental. Some behaviors were selected for and some against. We call the beneficial acts moral and the detrimental acts immoral. Nobody subjectively told evolution to evolve us in that direction. That we share certain values and instincts and desires is just a natural part of being a certain evolved organism.

I agree there are likely evolutionary reasons for why we share a lot of basic values. That still doesn't mean it's true we ought to have them or false that we ought not to. There's still nothing about mind external reality that grounds the "oughts."

Altruism helps us survive, but as I've been saying, this just creates a microcosm. Ought we survive? Is it true we ought to survive? We can't justify that, it's still not truth-apt. We just sort of feel like we ought to, and that's fine.

I'm not attacking the way we feel -- I am a HUGE believer in altruism, freedom, comfort, etc. I will fight against selfishness and suffering with all my heart. I'm just attacking a specific philosophical position, moral realism, about what our moral feelings are. Either they're truths grounded in mind-external reality on some fundamental level, or they're not. It appears not.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I agree there are likely evolutionary reasons for why we share a lot of basic values. That still doesn't mean it's true we ought to have them or false that we ought not to. There's still nothing about mind external reality that grounds the "oughts."

Altruism helps us survive, but as I've been saying, this just creates a microcosm. Ought we survive? Is it true we ought to survive? We can't justify that, it's still not truth-apt. We just sort of feel like we ought to, and that's fine.

I'm not attacking the way we feel -- I am a HUGE believer in altruism, freedom, comfort, etc. I will fight against selfishness and suffering with all my heart. I'm just attacking a specific philosophical position, moral realism, about what our moral feelings are. Either they're truths grounded in mind-external reality on some fundamental level, or they're not. It appears not.
They are grounded in evolution. And evolution worked on organisms long before humans had evolved brains big enough to be able to start asking whether things are true or whether we ought to survive. "Ought to survive" was applicable from the existence of the first cell maybe even earlier. You can't get more fundamental than that.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
They are grounded in evolution. And evolution worked on organisms long before humans had evolved brains big enough to be able to start asking whether things are true or whether we ought to survive. "Ought to survive" was applicable from the existence of the first cell maybe even earlier. You can't get more fundamental than that.

There's a breakdown in communication here somewhere.

That our values (probably) have an evolutionary explanation to be as common as they are doesn't make those values true. It makes it true that they helped ancestors survive, but that's not the sort of grounding in mind-external reality moral realism requires. For instance it's easy to conceive of an experiment where a strange scientist, through artificial selection, breeds a group of creatures with different values that helped THEM survive. The moral realist would not find this acceptable, they would insist that there is a mind-independent list of morals that are true regardless of any circumstances, true in that they correspond somehow to reality.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I came here to fight Scots and chew bubblegum.

And I'm all out of gum
Scots & cats are natural enemies.
Like Englishmen & Scots.
Or Welshmen & Scots.
Or Japanese & Scots.
Or Scots & Other Scots.
Damn Scots!
They ruined Scotland!

 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I agree with you! But this doesn't speak towards realism. I think moral realism is less intuitive than a lot of people realize until it starts getting delved into.
May you point me out to a good definition or elaboration of moral realism?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I agree with you, and that's super sensible. Just doesn't help out moral realists.
Doesn't it? It allows for moral truths, which is what you asked for in the OP.

Also for the record, you're right that this discussion is more meta-ethical; but that's fine, it's still the subject I was after.
Then I think you're asking too much of moral realism. "Why should we be moral?" isn't a question that morality itself is going to be able to answer, and "X is moral" can be a moral truth without also establishing "we should do X, because X is moral." Once you establish "X is moral," you've established the moral truth.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
There's a breakdown in communication here somewhere.

