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Are people who claim to know God liars?

What do you think of people who claim knowledge of God

  • They are liars

    Votes: 5 7.8%

  • They are self deluded

    Votes: 17 26.6%

  • Of course we have knowledge of God

    Votes: 23 35.9%

  • Other, I suppose in case someone feels there's a better position to take.

    Votes: 19 29.7%
  • Total voters
    64
Robert Landbeck

Robert Landbeck

Member
Nakosis said:
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.
Click to expand...

"My position is man knows nothing about God." I agree completely and would even suggest that, in spite of religious claims to the contrary, this is the default position of human nature itself. But I must add a big BUT because something very recent appears to be taking place that could effect both atheist and religious alike.

"The first wholly new interpretation for two thousand years of the moral teachings of Christ has been published. Radically different from anything else we know of from theology or history, this new teaching is predicated upon the 'promise' of a precise, predefined, predictable and repeatable experience of transcendent omnipotence and called 'the first Resurrection' in the sense that the Resurrection of Jesus was intended to demonstrate Gods' willingness to reveal Himself and intervene directly into the natural world for those obedient to His Command, paving the way for access, by faith, to the power of divine Will and ultimate proof!"

If this material proves to be authentic and I am testing this new reaching out just now for myself, it means that there must be 'someone' that has direct knowledge of God, necessarily to be able to write and describe a literal proof of God! Then the question become who?http://www.energon.org.uk
 
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Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
tonemonkey said:
To put it a different way, why does it bother you when people say they know God? If it's not possible, then all you really should feel is pity for them, but you seem to be offended somehow.
Click to expand...

What bothers me is when someone assumes they have the authority to tell other folks that they have the true knowledge of God and anyone who claims knowledge of God which disagrees with the truth they've claimed is a liar.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
BilliardsBall said:
If all theists and Bible readers, etc. have a "certainty they don't possess", why are we the overwhelmingly majority now and in all history?

Why do we have a "certainty we don't possess" if we have a Bible with 2,000 pages written by 40 authors to tell us about God?

Why do we have a "certainty" we don't possess if God is as self-evident to believers as our own existence is self-evident to people?
Click to expand...

Is God as self evident to Muslims? Are they lying when they say Jesus is not the Son of God?
 
sealchan

sealchan

Well-Known Member
God is...

He/She/That

...who/which responds to the precise nature of...

You

..with the grand eloquence of...

What Is

As such God is a reflection (imagination/perception) of the knower in dynamic and systemic interaction with the whole of the known.

For both atheists and believers there is a wide range of problem/question that one must ask in order to make significant decisions in one's life. Some recognize that they use faith in some unproven belief while others do not. All do.
 
sealchan

sealchan

Well-Known Member
In mathematics there are rational and irrational numbers, rational and irrational expressions, linear and non-linear equations. Is God rational?

What is the square root of -1?
 
Jack Reynolds

Jack Reynolds

Thinking
Nakosis said:
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.
Click to expand...
Nakosis said:
Did God tell you this or is this a doctrine of your religion?

If I honestly read the Bible, I find it vague enough to find an interpretation which could support what "God" has revealed to me. Finding a way to interpret scripture to fit my experience was not much of a hindrance. Yet based on all of this, I still found it difficult to get Christians to agree much on anything about God. All of them sincere. All of them willing to show how the Bible supported their experience of God yet there is little unity among Christians when it comes to God.

In fact I used to pray for understanding of a troubling passage that Christian would argue over. The answer would be given to me which made to me all the sense in the world. Which also made most them other Christians wrong. So this accept this as truth revealed to me by God even though other Christians claimed the truth revealed to them didn't agree?

Endless arguments among Christians about scripture supporting their knowledge about God. All sincere, all true believers.
Click to expand...


This is the best question for debate. My premise is that every human belief that is not based on actual fact or personal experience is a result of a person being exposed to an idea or concept by the media, a religion, family, friends etc. When the brain is subjected to a confusing but potentially possible point of view, it often sees the glass as half full rather than giving the question an arbitrary no answer.

