Mankind's rebellion against God

Deeje · Sep 29, 2017

PopeADope said:
Yes I do believe the evil is God's will, and I believe Satan and the Fallen Angels do God's will

Actually, the devil and his hordes do perform a service but their intervention was not originally in God's plan for the human race.....but once rebellion had taken place and a knowledge of evil was 'unleashed' there was no taking it back (there is no erase button in the human brain....its all on 'record')......so God used it to test his human and his angelic creation, both of whom he endowed with free will. The end result will be a family of tried and tested "sons and daughters" on earth along with only faithful angels left in heaven......brilliant! because there will never be a time when God's rightful sovereignty can ever be questioned again.

Spiderman · Sep 29, 2017

Deeje said:
Actually, the devil and his hordes do perform a service but their intervention was not originally in God's plan for the human race.....but once rebellion had taken place and a knowledge of evil was 'unleashed' there was no taking it back (there is no erase button in the human brain....its all on 'record')......so God used it to test his human and his angelic creation, both of whom he endowed with free will. The end result will be a family of tried and tested "sons and daughters" on earth along with only faithful angels left in heaven......brilliant! because there will never be a time when God's rightful sovereignty can ever be questioned again.

Yes it was in God's plan for the human race because God knew which Angels would rebel before he ever made them... If it wasn't part of his plan , he would have never made them in the first place.

Deeje · Sep 29, 2017

PopeADope said:
Yes it was in God's plan for the human race because God knew which Angels would rebel before he ever made them... If it wasn't part of his plan , he would have never made them in the first place.

LOL...then there is no such thing as free will....and we are not made in God's image at all....Jesus died for nothing....and we will never have anything more to look forward to than what mankind can accomplish on his own.
If there is no purpose to our life and no hope beyond our death.....then what are we doing here?

If Jesus wasn't raised from the dead, then no one else will be either....as Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 15:32...."...If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.”

What a pointless existence!

Spiderman · Sep 29, 2017

Deeje said:
LOL...then there is no such thing as free will....and we are not made in God's image at all....Jesus died for nothing....and we will never have anything more to look forward to than what mankind can accomplish on his own.
If there is no purpose to our life and no hope beyond our death.....then what are we doing here?

If Jesus wasn't raised from the dead, then no one else will be either....as Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 15:32...."...If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.”

What a pointless existence!

What I said did not cancel out free will, making the rest of your post pointless

Deeje · Sep 29, 2017

PopeADope said:
What I said did not cancel out free will, making the rest of your post pointless

You said....."it was in God's plan for the human race because God knew which Angels would rebel before he ever made them... If it wasn't part of his plan , he would have never made them in the first place."

If God already planned what angels and humans would do then it does cancel out free will. It means that satan never had a choice, the demons never had a choice and Adam and his wife didn't either......once their choices were made, then and only then did God respond to them.

Spiderman · Sep 29, 2017

Deeje said:
You said....."it was in God's plan for the human race because God knew which Angels would rebel before he ever made them... If it wasn't part of his plan , he would have never made them in the first place."

If God already planned what angels and humans would do then it does cancel out free will. It means that satan never had a choice, the demons never had a choice and Adam and his wife didn't either......once their choices were made, then and only then did God respond to them.

I'm saying it had to be part of God's plan , because he knew it would all happen before he ever made them... How could God plan on Satan being his obedient instrument, if he knew before he created him that he would rebel? That could never have been God's plan that Satan would be his obedient instrument... Otherwise God would have just made the angels that he knew would be obedient instruments

The Emperor of Mankind · Sep 29, 2017

Enoch07 said:
But thats just it. God allows for free will by allowing a margin for it.

But he doesn't allow us to choose something unexpected to him.

We still have the freedom to change our minds and make our own decisions as individuals. While still not interfering with God's own will. The Book of Job is probably the best example.

That's actually a point in my favour. You've already put a limit on our allegedly 'free' will. It's impossible to choose something that interfere's with God's will. God allowed Satan to mess with Job's life because he knew beforehand that Job would not turn against him. Job was fated to obey God. The same with Jonah; because God knew he would disobey and try to flee, Jonah was fated to do that. And God punished him anyway.

An even better point in my favour is Exodus and the account of Pharaoh. God actively interferes with Pharaoh's free will by hardening his heart so he will not let the Israelites leave, even after Moses shows him the signs.

He sees all possiblities and the ramifications of each, and had allowed for all of it. Hence what I said before.

But 'allowing for it' doesn't really mean anything significant while God is still omniscient.

Ah but characters in a book are fictitious. They have no consciousnes. We are not characters in a book. We living breathing people with free will to chose and live as we see fit.

