Was Muhammad the final prophet?

adrian009 said:

The book of Revelations is arguably the most difficult book in the entire bible. There is certainly no agreement amongst Christians on a correct interpretation. However the book of Daniel that was written in a similar style during the Babylonian exile, has significant sections that most Christian scholars would agree provides a meaningful narrative based on history.

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Narratives are not prophesies though and what prophesies there are vague at best Imo.

Augustus said:

The Islamic Empires were majority Christian for around 400 years after the conquests, of course they had interest. Christianity wasn't a European religion.

Many Christian theologians such as Sebeos saw Islam in eschatological terms, for example in regard to the '4 beasts' of Daniel: “And behold, a fourth beast, terrible and dreadful and exceedingly strong; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet... this fourth beast, which arises from the south, is the kingdom of the sons of Ishmael.”

Also John of Damascus: "There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist."

Muhammad also seems to have been anticipating the 'hour' in the imminent future as part of his prophetic message.

The conquests later drove the iconoclastic movement in the Byzantine Empire, as they sought to consider why God had 'punished' them by allowing infidels to defeat them.

Eschatological fervour also increased as they approached the millennium of Christ's life, which many saw as a harbinger of the apocalypse. This is arguably one of the cause of the 1st Crusade, and especially the Peasants Crusade that preceded it.

In the centuries before and after the rise of Islam, eschatology was a major aspect of Abrahamic religious thought. This may have led to the rise of Islam, and the rise of Islam certainly didn't make Christians less concerned with the apocalypse.

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Thanks for your informative post. I am nowhere near as knowledgeable about this era but it does fall nicely in line with my own conjecture. It is a given that early Christian writers were abundantly aware of Islam and quite rightly, saw it as an imminent threat. How could they see it as anything but a threat? I should have made it clear by saying, "never connected the dots to Islam in a positive way" as Muslim scholars are prone to reading the texts. Ideas of Muhammad being the "comforter" probably did not fill many Christians hearts with much comfort.

DavidFirth said:

Take your drivel and spew it in another direction, dude, you have no idea what you're talking about. Don't quote Jesus from John, you would have gladly watched John rot on a cross had it been up to you. You don't believe what John wrote because if you did you'd know John 3:17 and what it says about you.

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John 3:17 has nothing to do with the World of Gentiles.

I'm showing you what remains of the words of Jesus pbuh, though all Secular Scholars will tell you, the anonymous Gospel attributed to a Greek man named John, is the least Historical when establishing what Jesus pbuh may or may not have said.

I think given your hostility, malfunction perhaps on the part of your 'Holy Spirit' it probably best we end the discussion.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It is the same Christ Spirit that Spoke through Muhammad.

The Bab and Baha'u'llah have also spoken of that same Spirit and the Promise of Christ is fulfilled, as also are the promises from all other Holy books including Koran and Hadith's.

It is to Baha'u'llah we must turn to find these keys of understanding.

Regards Tony

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Salam Tony, I'm aware of what you believe and have yet to find mention of Bab and Baha'ullah in Islamic texts. Though if they preached acceptance of all previous Prophets and worship of GOD alone, then it's all good.

Muslim-UK said:

John 3:17 has nothing to do with the World of Gentiles.

I'm showing you what remains of the words of Jesus pbuh, though all Secular Scholars will tell you, the anonymous Gospel attributed to a Greek man named John, is the least Historical when establishing what Jesus pbuh may or may not have said.

I think given your hostility, malfunction perhaps on the part of your 'Holy Spirit' it probably best we end the discussion.

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Sorry, I meant John 3:18, my bad.

Augustus said:

The Islamic Empires were majority Christian for around 400 years after the conquests, of course they had interest. Christianity wasn't a European religion.

Many Christian theologians such as Sebeos saw Islam in eschatological terms, for example in regard to the '4 beasts' of Daniel: “And behold, a fourth beast, terrible and dreadful and exceedingly strong; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet... this fourth beast, which arises from the south, is the kingdom of the sons of Ishmael.”

Also John of Damascus: "There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist."

Muhammad also seems to have been anticipating the 'hour' in the imminent future as part of his prophetic message.

The conquests later drove the iconoclastic movement in the Byzantine Empire, as they sought to consider why God had 'punished' them by allowing infidels to defeat them.

Eschatological fervour also increased as they approached the millennium of Christ's life, which many saw as a harbinger of the apocalypse. This is arguably one of the cause of the 1st Crusade, and especially the Peasants Crusade that preceded it.

In the centuries before and after the rise of Islam, eschatology was a major aspect of Abrahamic religious thought. This may have led to the rise of Islam, and the rise of Islam certainly didn't make Christians less concerned with the apocalypse.

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Thanks for that and for some well made points.

Of course Christians were concerned about Islam from an early stage as the Umayyad Caliphate (661 -750) spread rapidly with an empire that included an estimated 30% of the worlds population. This appears to have spread into Europe and many territories of the Eastern Orthodox Christians. After that we have the Abassids, not that I'm making any pretense about being an historian.

