Was Muhammad the final prophet?

BilliardsBall · Sep 27, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Yes, for example Jesus pbuh was born of a virgin, and then someone twists the verse found in a earlier book and presents it as a Prophecy. Or Jesus pbuh is said to have been crucified in 33 A.D. and someone writes a Gospel around 70 A.D. in which they claim, Jesus pbuh predicted the event a year before the 'alleged' event.

Can you quote the relevant verse for me to check that.

Firstly could you show either the OT or NT claiming to be revelation from God and secondly I refer you to the reason given in the Qur'an itself:

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers. Qur'an 5:44

...And we're back to Jesus being a prophet and Muslims not doing what He says to do!

Why post a verse showing false prophets come in Jesus's name and use His name, when you disregard any verses that make you uncomfortable because they've been "corrupted"?

Why would I need to show OT and NT claiming to be God's revelation when they say THOUSANDS of times in the Bible, "This is the Word of God"?

I understand you have a Qu'ranic reason why the Bible is corrupted, but we're back to:

1) How do you know which verses are corrupted and which aren't?

2) If some Bible parts/verses are uncorrupted, why do Muslims follow NONE of the Bible?

3) How is it that Allah is able to keep the Qu'ran perfect but unable to stop tiny little rabbis and scholars from corrupting the Bible?

Muslim-UK · Sep 27, 2017

BilliardsBall said:
...And we're back to Jesus being a prophet and Muslims not doing what He says to do!

Muslims follow the teachings of Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him.

BilliardsBall said:
Why post a verse showing false prophets come in Jesus's name and use His name, when you disregard any verses that make you uncomfortable because they've been "corrupted"?

Because in my many years of conversing with Christians, I've learnt to double check the verses and understand the context.

BilliardsBall said:
Why would I need to show OT and NT claiming to be God's revelation when they say THOUSANDS of times in the Bible, "This is the Word of God"?

The majority of Atheists in the West are from Christian backgrounds, and they having read the Bible reject it as being the 'word of God'. So either their criticism is valid, and indeed supported by many Western Scholars or they have all simply misunderstood the book. We can take a closer look at this if you like.

BilliardsBall said:
I understand you have a Qu'ranic reason why the Bible is corrupted, but we're back to:

1) How do you know which verses are corrupted and which aren't?

The Qur'an says it is a criterion over the previous Scriptures, hence what matches is accepted as being from God. All passages enjoining right and forbidding evil are also accepted as most likely being from God. Stories on creation and slander of Prophets are rejected as fabrications, and what remains is assessed case by case with a open mind.

BilliardsBall said:
2) If some Bible parts/verses are uncorrupted, why do Muslims follow NONE of the Bible?

Muslims follow the most important Commandments found in the Bible, as it is the same message since Adam and Eve, may God be pleased with them, were taught:

Worship GOD alone <<<< Most important of ALL the Commandments
Do not Kill, steal, commit adultery etc etc
The other thing we do is obey GOD when he tells Bible readers to follow His Prophets when He sends them, and anyone who doesn't will be held accountable.

Notice Jews reject Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them.
Christians reject Muhammad pbuh

Only the Muslims accept all the Prophets without question.

BilliardsBall said:
3) How is it that Allah is able to keep the Qu'ran perfect but unable to stop tiny little rabbis and scholars from corrupting the Bible?

Simple, those messages were for a 'certain' people during a specific period in History, whereas the Qur'an is for all time. Hence Islam is a complete way of life and covers all aspects of public and private life.

loverofhumanity · Sep 27, 2017

PopeADope said:
Did Muhammad (peace be upon him) claim that no prophets would come after him?
Is it in the Koran? If so, does that mean no one who comes after him will have the gift of prophecy?

Also, Why is it not okay to criticize the prophet? Surely he made mistakes... can't a person, even a Muslim, be critical and say marriage of a middle-aged man to a prepubescent girl is low and should be outlawed?

Even if a person accepts him as a prophet, can't they also say he made serious mistakes?

Hi pope how are you doing? Firstly I want to say the Quran is so beautiful and I believe fully in it as the Word of God and Muhammas as His Prophet.

It says in the Quran that Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets, but interpretations tend to add what’s not there.

So in the Bible it says Christ is the way but Christians have turned it into ONLY way which it doesn’t say. Huge difference.

With the Quran, Muslims have interpreted “Seal of the Prophets” FOREVER. Note that the Quran does not state forever.

So what was Muhammad last Prophet of! Was He the Last Prophet until the Day of Resurrection? Or the Last Prophet until the Great Announcement when there will be two blasts on the trumpet? Or Last Prophet of the Prophetic Cycle? Or Last Prophet of the Adamic cycle?

Q Have the revelations of God ceased with Muhammad? Is the Quran the last Book?

Sura 31:27

If all the trees that are upon the earth were to become pens, and if God should after that swell the sea into seven seas of ink, His words would not be exhausted: for God is Mighty, Wise.