That our values (probably) have an evolutionary explanation to be as common as they are doesn't make those values true. It makes it true that they helped ancestors survive, but that's not the sort of grounding in mind-external reality moral realism requires. For instance it's easy to conceive of an experiment where a strange scientist, through artificial selection, breeds a group of creatures with different values that helped THEM survive. The moral realist would not find this acceptable, they would insist that there is a mind-independent list of morals that are true regardless of any circumstances, true in that they correspond somehow to reality.
I don't understand what you mean or what a "moral realist" is supposed to mean. As LuisDantas says maybe your definition or an elaboration of moral realism would help. Or a simple example.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Indeed! But again, this just doesn't help out moral realism. We can agree on this all day long but the moral realist case still isn't made. That's okay -- I'm not saying that anything's missing or anything. I'm all about leaving this world a better place than when I entered it. I'm just making a case against a particular philosophical standpoint called moral realism.
Currently we are having a disagreement on what it means for morals to be real. But we seem to agree on the substance.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I don't think that they can. As a non-cognitivist, it seems to me that moral intuitions are based on values we happen to hold, like altruism, self-comfort, etc. I don't think we can justify a statement such as "we OUGHT to have those values." I think we DO have them, but they're just there; they're not truth-apt is my suspicion.
I don't see the two options as mutually exclusive. We certainly do seem to just instinctively have those characteristics (and individuals who don't are considered mentally deficient or ill) but that doesn't mean we can't also make rational arguments as to why those characteristics are positive (the very fact they've developed as instinctive animal characteristics being a good starting point).

After all, if someone said that punching a baby is OK, you'd be able to make some kind of actual argument against their position. You wouldn't be stuck with simply asserting that it's wrong because that's how you feel.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
For the table and perception -- it's still truth-apt either way (false is a truth value, and it's still true or false that the cup is on the table regardless of your perception).

It is a very common feeling that one should not hit babies, and I'm glad that it is because I agree with it and would work hard to ensure no one does hit babies: but it still doesn't seem to be arguable that it's "true."
I understand, what I wanted to understand was whether something truth=apt could be subjective. Maybe in the US it is truth-apt to say that one should not hit babies, because there is a law prohibiting battery. The law (or maybe the jail time) is what makes the statement true.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
May you point me out to a good definition or elaboration of moral realism?

I don't understand what you mean or what a "moral realist" is supposed to mean. As LuisDantas says maybe your definition or an elaboration of moral realism would help. Or a simple example.

Currently we are having a disagreement on what it means for morals to be real. But we seem to agree on the substance.

Doesn't it? It allows for moral truths, which is what you asked for in the OP.

Allow me to quote from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on the page about intrinsic value, as it's at the heart of moral realism -- I'll not be using RF's quote function for this just so any replies will automatically have it populate so you can refer to it when replying more easily:

"Suppose that someone were to ask you whether it is good to help others in time of need. Unless you suspected some sort of trick, you would answer, “Yes, of course.” If this person were to go on to ask you why acting in this way is good, you might say that it is good to help others in time of need simply because it is good that their needs be satisfied. If you were then asked why it is good that people's needs be satisfied, you might be puzzled. You might be inclined to say, “It just is.” Or you might accept the legitimacy of the question and say that it is good that people's needs be satisfied because this brings them pleasure. But then, of course, your interlocutor could ask once again, “What's good about that?” Perhaps at this point you would answer, “It just is good that people be pleased,” and thus put an end to this line of questioning. Or perhaps you would again seek to explain the fact that it is good that people be pleased in terms of something else that you take to be good.

At some point, though, you would have to put an end to the questions, not because you would have grown tired of them (though that is a distinct possibility), but because you would be forced to recognize that, if one thing derives its goodness from some other thing, which derives its goodness from yet a third thing, and so on, there must come a point at which you reach something whose goodness is not derivative in this way, something that “just is” good in its own right, something whose goodness is the source of, and thus explains, the goodness to be found in all the other things that precede it on the list. It is at this point that you will have arrived at intrinsic goodness (cf. Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, 1094a). That which is intrinsically good is nonderivatively good; it is good for its own sake.
"

The moral realist is explicitly making the argument that some things have intrinsic value -- something that has value "in its own sake" -- rather than extrinsic value, which is value that we minds place onto things.

So the answer to a question like this:

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Then I think you're asking too much of moral realism. "Why should we be moral?" isn't a question that morality itself is going to be able to answer, and "X is moral" can be a moral truth without also establishing "we should do X, because X is moral." Once you establish "X is moral," you've established the moral truth.