This argument would put your reference to Biblical characters to rest

But I'll assume for the sake of argument that the Bible's characters are real.

And characters within a book do have a consciousness but strictly within the context of the story. Clearly you've never seen the sort of things Harry Potter fans have been up to in the decade or so since the last book came out. It's unreal. They've been de-constructing the characters personas based on their experiences and how they react in given situations. Believe me, their personalities are as complex as any flesh & blood person, and I think that's what Rowling intended.

It's a fallacy because you don't understand how free will works inside of God's will.

If that's true then neither do you or any other human. That's a core Christian doctrine, isn't it? That God is so gargantuan, so monolithic, so hopelessly complex that it's impossible for us to fully or truly understand him.

Repox · Sep 29, 2017

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
I hear it too. It's like God is a snowflake Who can't stand honest criticism.

A car manufacturer WOULD be to blame if the cars from that company kept bursting into flames or being unable to stop.

.

Yes, but car manufacturers have no supernatural powers, they are not perfect, they have no deity competition, and they are not eternal. God's creatures have free will, they can oppose or accept the will of God, and there is no guarantee if they are defective.

Hawkins · Sep 29, 2017

PopeADope said:
I hear so much about Mankind's Rebellion against God. I hear that all of the Worlds problems are the result of Mankind's Rebellion against God.

So why does God give people rebellious hearts? God could give everybody the same heart and mind he gave John the Baptist and the Virgin Mary and people would behave like that.

So why does God want us to be so rebellious?

I pray to God unceasingly to have a healthy heart and mind with understanding , so that I make good choices and do his will. God refuses to provide the grace. Why? It's because God wants me to be broken, insane, impulsive, perverted, anxious, cynical, depressed, and confused. If God didn't want me that way, he would easily heal me.

I've prayed to God that I wouldn't troll on RF... sometimes my immaturity and impulsivity leads me to relapse.

I'm thinking about throwing my phone in the lake because I can't seem to moderate my internet addiction.

I'm too impulsive... No matter how much I prayed to God to relieve me of my impulsivity and defects, I get little help. I've come to the conclusion that God wants me to have these defects. The question is why? My answer to that question is to keep me humble (I guess).

People are naturally inclined to rebel against God. It isn't their fault that they're naturally inclined that way , it's God's fault. God could give them a healthy heart and Mind , and he refuses, thus he is responsible for the Rebellion.

Religion is severely divided, and those who seek the truth are coming to opposite conclusions.

God is at fault for that as well, because he could speak to everybody that seeks the truth, give them Clarity , and protect them from delusion, and he refuses to.

I feel justified in my resentment and grievances against God! He is clearly responsible for Mankind's rebellion , and responsible for all of the world's misery.

The damage Satan and the Fallen Angels do is also God's fault... God knew before he made them that they would Rebel and cause problems. He could have never made them in the first place.

He could protect us from them deceiving us and leading us astray and he refuses. God is at fault for human frailty! It's friggin obvious!

You miss the whole point. God allows all sort of evil to plague this world such that evil can be exposed openly under witnessing and be destroyed once and for all in order to secure the eternal Heaven.

This world is under the deep influence of the devil, so if it's your choice to be sided with the devil then you will be removed such that the future eternal Heaven is clean.

RedDragon94 · Sep 29, 2017

Rinchen Samphel said:
All I'm saying is, if I dont want my kids to become addicted to heroin, I wouldn't keep some in their room and tell them not to use it... If God didn't want them to eat the fruit of that tree, why put it there?

All I'm saying is, heroin exists. Your children will have to make the same choice Adam and Eve did in that way.

RedDragon94 · Sep 29, 2017

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
Except that disobeying was bad. You had to eat the Magic Fruit to get that upgrade.

No, he knew that when God gave the command.

Rinchen · Sep 29, 2017

RedDragon94 said:
All I'm saying is, heroin exists. Your children will have to make the same choice Adam and Eve did in that way.

Yeah... good one... [/sarcasm]

So that's what your god does? Puts things that are not good for us and against our wellbeing in our faces so we can choose not to use it?

Obviously your God's will is more important than the happiness of his creation.

The problem is, if you parented children based off of your God's decision making skills, his level of revenge, and his need to constantly purify his creation because he decided to give them the choice to be impure and then comdemn them to hell, child protective services would most likely take them away.

RedDragon94 · Sep 29, 2017

Rinchen Samphel said:
Obviously your God's will is more important than the happiness of his creation.

... Yes.

Deeje · Sep 29, 2017

Rinchen Samphel said:
Yeah... good one... [/sarcasm]

So that's what your god does? Puts things that are not good for us and against our wellbeing in our faces so we can choose not to use it?