If Muhammad was the Last Prophet “forever” Who then is this?

Sura 89:23

and thy LORD shall come, and the angels rank by rank; and hell, on that day, shall be brought nigh: on that day shall man call to remembrance his evil deeds;

Sura 39:69

the trumpet shall be sounded, and whoever are in heaven, and whoever are on earth, shall expire; except those whom GOD shall please to exempt from the common fate. Afterwards it shall be sounded again; and behold, they shall arise and look up. And the earth shall shine by the light of its LORD: and the book shall be laid open, and the

Two trumpets. Two great announcements ? Two Prophets?

Sura 50:41

And hearken unto the day whereon the crier shall call men to judgment from a near place: the day whereon they shall hear the voice of the trumpet in truth: this will be the day of men's coming forth from their graves:

So Someone is definitely coming after Muhammad. He’s not the Last Prophet FOREVER. That is wrongfully inserted.

There’s much more evidence which points to two Prophets appearing and one in the ‘Abode of Peace’ (Baghdad) I believe that to be Baha’u’llah.

MohammadPali · Sep 27, 2017

Shia Islam said:
As-Salamu Alaikum brother,
You know, the debate between the Shiites and the Sunnis is centuries old..

I spent many many years debating the Sunnis...

We both agree that one of us is misguided.. We can't be both right..

For me..after all of this years...i came to a conclusion: which is that people, of any religion, are of two types:
1. those who are after the reason and following the evidences...
These people don't need to be debated..they will follow the truth when they see it!

2. those who follow their emotions...
and there is no need to debate these people too..

So there is no need or use of debating anybody!

however, since you sound a respected person i will post quick replies to your post..although i went thru it very quickly, as i found it long!

here are your main points with their replies..i wish i did not miss any:

1. does it make sense that he (Abu bakr) would usurp (the caliphate) and not give it to his son ?

Answer: He usurped it with the help of Umar, who was sharing power with him.. Indeed Umar might have poisoned Abu Bakr (some scholars think so).

2. Ali named his sons ABU BAKR, OMAR, UTHMAN.

Answer: Even the Sunnis admit the enmity between Ali and those people..
Abu bakr was not the name of the first Caliph..his name was Ateeq.
Umar gave his own name to one of imam Ali Sons..
Ali named his son Uthman after Uthman bin Mathoon. He mentioned this.

3. Uthman married 2 daughters of the rasul pbuh,

These two girls were married before to the Sons of Abu-Lahab the Kafir..
Also it is not sure if they are the daughters of the prophet..
And also..Uthman was mistreating them and and has killed them according to what i remember..

And also, even according to many Sunni scholars, 'Uthman was a deviant man who was killed by the great Sahaba (r.a.).

And as of the myth that Shia islam was made up by a Jewish man called Ibn Sabaa, i wont waste time replying to it..

Uthman r.a helped ali get married. Brother listen, ali r.a when he wanted to marry fatima, the rasul pbuh asked ali, do you have the dowry ? the mehir ? The promise of payment to the bride ? Remember dowry is a promise and protection to brides. Ali said he didn't because he was poor. So he wanted to get the dowry, but he had no money. So what did he do ? He went to the markets to sell his shield. Who comes along in the markets ? Uthman ibn affan. r.a . He saw ali r.a and asked him, ali what are you doing ? Ali told him I want to get married to fatima r.a the daughter of rasul pbuh, but I have no money so im selling my shield. So Uthman bought ali's shield. So now ali has money for the mehir/dowry.

When the wedding came, uthman gifted the shield back to ali r.a . This is such a loveable man, they loved each other brother. All the companions loved each other, and the rasul pbuh chose the best kind and past on the beauty and knowledge to them, even though they are not prophets. These were rightly guided men.

ALSO, another thing about abu bakr r.a and why hes not an usurper, because ali r.a married abu bakrs wife after he passed. And abu bakrs wife washed fatimas body when she passed. The animosity that talked about from the shia is not true at all.

ALSO omar r.a married the daughter of ALI r.a if Ali disliked omar, why would he give one of his dauthers to omar ? You see brother ?

And its not the fact that one of us is wrong and one of is true. We are one umma. The rasul pbuh said that my umma(progeny) will split into 73 sects. MY UMMA, meaning everyone who believes in allah swt. So this idea that this one is shia, and this one is sunni, and this one is salafi, and this one is suffi, or bhai, forget this sects non-sense, we are all ONE UMMA, and we should stop calling each others by sects and say we are MUSLIM's instead, and that is more than sufficient.

Muslim-UK · Sep 27, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
It says in the Quran that Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets, but interpretations tend to add what’s not there.

Seal, final. No more after him. The book is for all time and believers would receive dreams of glad tidings.

loverofhumanity said:
With the Quran, Muslims have interpreted “Seal of the Prophets” FOREVER. Note that the Quran does not state forever.