I'm sure there has always been the eschatological concern from the earliest days of Christianity with the expectation of Christs returning within a generation.

Mention of the bishop Sebeos (7th century) associating the fourth terrible beast in Daniel with Islam is pertinent. The terrifying beast in Daniel of course bears resemblence to the beast in Revelation 13.1 (Daniel 7:20).

As spoken to another, how do we know Islam doesn't form part of the apocalypse?

YmirGF said:

Thanks for your informative post. I am nowhere near as knowledgeable about this era but it does fall nicely in line with my own conjecture. It is a given that early Christian writers were abundantly aware of Islam and quite rightly, saw it as an imminent threat. How could they see it as anything but a threat?

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They conquered Spain and their conquests only stalled after they lost the Battle of Tours to Charles the Hammer. As with many battles, this was seen as Divine favour for Charles and against the 'Saracens'.

IIRC, Charles also exacted tribute from Muslim leaders in the years after their so he was certainly still aware of them.

YmirGF said:

I should have made it clear by saying, "never connected the dots to Islam in a positive way" as Muslim scholars are prone to reading the texts. Ideas of Muhammad being the "comforter" probably did not fill many Christians hearts with much comfort.

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They both scoured Biblical tradition to find 'predictions' of Muhammad and at the same time seem to have been interpreting their own scriptures in a way that distances them from the Christian environment that they appear to have developed in.

I suppose that is the way of supersessionist religions though, just as how a Jews like Jesus was Christianised over time but 'foretold' in Jewish scriptures.

England my lionheart said:

Narratives are not prophesies though and what prophesies there are vague at best Imo.

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That is right. Narratives are explanations and interpretations of prophecies that confirm faith in God for some, and belief in the foolishness of religion for others.

Magus said:

Prophet is synonym with Soothsayer or Psychic , so what did Muhammad prophesies ?

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He personally predicted the poor illiterate Arabs would compete with each other to build tall buildings, people would one day walk around with music coming from their heads, (headphones) people would travel in houses with luxurious soft saddles and alight outside of Mosques, (cars perhaps), he predicted Islam would conquer Damascus, Jerusalem, Iraq, Persia, Istanbul (Constantinople) and Cyprus, and that the religion would reach as far as the remotest corners of the world in the East and West. There are many more including, young men with foreign names would rise in Iraq and Syria claiming to be the best amongst the Muslims, but would be devils whom he would fight were he to live long enough to come across them.

Magus said:

The Moon also split into two.
Narrated Abdullah bin Masud: "During the lifetime of the Prophet the moon was split into two parts and on that the Prophet said, 'Bear witness (to thus).'"
Sahih Bukhari 4:56:830

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Ok yes I also saw multiple reports on the same subject recorded in the Hadiths:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The people of Mecca asked Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hira' mountain.

Hadith - Book of Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar) - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

So they looked up and saw what appeared to be the Moon splitting....

On 18 June 1178 five monks from the Canterbury Abbey reported that they saw a spectacular flash of light on the surface of the moon. The Canterbury chronicler, Fratello Gervase took the deposition of the five monks.

In his chronicles Gervase wrote:

“This year on the 18th of June, when the Moon, a slim crescent, first became visible, a marvelous phenomenon was seen by several men who were watching it. Suddenly, the upper horn of the crescent was split in two. From the mid point of the division, a flaming torch sprang up, spewing out over a considerable distance fire, hot coals and sparks. The body of the Moon which was below, writhed like a wounded snake. This happened a dozen times or more, and when the Moon returned to normal, the whole crescent took on a blackish appearance.”


18th June 1178 five non Muslims living thousands of miles away from Arabia report the following account: “This year on the 18th of June, when the Moon, a slim crescent, first became visible, a marvelous phenomenon was seen by several men who were watching it. Suddenly, the upper horn of the crescent was split in two. From the mid point of the division, a flaming torch sprang up, spewing out over a considerable distance fire, hot coals and sparks. The body of the Moon which was below, writhed like a wounded snake. This happened a dozen times or more, and when the Moon returned to normal, the whole crescent took on a blackish appearance.”

Canterbury monks witness creation of moon crater

NASA says these things do 'appear' to happen, and have tried to explain it as caused by meteorites. The Mysterious Case of Crater Giordano Bruno | Science Mission Directorate

Whether it was an eclipse or meteorite, both the Pagans in Arabia and others have reported seeing the moon 'appear' to split. It's a phenomena that happens from time to time.

Magus said:

Anything is possible with LSD

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It also helps being a Prophet, with GOD making all sorts of things appear to help things along.

Augustus said:

Philo discussed concepts like the Divine Logos, in the years before Jesus for example.

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That's right and Scholars have long thought the anonymous writer of John was heavily influenced by the writings of Philo, as evident with Jesus pbuh becoming the Logos. The intermediary between mortals and the Divine.