As far as knowing God all one has to do is gaze at the night sky and imagine the energy required for that continuing creation. You are witnessing a masterwork still in
progress.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Jack Reynolds said:
As far as knowing God all one has to do is gaze at the night sky and imagine the energy required for that continuing creation. You are witnessing a masterwork still in
progress.
Click to expand...

While I'll agree with this last part, for my own reasons. I don't feel this gives me any authority to make claims about God.

If I were to go by my own experience, perspective, I could tell you what God looks like/sounds like and the intense feeling of peace this experiences have. I've just stop calling it "God" because I really don't know what it is.

Also, why should anybody believe me? My conviction, my certainty, my passion?

I was told by someone that this experience was God. Ok but it certainly didn't conform to any religious concept of God.

There are a lot of well meaning folks all ready to tell me the truth about God. If I am left to trust in my own experience, then all of the religions are wrong.

That's a pretty big claim which I can't prove anymore than the guy claiming all homosexuals are going to burn in hell.
 
Jack Reynolds

Jack Reynolds

Thinking
Nakosis said:
While I'll agree with this last part, for my own reasons. I don't feel this gives me any authority to make claims about God.

If I were to go by my own experience, perspective, I could tell you what God looks like/sounds like and the intense feeling of peace this experiences have. I've just stop calling it "God" because I really don't know what it is.

Also, why should anybody believe me? My conviction, my certainty, my passion?

I was told by someone that this experience was God. Ok but it certainly didn't conform to any religious concept of God.

There are a lot of well meaning folks all ready to tell me the truth about God. If I am left to trust in my own experience, then all of the religions are wrong.

That's a pretty big claim which I can't prove anymore than the guy claiming all homosexuals are going to burn in hell.
Click to expand...
The first part says we are all products of our environment. We have no choice. Some of us try but the overpowering effect of religious guilt is often too much to bear.
All leaders in history knew that the human mind was susceptible to the power of suggestion. "Keep 'em stupid, make 'em soldiers".
The final comment suggests that God is energy.
 
tonemonkey

tonemonkey

Member
Nakosis said:
What bothers me is when someone assumes they have the authority to tell other folks that they have the true knowledge of God and anyone who claims knowledge of God which disagrees with the truth they've claimed is a liar.
Click to expand...
Well, I've been commissioned to share the Gospel of Christ with others by Jesus Himself. I wouldn't do that in an arrogant, I know better than you sort of way.

I wouldn't tell somebody who believes differently that they are a liar, because again that presumes that they know what they believe isn't true but are telling it as if it is. If you are sharing what you authentically believe you can't be lying about it - you might believing a falsehood, but you're not lying about it.
 
tonemonkey

tonemonkey

Member
Nakosis said:
Is God as self evident to Muslims? Are they lying when they say Jesus is not the Son of God?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say that they are lying, but they are incorrect.

Where they might be in conflict is if they claim that Jesus was a good moral teacher and a prophet, and also that he wasn't the Son of God. Jesus both claimed to be the Son of God and claimed to be God. If he wasn't/isn't either of the things he claimed to be, then he can't be a prophet or a moral teacher.
 
Jeremy Payne

Jeremy Payne

New Member
Nakosis said:
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.
Click to expand...
 
Jeremy Payne

Jeremy Payne

New Member
Your negative judgment of the Christian gospel is circular. Your argument is that the gospel writers needn't have known any more about God than anyone else. This assumes that they didn't encounter God in Jesus.
Now of course I can't prove that they did. But the evidence is strong and I have made a cost/benefit-based decision to let faith do the rest.
 
tonemonkey

tonemonkey

Member
Jeremy Payne said:
Your negative judgment of the Christian gospel is circular. Your argument is that the gospel writers needn't have known any more about God than anyone else. This assumes that they didn't encounter God in Jesus.
Now of course I can't prove that they did. But the evidence is strong and I have made a cost/benefit-based decision to let faith do the rest.
Click to expand...
I'd have to agree. There are many stories in the OT of people having contact from God in dreams and spoken voice. Moses not only encountered Him in the burning bush but also on the top of Mount Sinai.