What happens when you Seal a letter? No more additions right.

loverofhumanity said:
So what was Muhammad last Prophet of! Was He the Last Prophet until the Day of Resurrection? Or the Last Prophet until the Great Announcement when there will be two blasts on the trumpet? Or Last Prophet of the Prophetic Cycle? Or Last Prophet of the Adamic cycle?

Last until trumpet is blown, thereafter no more mankind will be created.

loverofhumanity said:
Q Have the revelations of God ceased with Muhammad? Is the Quran the last Book?

Sura 31:27

If all the trees that are upon the earth were to become pens, and if God should after that swell the sea into seven seas of ink, His words would not be exhausted: for God is Mighty, Wise.

If Muhammad was the Last Prophet “forever” Who then is this?

Nothing in that verse about a Prophet. It's talking about God's knowledge.

loverofhumanity said:
Sura 89:23

and thy LORD shall come, and the angels rank by rank; and hell, on that day, shall be brought nigh: on that day shall man call to remembrance his evil deeds;

This is talking about Judgement day when everyone will see their Lord GOD.

loverofhumanity said:
Sura 39:69

the trumpet shall be sounded, and whoever are in heaven, and whoever are on earth, shall expire; except those whom GOD shall please to exempt from the common fate. Afterwards it shall be sounded again; and behold, they shall arise and look up. And the earth shall shine by the light of its LORD: and the book shall be laid open, and the

Two trumpets. Two great announcements ? Two Prophets?

First trumpet and everything turns to dust, except whom GOD exempts. When the second trumpet sounds everyone will rise from the dust for judgement, hence books laid open. Nothing here about 2 prophets.

loverofhumanity said:
Sura 50:41

And hearken unto the day whereon the crier shall call men to judgment from a near place: the day whereon they shall hear the voice of the trumpet in truth: this will be the day of men's coming forth from their graves:

So Someone is definitely coming after Muhammad. He’s not the Last Prophet FOREVER. That is wrongfully inserted.

The crier is a Angel Servant of GOD. No Prophet here.

loverofhumanity said:
There’s much more evidence which points to two Prophets appearing and one in the ‘Abode of Peace’ (Baghdad) I believe that to be Baha’u’llah.

Incorrect. Sure you can choose to follow people who came after Muhammad pbuh, but most people want to know who these people were and what evidence they brought showing they were indeed sent by GOD.

If they taught Monotheism and enjoined people to eat what is lawful, abstain from what is forbidden, accepted the Scriptures and past Prophets, then it could be you are ok in the sight of God.

Shia Islam · Sep 27, 2017

MohammadPali said:
Uthman r.a helped ali get married. Brother listen, ali r.a when he wanted to marry fatima, the rasul pbuh asked ali, do you have the dowry ? the mehir ? The promise of payment to the bride ? Remember dowry is a promise and protection to brides. Ali said he didn't because he was poor. So he wanted to get the dowry, but he had no money. So what did he do ? He went to the markets to sell his shield. Who comes along in the markets ? Uthman ibn affan. r.a . He saw ali r.a and asked him, ali what are you doing ? Ali told him I want to get married to fatima r.a the daughter of rasul pbuh, but I have no money so im selling my shield. So Uthman bought ali's shield. So now ali has money for the mehir/dowry.

When the wedding came, uthman gifted the shield back to ali r.a . This is such a loveable man, they loved each other brother. All the companions loved each other, and the rasul pbuh chose the best kind and past on the beauty and knowledge to them, even though they are not prophets. These were rightly guided men.

ALSO, another thing about abu bakr r.a and why hes not an usurper, because ali r.a married abu bakrs wife after he passed. And abu bakrs wife washed fatimas body when she passed. The animosity that talked about from the shia is not true at all.

ALSO omar r.a married the daughter of ALI r.a if Ali disliked omar, why would he give one of his dauthers to omar ? You see brother ?

And its not the fact that one of us is wrong and one of is true. We are one umma. The rasul pbuh said that my umma(progeny) will split into 73 sects. MY UMMA, meaning everyone who believes in allah swt. So this idea that this one is shia, and this one is sunni, and this one is salafi, and this one is suffi, or bhai, forget this sects non-sense, we are all ONE UMMA, and we should stop calling each others by sects and say we are MUSLIM's instead, and that is more than sufficient.

Brother,
We Shiite read a lot of the Sunni resources..

You Sunnis tend not to What the Shiites write..

All the points you mentioned are Centuries old debate topics..
Among the Shia/Sunni debates that I read wholly or partly..
1. Al Murajaat.
2. Peshawer nights.
3. Then I was guided.
4. Many of the books written by those who converted to Shia Islam.

brother..
Just read about these two topics:
1. As Saqifa conference (after the death of the prophet)..
2. The last moments of the prophet life...That is when Umar said the prophet is hallucinating!

Just ask yourself...how the So called Shura Islamic System..became a hereditary system under the Ummayds and the Abbasids?

Why the Caliphs prohibited writing the Hadith?

Why Aysha fought Imam Ali?

Why Muawiya fought Imam Ali?