Is that yes, we get a sort of truth out of hypothetical imperatives: it is true that if we value altruism, then we ought not to punch babies. We've established X is moral, in 9-10ths_Penguin's words. But moral realism is about more than just establishing we can make truth statements about things related to morality. It's about WHY we're able to.

The realist would say it's because targets of altruism have an intrinsic value that isn't assigned by other minds; a value that just is mind-externally. For instance, a moral realist would say that even if humanity evolved under different circumstances such that we had different shared moral feelings because of the circumstances of evolution, that it wouldn't matter what our shared moral feelings are: there exists some concrete, objective standard of moral truths that are true regardless of whether we intuit them or not.

Does that help clear up anything? Sorry, I just sort of tagged all the similar questions in one response.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I don't see the two options as mutually exclusive. We certainly do seem to just instinctively have those characteristics (and individuals who don't are considered mentally deficient or ill) but that doesn't mean we can't also make rational arguments as to why those characteristics are positive (the very fact they've developed as instinctive animal characteristics being a good starting point).

After all, if someone said that punching a baby is OK, you'd be able to make some kind of actual argument against their position. You wouldn't be stuck with simply asserting that it's wrong because that's how you feel.

I should have also quoted you in my response just above, please refer to it (the one with the hunk of red text).

If you gave a reason for why not punching babies is good, you'd have to give a reason for that reason. And then a reason for that reason. And so one. You'd eventually either arrive to some sort of intrinsic value (and thus moral realism would be true), or you really WOULD just arrive to some sort of preference that just happens to exist in you (and thus moral skepticism of some kind must be the case, such as moral noncognitivism).
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Allow me to quote from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on the page about intrinsic value, as it's at the heart of moral realism -- I'll not be using RF's quote function for this just so any replies will automatically have it populate so you can refer to it when replying more easily:

"Suppose that someone were to ask you whether it is good to help others in time of need. Unless you suspected some sort of trick, you would answer, “Yes, of course.” If this person were to go on to ask you why acting in this way is good, you might say that it is good to help others in time of need simply because it is good that their needs be satisfied. If you were then asked why it is good that people's needs be satisfied, you might be puzzled. You might be inclined to say, “It just is.” Or you might accept the legitimacy of the question and say that it is good that people's needs be satisfied because this brings them pleasure. But then, of course, your interlocutor could ask once again, “What's good about that?” Perhaps at this point you would answer, “It just is good that people be pleased,” and thus put an end to this line of questioning. Or perhaps you would again seek to explain the fact that it is good that people be pleased in terms of something else that you take to be good.

At some point, though, you would have to put an end to the questions, not because you would have grown tired of them (though that is a distinct possibility), but because you would be forced to recognize that, if one thing derives its goodness from some other thing, which derives its goodness from yet a third thing, and so on, there must come a point at which you reach something whose goodness is not derivative in this way, something that “just is” good in its own right, something whose goodness is the source of, and thus explains, the goodness to be found in all the other things that precede it on the list. It is at this point that you will have arrived at intrinsic goodness (cf. Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, 1094a). That which is intrinsically good is nonderivatively good; it is good for its own sake.
"

The moral realist is explicitly making the argument that some things have intrinsic value -- something that has value "in its own sake" -- rather than extrinsic value, which is value that we minds place onto things.

So the answer to a question like this:



Is that yes, we get a sort of truth out of hypothetical imperatives: it is true that if we value altruism, then we ought not to punch babies. We've established X is moral, in 9-10ths_Penguin's words. But moral realism is about more than just establishing we can make truth statements about things related to morality. It's about WHY we're able to.

The realist would say it's because targets of altruism have an intrinsic value that isn't assigned by other minds; a value that just is mind-externally. For instance, a moral realist would say that even if humanity evolved under different circumstances such that we had different shared moral feelings because of the circumstances of evolution, that it wouldn't matter what our shared moral feelings are: there exists some concrete, objective standard of moral truths that are true regardless of whether we intuit them or not.