If I'm wrong, as a Christian, I haven't lost out on anything in life worth having. If I'm right, then I get to experience an eternity in paradise.

For those who don't believe in the salvation spoken of in the Bible - what if you're wrong?
 
T

Tina57

Member
Nakosis said:
A wise man once said to be an expert at anything one has to get with an expert - or similar. Therefore the only perfect human and expert on humans was Jesus about God. We are told (from Gods Word) Jesus is the Chief Agent of Life and perfecter of OUR faith. Hebrews 12:2
It would stand to reason if Jesus faith led him to a life of self sacrifice, to die an ignominious, innocent death (for mostly ungrateful and mostly ignorant blissfully unaware of his reason for dying) humans AND he said many other disciples were to be made AFTER his going back to heaven - wouldn't those same disciples experience Gods hand, spirit and guidance along with protection in their lives the same as Jesus? There are thousands if not millions that daily experience them because they have drawn close to God. Jas 4:8
They prove to themselves God is not a liar in their lives neither is he dead. Faith without works is dead. The Bible is full of accounts of persons who believed in God and could testify to the truthfulness of his existence and will. Paul says at Titus 1:2 "...based on a hope of everlasting life that God who cannot lie, promised long ago - he made his word known through the preaching entrusted to me (Paul)..."
The poser says People who claim to know God are liars: Romans 3:2 "But let God be found true, though every man be found to be a liar...."
Imperfect as people are those who are trying to live a life as Jesus did can verify God plays a part in their doing His will. Many are the accounts in the Bibles pages of those who faced odds, Abraham, Gideon, Moses, Jeremiah, Paul, early Christians even death doing Gods will not their own even Jesus said so of himself. John 4:34 "My food is to do the will of the one who sent me and finish his work." The faith of many in the Bible is testimony that it was only through Gods power they were saved. They had faith in the name of Jesus whose name means Jehovah is Salvation. jw.org
Click to expand...
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Nakosis said:
What bothers me is when someone assumes they have the authority to tell other folks that they have the true knowledge of God and anyone who claims knowledge of God which disagrees with the truth they've claimed is a liar.
Click to expand...
Isn't that what the OP does?
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Tina57 said:
It would stand to reason if Jesus faith led him to a life of self sacrifice, to die an ignominious, innocent death (for mostly ungrateful and mostly ignorant blissfully unaware of his reason for dying) humans AND he said many other disciples were to be made AFTER his going back to heaven - wouldn't those same disciples experience Gods hand, spirit and guidance along with protection in their lives the same as Jesus? There are thousands if not millions that daily experience them because they have drawn close to God. Jas 4:8
They prove to themselves God is not a liar in their lives neither is he dead. Faith without works is dead. The Bible is full of accounts of persons who believed in God and could testify to the truthfulness of his existence and will. Paul says at Titus 1:2 "...based on a hope of everlasting life that God who cannot lie, promised long ago - he made his word known through the preaching entrusted to me (Paul)..."
The poser says People who claim to know God are liars: Romans 3:2 "But let God be found true, though every man be found to be a liar...."
Imperfect as people are those who are trying to live a life as Jesus did can verify God plays a part in their doing His will. Many are the accounts in the Bibles pages of those who faced odds, Abraham, Gideon, Moses, Jeremiah, Paul, early Christians even death doing Gods will not their own even Jesus said so of himself. John 4:34 "My food is to do the will of the one who sent me and finish his work." The faith of many in the Bible is testimony that it was only through Gods power they were saved. They had faith in the name of Jesus whose name means Jehovah is Salvation. jw.org
Click to expand...

What if I told you I've found that it was unnecessary to be a Christian or believe in Jesus, specifically, to have these same kind of experiences?

What if belief didn't didn't matter? You could experience the same benefits regardless of which God you believed in, which religious ideology you accepted as true.

The only thing necessary was faith, devotion, conviction. In which God, what religion, doesn't really matter. Back in the 70's I hung with a whole community of Hare Krishna who were positive that Krishna had save them.

They relied on the Bhagavad Gita as you rely on the Bible. They were loving, caring, 100% certain of their enlightenment through Krishna.
 
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