Who tried to assassinate the prophet in the Aqaba?

How abu bakr has taken fadak from Fatima?

How Umar at least (according to the Sunnis) threatened to burn the House of Fatima?

How Abu Bakr appointed Umar if the Muslim should be ruled by the shura ?

Why the prophet appointed only Ali in the event of al Ghadeer, when he said whoever i am his master, ali is his master?

why the Quran and the Hadeeth is always talking about the leadership of Ahlulbayt and not the Sahaba?

Is not the quran is full about talking about the Hypocrites Sahaba?

If Islam was not hijacked by the hypocrites, how Ahulbayt were massacred?

Look all these questions are related to the core of the aqeeda...

And yes..The Shiites are the leaders when it comes to calling for the Muslim unity..

LuisDantas · Sep 27, 2017

PopeADope said:
Did Muhammad (peace be upon him) claim that no prophets would come after him?
Is it in the Koran? If so, does that mean no one who comes after him will have the gift of prophecy?

Also, Why is it not okay to criticize the prophet? Surely he made mistakes... can't a person, even a Muslim, be critical and say marriage of a middle-aged man to a prepubescent girl is low and should be outlawed?

Even if a person accepts him as a prophet, can't they also say he made serious mistakes?

The last question is particularly difficult to answer.

Interestingly, the Shia specifically attribute significant privilege to Muhammad and his biological offspring, to the point of claiming that the very few people who have true religious authority in the last 1400 years or so and in the future (only a dozen, by some accounts) are all his descendants.

While it is not a subject that Muslims or Christians usually like to discuss, it seems to me that there is considerable variation on the expectations directed towards their prophets.

PopeADope said:
Anyway, the world BADLY needs a new prophet! Monotheism is extremely divided with good sincere seekers coming to many opposite and confusing conclusions.

That is hardly surprising, nor a novelty. I stand unconvinced that it is a bad thing either.

Reliance on a prophet creates such a division, as people's own discernments struggle to impose themselves over following the words of a revered figure. While it appeals to many people, it creates essentially unsolvable problems when the time comes to dare to challenge what is perceived as the prophet's wisdom.

Why is it that all the sign and wonder workers and prophets had to live in a time where there was no media or ability to scientifically verify that it actually happened?...

There are more hungry souls than ever...yet God refuses to raise up shepherds who will verify that the sacred text is true and that God does exist.

I think it's terrible that when the world is most in need of prophets and healers, God refuses to provide them...why?

It seems to me that, if there is a God, he is just not willing to provide such reliable, very useful prophets.

If such people existed as such, our history would be very different from what it is.

For good or worse, there is no substitute to actual personal discernment.

It is possible and often very constructive to learn from others, of course, but prophets are ultimately of very questionable relevance for that.

Also Tell me...how does a person know the Koran is true?

You may ask me. It is not. Were it true, I would be lying about being an atheist.

Muslim-UK · Sep 27, 2017

Shias believe Ali ra should have been the Prophet, and Allah swt made a mistake. They further hold the Imams to be infallible with divine like qualities, much like the Trinitarian Christians. For me this is all I need to know to conclude Shiaism is on misguidance, but they are amongst the first to help Muslims who are under occupation and tyranny.

The Prophet pbuh said, 'MY Ummah' would split into 73 sects.

The key here is we are all classed as 'His Ummah' so squabbling over what happened in the past is of no benefit and just helps Shaitaan.

May ALLAH swt correct us all and unite this Ummah.

Ellejay · Sep 27, 2017

PopeADope said:
Did Muhammad (peace be upon him) claim that no prophets would come after him?
Is it in the Koran? If so, does that mean no one who comes after him will have the gift of prophecy?

Also, Why is it not okay to criticize the prophet? Surely he made mistakes... can't a person, even a Muslim, be critical and say marriage of a middle-aged man to a prepubescent girl is low and should be outlawed?

Even if a person accepts him as a prophet, can't they also say he made serious mistakes?

Jmu

MohammadPali · Sep 27, 2017

Shia Islam said:
Brother,
We Shiite read a lot of the Sunni resources..

You Sunnis tend not to What the Shiites write..

All the points you mentioned are Centuries old debate topics..
Among the Shia/Sunni debates that I read wholly or partly..
1. Al Murajaat.
2. Peshawer nights.
3. Then I was guided.
4. Many of the books written by those who converted to Shia Islam.

brother..
Just read about these two topics:
1. As Saqifa conference (after the death of the prophet)..
2. The last moments of the prophet life...That is when Umar said the prophet is hallucinating!

Just ask yourself...how the So called Shura Islamic System..became a hereditary system under the Ummayds and the Abbasids?

Why the Caliphs prohibited writing the Hadith?

Why Aysha fought Imam Ali?

Why Muawiya fought Imam Ali?

Who tried to assassinate the prophet in the Aqaba?

How abu bakr has taken fadak from Fatima?

How Umar at least (according to the Sunnis) threatened to burn the House of Fatima?