Logos (Christianity) - Wikipedia

YmirGF said:

It is a given that early Christian writers were abundantly aware of Islam and quite rightly, saw it as an imminent threat. How could they see it as anything but a threat? I should have made it clear by saying, "never connected the dots to Islam in a positive way" as Muslim scholars are prone to reading the texts. Ideas of Muhammad being the "comforter" probably did not fill many Christians hearts with much comfort.

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The followers of Jesus pbuh embraced Islam en-mass in the 7th Century seeing it as a fulfilment of the promises made by Jesus pbuh and the prophecies found in the Torah. This further affirmed a Prophecy found within the Qur'an:

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." Qur'an 3:55

O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED. Qur'an 61:14

Here are those 7th Century true followers of Jesus pbuh:

The Ebionites: True followers of Jesus who converted to Islam

adrian009 said:

How do you know there are not references to Islam in the book of revelations.

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I would have liked if the Qur'an were inspired by God. This is not my position, and I have read half of it - couldn't get through the material: too boring for me.

The main point about the Qur'an and also the LDS material we have is simple. The apostle John gave us a warning and a way to know what to accept:
So, all things new must be tested against the inspired material we already have. If there is contradiction, it must not be accepted. The Qur'an claims that God has no sons, that Jesus didn't die and that he isn't our ransom. Its message is one of anti-christ, speaking against all things we know Christ to be.

Muslim-UK said:

Salam Tony, I'm aware of what you believe and have yet to find mention of Bab and Baha'ullah in Islamic texts. Though if they preached acceptance of all previous Prophets and worship of GOD alone, then it's all good.

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So knowing the Baha'i position what is the evidence that Muhammad was the final prophet?

Muslim-UK said:

The followers of Jesus pbuh embraced Islam en-mass in the 7th Century seeing it as a fulfilment of the promises made by Jesus pbuh and the prophecies found in the Torah.

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Going by the writings of the time, significant conversion from Christianity didn't seem to begin until the 2nd half of the 8th C.

They be no Abrahamic religion without Homer and Plato .

Here is the original Bible-Quran-Torah


Plagiarism much?

Grandliseur said:

I would have liked if the Qur'an were inspired by God. This is not my position, and I have read half of it - couldn't get through the material: too boring for me.

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I get bored sometimes reading the OT. I still recognise its inspired by God and acknowledge I have a short attention span, especially if I don't properly understand something.

Grandliseur said:

The main point about the Qur'an and also the LDS material we have is simple. The apostle John gave us a warning and a way to know what to accept:
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

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So we investigate Muhammad's claims to be a prophet. The first test for a Christian is to consider the words of Jesus, and He says a good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree bad fruit (Matthew 7:17-20, Luke 6:43-45). Islam has positively influenced the lives of millions of its followers. We can look at the bad behaviour of some Muslims, but Christians haven't lived up to its ideals through-out history either.

Grandliseur said:

So, all things new must be tested against the inspired material we already have. If there is contradiction, it must not be accepted. The Qur'an claims that God has no sons, that Jesus didn't die and that he isn't our ransom. Its message is one of anti-christ, speaking against all things we know Christ to be.

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So isn't the anti-Christ in revelation?

Why is Islam an antichrist, just because its theology differs from Christianity? Isn't that strong wording, especially considering the religions have much more in common than not?

Its good you mention some specific differences. Is it possible that the followers of one or the other religion misunderstood their founder?

Thank you in advance for answering my questions.

adrian009 said:

That is right. Narratives are explanations and interpretations of prophecies that confirm faith in God for some, and belief in the foolishness of religion for others.

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Good post,up to today nobody has prophesised anything.

adrian009 said:

I get bored sometimes reading the some of the OT. I still recognise it as being inspired by God and have to acknowledge I have a short attention span, especially if I don't properly understand something.

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Why are counterfeit books (Bible-Torah-Quran) inspired by God and yet the Lliad , written in the 8th century BCE predating all Abrahamic literature is not?

How about the preserved Book of the Dead dating 1275 BCE and it is ORIGINAL , Why is this not inspired by God?

Why is this preserved in it's original glory?

If Bible-Quran are so holy, why didn't 'God preserve the ORIGINALS , Where is the Original Quran written by Muhammad? Where is it?

That is the problem with Abraham religions, their entire religion is based on counterfeit unoriginal documents.

Magus said:

Why are counterfeit books (Bible-Torah-Quran) inspired by God and yet the Lliad , written in the 8th century BCE predating all Abrahamic literature is not?

How about the preserved Book of the Dead dating 1275 BCE and it is ORIGINAL , Why is this not inspired by God?

Why is this preserved in it's original glory?

If Bible-Quran are so holy, why didn't 'God preserve the ORIGINALS , Where is the Original Quran written by Muhammad? Where is it?

That is the problem with Abraham religions, their entire religion is based on counterfeit unoriginal documents.

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The book of the dead is very interesting,in it you can seen "the commandments".