Obviously your God's will is more important than the happiness of his creation.

The problem is, if you parented children based off of your God's decision making skills, his level of revenge, and his need to constantly purify his creation because he decided to give them the choice to be impure and then comdemn them to hell, child protective services would most likely take them away.

You do understand that you are talking about Christendom's version of God in what you said here....?

The God of the Bible does not resemble that description in any way. Like all good parents he wants his children to be responsible for their actions. He wants them to understand the reason for rules and why they are implemented for our good.
Give a child total freedom and you will rue the day you ever did. Freedom within reasonable limits is always the best policy. God is not a "helicopter" parent (hovering and smothering)....nor is he a "lawnmower" parent (the kind who clears away all obstacles in the path so that no lessons can be learned).....he watches over our decisions and allows us to make mistakes and learn from them.

Free will is a gift....but when it is abused, it becomes a curse.

RedDragon94 · Sep 29, 2017

Rinchen Samphel said:
So that's what your god does? Puts things that are not good for us and against our wellbeing in our faces so we can choose not to use it?

Is reality so bland?

Rinchen Samphel said:
The problem is, if you parented children based off of your God's decision making skills, his level of revenge, and his need to constantly purify his creation because he decided to give them the choice to be impure and then comdemn them to hell, child protective services would most likely take them away.

Well, we're not talking about an average parent. Are we?

Rinchen · Sep 29, 2017

RedDragon94 said:
Is reality so bland?

For Adam and Eve, it seems....

RedDragon94 said:
Well, we're not talking about an average parent. Are we?

nope, thank god...

Rinchen · Sep 29, 2017

Deeje said:
You do understand that you are talking about Christendom's version of God in what you said here....?

The God of the Bible does not resemble that description in any way. Like all good parents he wants his children to be responsible for their actions. He wants them to understand the reason for rules and why they are implemented for our good.
Give a child total freedom and you will rue the day you ever did. Freedom within reasonable limits is always the best policy. God is not a "helicopter" parent (hovering and smothering)....nor is he a "lawnmower" parent (the kind who clears away all obstacles in the path so that no lessons can be learned).....he watches over our decisions and allows us to make mistakes and learn from them.

Free will is a gift....but when it is abused, it becomes a curse.

That last part, I agree with. 100%. However I just dont see the point of God creating this world and then saying, because its our fault of course (free will), that many of us are going to hell because we dont accept his teachings.

But, eh. if a belief in God keeps your mind open and compassionate, then have at it yo

Deeje · Sep 30, 2017

Rinchen said:
That last part, I agree with. 100%. However I just dont see the point of God creating this world and then saying, because its our fault of course (free will), that many of us are going to hell because we dont accept his teachings.

Well, again you are referring to Christendom's version of things. There is no "hell" in the Bible. God does not need or desire to torment anyone forever in flames. What is that supposed to accomplish? How is justice ever served by doing that? The only punishments that God meted out to his people were designed to correct them, leading them to repent, not to just to punish them for the sake of it. As Creator we believe that he has the right to set the rules.

"Hell" in the Bible is "sheol" ("hades") which is simply mankind's common grave. There is no conscious existence in that place.
We all go to hell. It is a place of rest from which God can resurrect those whom he chooses. Since it will be a resurrection of "both the righteous and the unrighteous", that only leaves the wicked to sleep forever, not considered worthy of a restoration to life. This is what the Bible teaches. Life or death....those are the only options.

But, eh. if a belief in God keeps your mind open and compassionate, then have at it yo

An open mind is a good thing....it means not making assumptions about what others believe until you check. I ditched Christendom decades ago.....it was the best thing I have ever done.

The Emperor of Mankind · Sep 30, 2017

lostwanderingsoul said:
Think of it as a test. God gave people the ability to make choices. Adam and Eve had a choice. They could listen to God and not eat the fruit or they could listen to Satan and eat it.

Except they weren't able to distinguish right from wrong until after they had eaten the forbidden fruit so why were they punished? That's the whole point of the tree being there; it was meant to be eaten from. Which, combined with the Christian god's reputed omniscience, implies God entrapped Adam & Eve into eating from the fruit.

Notanumber · Sep 30, 2017

A Greased Scotsman said:
Except they weren't able to distinguish right from wrong until after they had eaten the forbidden fruit so why were they punished? That's the whole point of the tree being there; it was meant to be eaten from. Which, combined with the Christian god's reputed omniscience, implies God entrapped Adam & Eve into eating from the fruit.

A bit sneaky to say the least. Hardly someone to look up to.

Mankind's rebellion against God

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