How Abu Bakr appointed Umar if the Muslim should be ruled by the shura ?

Why the prophet appointed only Ali in the event of al Ghadeer, when he said whoever i am his master, ali is his master?

why the Quran and the Hadeeth is always talking about the leadership of Ahlulbayt and not the Sahaba?

Is not the quran is full about talking about the Hypocrites Sahaba?

If Islam was not hijacked by the hypocrites, how Ahulbayt were massacred?

Look all these questions are related to the core of the aqeeda...

And yes..The Shiites are the leaders when it comes to calling for the Muslim unity..

Brother, some of the best mufasareen, the head scholars of islam, where not even arab, sahih muslim, albani for example. Abu hanifa was born in kufa and was persian and is SUNNI.

The books you talk about don't refute the sunnis, they are additional, they are added, they are not accepted to us because they are innovative. And they only translate how they want things translated, and don't look at the real exegesis of the surah. Which is why we have the hadith.

The problem with shia islam is that it was an theology, eventually what they were doing became ideology. For example, when the shia used to hit themselves because of the loss of al-hussein may allah be pleased with him, in the beginning they were hitting themselves because of the betrayal Eventually that became ideology. No where in islamic history where muslims hit themselves. Blood is nijes, its dirty, this is not islam. This hitting on the back and the sword things all these things came way after islam was SEALED by the last prophet peace be upon him. He is the seal, he finished the umma and it is complete. NO prophet after him.

Anyway in regards to muawiyah and ali may allah be pleaed with them.There was infiltration of the khawarij on both sides, hence why ali fought them, and they wanted to kill both, and ended up killing ali. This is a long story and it goes back to uhud, you remember the hypocrites of uhud. The rasul pbuh, kept the hypocrites at bay because he had the angle gabriel with him to warn up. And he had the ability to understand a person intentions.

Al-hassan and al-hussein may allah be pleased with them both. One of them was predicted by the rasul to unit a group of muslims, and that prediction was completely accurate, and it happened. Al-hussein disagreed with al-hassan. So in terms of infallibility my brother, they are not infallible. They are men of ahul bayt and men that are the princes of heaven.

At the battle of jamal with aisha may allah be pleased with her. It wasn't even supposed to be a battle, she along with 2 other companions of the rasul wanted justice for the death of uthman r.a. Ali was trying to consolidate the ummah and they had their differences. The battle started when khawarijj men infiltrated both camps in the middle of the night, while both were camped right next to each other. They even prayed together the day before. A fire consumed some tents, and one side thought they were attacking the other. It was a catastrophe and it was a mistake. ALI only went to meet aisha to discuss whats going on.

ahul al bayt was tragically killed when the tyrant yeazid was in power. Yes he was a tyrant. The rasul peace be upon projected the death of his family, and even named in medina where the "war of the children" would take place when yeazids syrian army would put citizens of medina to the sword.

Fatima may allah be pleased with her, if you remember the rasul pbuh when he was about to pass this world said something that made her cry, and she cried alot, and then he told her something else, and it made her laugh. Later on she revealed what made her cry, she said that the rasul told her that he wasn't going to last long, and she cried, but then he told her that she wasn't far off either, and it made her laugh. She didn't last long, in less than a year she died. You think she cared about a tree or a piece of land ? She never cared for any of that stuff. The household of the prophet peace be upon them where not even allowed to own anything. They were well taken care of.

Brother we differ on a few things, these are the core issues, between shia and sunni. All rafida are shia, but not all shia are rafida.

You have to be careful of who is your teachers and leaders are. I don't have anything against the shia, I used too, but I realized its not their fault they are the way they are.Ill explain why, For example, ayatollah ruhollah khomeini, he can't speak a word of arabic. That is more than enough to explain the reason why I will never trust shia theology or ideology because they are half learned. HALF aqueeda, HALF gossip. This ideology came way after ALI, and al hassan and hussein may allah be pleased with them.

BROTHER, we are not christians, we don't give men infallibility, they have saints, they give attributes to men who die, and expect them to have super poewrs. This is not a joke, this is innovation. Steer away from these ideas brother. We all love the family of the rasul, but remember they are human.

Shia Islam · Sep 28, 2017

MohammadPali said:
Brother, some of the best mufasareen, the head scholars of islam, where not even arab, sahih muslim, albani for example. Abu hanifa was born in kufa and was persian and is SUNNI.

The books you talk about don't refute the sunnis, they are additional, they are added, they are not accepted to us because they are innovative. And they only translate how they want things translated, and don't look at the real exegesis of the surah. Which is why we have the hadith.

The problem with shia islam is that it was an theology, eventually what they were doing became ideology. For example, when the shia used to hit themselves because of the loss of al-hussein may allah be pleased with him, in the beginning they were hitting themselves because of the betrayal Eventually that became ideology. No where in islamic history where muslims hit themselves. Blood is nijes, its dirty, this is not islam. This hitting on the back and the sword things all these things came way after islam was SEALED by the last prophet peace be upon him. He is the seal, he finished the umma and it is complete. NO prophet after him.