Does that help clear up anything? Sorry, I just sort of tagged all the similar questions in one response.
Cool. Only subjective well being that a person experiences in life (eudaimonia) has intrinsic value. Thus the ultimate motivation for morality comes from this.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Cool. Only subjective well being that a person experiences in life (eudaimonia) has intrinsic value. Thus the ultimate motivation for morality comes from this.

I would argue that our well being that we experience subjectively has extrinsic value -- value that we place on it rather than that exists mind-independently.

To the realist, a universe which didn't even contain minds or babies would still, somehow, have the truth that "one ought not to punch babies" because to the realist, moral truths are mind-independent.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I would argue that our well being that we experience subjectively has extrinsic value -- value that we place on it rather than that exists mind-independently.

To the realist, a universe which didn't even contain minds or babies would still, somehow, have the truth that "one ought not to punch babies" because to the realist, moral truths are mind-independent.
This is confusing, how can experiences exist without minds? Also, the experience of eating a juicy steak has intrinsic value to the dog even if Tommy cannot abstractly reflect on it like we can. I would say that experiential value is something that is inherent in the experiences themselves as they happen whether or not the being whose experience they are is capable of reflecting on them or not. At the same time they exist in minds (even if they are minds of fish) and can't be said to be mind independent.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
If you gave a reason for why not punching babies is good, you'd have to give a reason for that reason. And then a reason for that reason. And so one. You'd eventually either arrive to some sort of intrinsic value (and thus moral realism would be true), or you really WOULD just arrive to some sort of preference that just happens to exist in you (and thus moral skepticism of some kind must be the case, such as moral noncognitivism).
You would arrive back when atoms gathered together and became molecules and molecules gathered together and became first life and first life survived and replicated. Some collections of molecules survived and multiplied, some didn't. We are descendants of those who survived and multiplied. And for billions of years everything worked fine. But just in the last few thousands years an organism evolved a brain big enough to start contemplating whether one OUGHT to survive and multiply. Some called philosophers even claimed there's an is-ought problem. Why don't we just let them keep on debating this among themselves until they have all died childless of starvation since they can't tell if they ought to eat or not or produce offspring or not and the problem takes care of itself.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Moral realists argue that "true" morals have some kind of ontological existence in much the same sense that a tree is said to have some kind of ontological existence. That is, the tree exists apart from the mind, and -- to a moral realist -- true morals exist apart from the mind as well.

If morals exist apart from the mind, then it would logically follow that there could be a universe which did not contain minds, but in which true morals still existed, just as there could be a universe which did not contain minds but in which trees still existed.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree there are likely evolutionary reasons for why we share a lot of basic values. That still doesn't mean it's true we ought to have them or false that we ought not to. There's still nothing about mind external reality that grounds the "oughts."

Altruism helps us survive, but as I've been saying, this just creates a microcosm. Ought we survive? Is it true we ought to survive? We can't justify that, it's still not truth-apt. We just sort of feel like we ought to, and that's fine.

I'm not attacking the way we feel -- I am a HUGE believer in altruism, freedom, comfort, etc. I will fight against selfishness and suffering with all my heart. I'm just attacking a specific philosophical position, moral realism, about what our moral feelings are. Either they're truths grounded in mind-external reality on some fundamental level, or they're not. It appears not.
The question "ought we survive" does not arise. Those who are iffy about "ought we survive", survive less and thus the world is filled with those who do value survival. Thus the value "survival" is intrinsically self-reinforcing.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The question "ought we survive" does not arise. Those who are iffy about "ought we survive", survive less and thus the world is filled with those who do value survival. Thus the value "survival" is intrinsically self-reinforcing.

But that does not address the moral realist's position that morals exist ontologically, apart from the mind, as facts of the world in the same sense that a dog is a fact of the world.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But that does not address the moral realist's position that morals exist ontologically, apart from the mind, as facts of the world in the same sense that a dog is a fact of the world.
I am just saying that it is an objective mind-independent fact that the valuing of survival is self-reinforcing while the valuing of non-survival is self-negating as carriers of such values become infrequent over time. I have no idea what this entails to the realist non-realist argument of moral philosophy. That other more well informed folks here can say better as I haven't read much of moral philosophy.
 
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