Anyway in regards to muawiyah and ali may allah be pleaed with them.There was infiltration of the khawarij on both sides, hence why ali fought them, and they wanted to kill both, and ended up killing ali. This is a long story and it goes back to uhud, you remember the hypocrites of uhud. The rasul pbuh, kept the hypocrites at bay because he had the angle gabriel with him to warn up. And he had the ability to understand a person intentions.

Al-hassan and al-hussein may allah be pleased with them both. One of them was predicted by the rasul to unit a group of muslims, and that prediction was completely accurate, and it happened. Al-hussein disagreed with al-hassan. So in terms of infallibility my brother, they are not infallible. They are men of ahul bayt and men that are the princes of heaven.

At the battle of jamal with aisha may allah be pleased with her. It wasn't even supposed to be a battle, she along with 2 other companions of the rasul wanted justice for the death of uthman r.a. Ali was trying to consolidate the ummah and they had their differences. The battle started when khawarijj men infiltrated both camps in the middle of the night, while both were camped right next to each other. They even prayed together the day before. A fire consumed some tents, and one side thought they were attacking the other. It was a catastrophe and it was a mistake. ALI only went to meet aisha to discuss whats going on.

ahul al bayt was tragically killed when the tyrant yeazid was in power. Yes he was a tyrant. The rasul peace be upon projected the death of his family, and even named in medina where the "war of the children" would take place when yeazids syrian army would put citizens of medina to the sword.

Fatima may allah be pleased with her, if you remember the rasul pbuh when he was about to pass this world said something that made her cry, and she cried alot, and then he told her something else, and it made her laugh. Later on she revealed what made her cry, she said that the rasul told her that he wasn't going to last long, and she cried, but then he told her that she wasn't far off either, and it made her laugh. She didn't last long, in less than a year she died. You think she cared about a tree or a piece of land ? She never cared for any of that stuff. The household of the prophet peace be upon them where not even allowed to own anything. They were well taken care of.

Brother we differ on a few things, these are the core issues, between shia and sunni. All rafida are shia, but not all shia are rafida.

You have to be careful of who is your teachers and leaders are. I don't have anything against the shia, I used too, but I realized its not their fault they are the way they are.Ill explain why, For example, ayatollah ruhollah khomeini, he can't speak a word of arabic. That is more than enough to explain the reason why I will never trust shia theology or ideology because they are half learned. HALF aqueeda, HALF gossip. This ideology came way after ALI, and al hassan and hussein may allah be pleased with them.

BROTHER, we are not christians, we don't give men infallibility, they have saints, they give attributes to men who die, and expect them to have super poewrs. This is not a joke, this is innovation. Steer away from these ideas brother. We all love the family of the rasul, but remember they are human.

Dear brother,

I'm am almost sure that you will never change your beliefs.
You will most probably die as a Sunni.
You don't need to defend your Sunnism for the Shiites or for anybody.
You will only need to defend your Sunnism after death.

On the other hand, Shiites generally don't change their religion.
I don't want to mention anything that you will feel motivated to debate, as this may be my last reply to you when it comes to the Shia\Sunni debate topic.
However, the Shiites lived as small minority under the most brutal Sunni tyrannies..
They did not change their ideology..
And Also, the Shiites have heard it all.

So i just don't recommend that you debate a Shiite!
neither you nor the Shiite, will change his opinion.

You remain, our brother in Islam..
Let us unite on what we both agree upon..

And Good Luck

Muslim-UK · Sep 28, 2017

Shia Islam said:
Dear brother,

I'm am almost sure that you will never change your beliefs.
You will most probably die as a Sunni.

So i just don't recommend that you debate a Shiite!
neither you nor the Shiite, will change his opinion.

You remain, our brother in Islam..
Let us unite on what we both agree upon..

^^^ This ^^^

Shia Islam said:
And Good Luck

No such thing in Islam

Peace be upon you.

Augustus · Sep 28, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
What happens when you Seal a letter? No more additions right.

Or you attach a seal to attest to its authenticity, which does find potential parallels in the Quran. Seal of the prophets could, at least in theory, mean confirmer of the message of the previous prophets.

Quran 3:48 Likewise confirming the truth of the Torah that is before me, and to make lawful to you certain things that before were forbidden unto you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so fear you God, and obey you me.

Quran 61:6 And when Jesus son of Mary said, 'Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger of God to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.' Then, when he brought them the clear signs, they said, 'This is a manifest sorcery.'

The meaning of the term seal is ambiguous in context, and is only later 'fixed' by the broader Islamic tradition.

FWIW, the alternative interpretation would also better reflect Biblical tradition:

"We find the noun seal or the verb to seal juxtaposed to the office of prophecy in Jewish, Christian, and Manichean texts. In all of these texts, the seal metaphor is invoked to signify the confirmation or fulfillment of prophecy; conversely, in none of these texts is the metaphor used to signify the end of prophecy." (Powers -Muhammad is not the father of any of your men)

"As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision: Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place." Daniel 9:23-4

"If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord." 1 Corr 9:2

Raj V · Sep 28, 2017

PopeADope said:
Anyway, the world BADLY needs a new prophet! Monotheism is extremely divided with good sincere seekers coming to many opposite and confusing conclusions.

Why is it that all the sign and wonder workers and prophets had to live in a time where there was no media or ability to scientifically verify that it actually happened?...

There are more hungry souls than ever...yet God refuses to raise up shepherds who will verify that the sacred text is true and that God does exist.

I think it's terrible that when the world is most in need of prophets and healers, God refuses to provide them...why?

Also Tell me...how does a person know the Koran is true?

We do not need people to rise up. We have the words of Jesus and also other great people accessible to us at this point in time like no other in the past. We have only us to blame if we cannot understand. Looking for signs and wonders is wrong and denotes a lack of faith. One should base things on Love, compassion, forgiveness, Truth, Righteousness, Justice, Wisdom, humility, courage, contentment, patience and the like.

Muslim-UK · Sep 28, 2017

Augustus said:
Or you attach a seal to attest to its authenticity, which does find potential parallels in the Quran. Seal of the prophets could, at least in theory, mean confirmer of the message of the previous prophets.

Quran 3:48 Likewise confirming the truth of the Torah that is before me, and to make lawful to you certain things that before were forbidden unto you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so fear you God, and obey you me.

Quran 61:6 And when Jesus son of Mary said, 'Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger of God to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.' Then, when he brought them the clear signs, they said, 'This is a manifest sorcery.'

The meaning of the term seal is ambiguous in context, and is only later 'fixed' by the broader Islamic tradition.

FWIW, the alternative interpretation would also better reflect Biblical tradition:

"We find the noun seal or the verb to seal juxtaposed to the office of prophecy in Jewish, Christian, and Manichean texts. In all of these texts, the seal metaphor is invoked to signify the confirmation or fulfillment of prophecy; conversely, in none of these texts is the metaphor used to signify the end of prophecy." (Powers -Muhammad is not the father of any of your men)

"As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision: Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place." Daniel 9:23-4

"If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord." 1 Corr 9:2

Stepping into the realms of theology huh. No problem, let's for the sake of argument accept your understanding, 'seal of approval', not final Prophet/Messenger.

Now the doors are open for people to step forward and claim they too are Prophets, as many have done. What we must do now is, test their claims. Did you have someone in mind so we can evaluate the evidence?

Augustus · Sep 28, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Stepping into the realms of theology huh.

Philology and the relationship of texts in a historical context actually. Discussing texts as historical documents is different from making theological arguments regarding them.

Muslim-UK said:
No problem, let's for the sake of argument accept your understanding, 'seal of approval', not final Prophet/Messenger. Now the doors are open for people to step forward and claim they too are Prophets, as many have done. What we must do now is, test their claims. Did you have someone in mind so we can evaluate the evidence?

Now that would be a theological argument. Who is or is not a prophet is in the eye of the beholder. People can believe what they want in that regard.

Shia Islam · Sep 28, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
^^^ This ^^^

No such thing in Islam

Peace be upon you.

Thanks brother,
Many times we forget to use the great greetings and expressions of Islam..

May Allah remove the Fitna from the Muslim world..and from the whole world too!

Wa-s Salamu Alaikum Wa RahmatuLLahi Wa Barakatoh

Muslim-UK · Sep 28, 2017

Augustus said:
Philology and the relationship of texts in a historical context actually. Discussing texts as historical documents is different from making theological arguments regarding them.

Ok in that case, with the previous verse in mind:

Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but is God’s Apostle and the Seal of all Prophets. And God has indeed full knowledge of everything. Qur'an 33:40

Have a look at the following Hadiths on Muhammad pbuh being the last of the Prophets:

"In My Ummah (Islamic Nation), there shall be born Thirty Grand Liars (Dajjals), each of whom will claim to be a prophet, But I am the Last Prophet; there is No Prophet after Me. (Abu Dawood Vol 2 p. 228; Tirmidhi Vol 2 p.45)"[1]

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, 'The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number.' The people asked, 'O Allah's Apostle! What do you order us (to do)?' He said, 'Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 661)"

"Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, 'Do you want to leave me with the children and women?' The Prophet said, 'Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 59, Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (peace be upon him) (Al-Maghaazi), Volume 5, Number 700)"

"Narrated Ubaida: Ali said (to the people of 'Iraq), "Judge as you used to judge, for I hate differences (and I do my best ) till the people unite as one group, or I die as my companions have died." And narrated Sad that the Prophet said to 'Ali, 'Will you not be pleased from this that you are to me like Aaron was to Moses?' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 57, Companions of the Prophet, Volume 5, Number 56)"

"Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) left 'Ali b. Abi Talib behind him (as he proceeded) to the expedition of Tabuk, whereupon he ('Ali) said: Allah's Messenger, are you leaving me behind amongst women and children? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there would be no prophet after me. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, Book 31, The Book Pertaining to the Merits of the Companions (Allah Be Pleased With Them) of the Holy Prophet (May Peace Be Upon Him) (Kitab Al-Fada'il Al-Sahabah), Number 5914)"

"Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist (Dajjal) and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 37, Battles (Kitab Al-Malahim), Number 4310)"

In the above Sayings (Hadiths) of our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, we see several things:

1- The People of Israel used to be ruled and guided by Prophets from Allah Almighty, and Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Prophet and Messenger. No Messenger of Allah will come after him. Only Caliphs (Disciples) will come after him, and the Muslims must follow them.

2- He used the word "prophet" for himself and as an expression for Moses peace be upon him. Moses and Muhammad peace be upon them are both Prophets and Messengers from Allah Almighty. Moses peace be upon him did not make predictions before. He only brought the Torah (the Law) to the People of Israel. Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them on the other hand made predictions (prophecies) that were inspired by Allah Almighty. Yet, Moses and the other Messengers of Allah Almighty were referred to as "Prophets". That's because in Arabic as I mentioned above, the words "Messenger (Rasul)" and "Prophet (Nabi)" would and could mean the same thing.

3- Prophet Jesus came before Prophet Muhammad and will come after him peace be upon both of them. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him made it clear that no new Prophet or Messenger will come after him. Only Jesus peace be upon him will. He will come and destroy the Antichrist, the Dajjal.

We say Muhammad pbuh is the Final Prophet with good reason.

MohammadPali · Sep 28, 2017

Shia Islam said:
Dear brother,

I'm am almost sure that you will never change your beliefs.
You will most probably die as a Sunni.
You don't need to defend your Sunnism for the Shiites or for anybody.
You will only need to defend your Sunnism after death.

On the other hand, Shiites generally don't change their religion.
I don't want to mention anything that you will feel motivated to debate, as this may be my last reply to you when it comes to the Shia\Sunni debate topic.
However, the Shiites lived as small minority under the most brutal Sunni tyrannies..
They did not change their ideology..
And Also, the Shiites have heard it all.

So i just don't recommend that you debate a Shiite!
neither you nor the Shiite, will change his opinion.

You remain, our brother in Islam..
Let us unite on what we both agree upon..

And Good Luck

Let us unite on what we both agree upon, I totally agree, the shia and sunnis alhamdoallah need to grab on the rope of iman together, we are one ummah. This is the best thing. And inshallah people open their eyes and realize that we are the same.

Augustus · Sep 29, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
In the above Sayings (Hadiths) of our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, we see several things:

1- The People of Israel used to be ruled and guided by Prophets from Allah Almighty, and Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Prophet and Messenger. No Messenger of Allah will come after him. Only Caliphs (Disciples) will come after him, and the Muslims must follow them.

2- He used the word "prophet" for himself and as an expression for Moses peace be upon him. Moses and Muhammad peace be upon them are both Prophets and Messengers from Allah Almighty. Moses peace be upon him did not make predictions before. He only brought the Torah (the Law) to the People of Israel. Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them on the other hand made predictions (prophecies) that were inspired by Allah Almighty. Yet, Moses and the other Messengers of Allah Almighty were referred to as "Prophets". That's because in Arabic as I mentioned above, the words "Messenger (Rasul)" and "Prophet (Nabi)" would and could mean the same thing.

3- Prophet Jesus came before Prophet Muhammad and will come after him peace be upon both of them. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him made it clear that no new Prophet or Messenger will come after him. Only Jesus peace be upon him will. He will come and destroy the Antichrist, the Dajjal.

We say Muhammad pbuh is the Final Prophet with good reason.

Ultimately, what you are doing is the equivalent of using Paul's Epistles to confirm the Gospel. That's fine if you are a believer, but less persuasive for someone simply looking at the evidence as is.

Early mufassirun clearly didn't understand numerous passages of the Quran, Tabari for example often gives multiple incompatible interpretations of various verses. That the diversity of various opinions diminishes over time suggests that meaning was fixed over time.

Hadith and Sirah literature serves the purpose of explaining the Quran, often in ways that seem highly artificial to someone who is not beholden to the Islamic narrative (splitting the moon, Abu Lahab, the elephant, etc).

Islamic hermeneutics rely on fundamentally different axioms than the historical critical method. That's why I say I discuss history rather than theology. If 'God did it' is a legitimate answer then the historical method is wrong, but that is an unanswerable question so I just avoid it and start with the axiom that it is not.

Your approach relies on us giving special, preferential status to Islamic sources and not treating them the same as we would treat any other source from any other civilisation. We don't have to do that though, just like you don't give special status to Christian or Zoroastrian scripture.

Starting with the axioms of history leads to a different analysis than starting with the axioms of Islamic theology. Which one is best depends on your attitude to those axioms.

Was Muhammad the final prophet?

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