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Was Jesus the Messaiah? Why or why not?
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
Christ being anointed meant that there could be no different Christ at that point. It doubled down on Christ as the Messiah because then it couldn't later be anyone different.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
First there are two groups of people who claim to be Israel.
So who is the true Israel?
As there are two groups of Christians?
So who are the true and who are the false?
In the book of Matthew we'll find Christ Jesus cursing of the fig tree.
"And when He saw a fig tree in the way, He came to it, and found nothing there, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on you henceforth for ever, And presently the fig tree withered away"
Matthew 21:19-20
In the book of John chapter 8, here you find Christ Jesus speaking to those Jews who claim to be the children of Abraham and the children of God.
Notice what Christ Jesus tells them in verse 39 "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham"
Therefore Christ Jesus saying, If you were, which you are not the children of Abraham's. You would do the works of Abraham.
Notice Christ Jesus saying to them in verse 44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do, He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him, When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it"
Note that even disciple Paul had written about there are two groups of Israel in the world.
Romans 9:6-8"Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel which are of Israel"
Verse 7-"Neither, because they are the Seed of Abraham, are they all children, but, in Isaac shall your seed be called"
Verse 8-"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, These are not the children of God, But the children of the promise are counted for the seed"
The only true seed ( children ) of Abraham comes thru the seed line of Isaac.
Unto which Christ Jesus just showed these Jews who proclaimed to be the children of Abraham, that they are not the children of Abraham nor the children of God.
But the children of the Devil.
Note in Revelation 2:9, Christ Jesus speaking, saying, "I know your works, and tribulation, and poverty, but you are rich, and I know the Blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan"
So here again Christ Jesus showing there are two groups of Jews in the world.
Just like there are two groups of Christians in the world.
The one group of Christians which gives false teachings and doctrines of man's.
Adds to and deleting from the teachings of Christ Jesus.
The other group of Christians gives the true teachings of Christ Jesus nothing added to or deleted from.
Mark 13:6-"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many"
Notice Christ is abbreviation for Christian.
Christ = Christian.
What other group of people comes by the name Christ other than Christians.
So you have two groups of Jews both professing to be Israel.
And you have two groups of Christians both professing to be of Christ.
So the question is, How do you know who is who ?
So who is the true Israel?
As there are two groups of Christians?
So who are the true and who are the false?
In the book of Matthew we'll find Christ Jesus cursing of the fig tree.
"And when He saw a fig tree in the way, He came to it, and found nothing there, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on you henceforth for ever, And presently the fig tree withered away"
Matthew 21:19-20
In the book of John chapter 8, here you find Christ Jesus speaking to those Jews who claim to be the children of Abraham and the children of God.
Notice what Christ Jesus tells them in verse 39 "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham"
Therefore Christ Jesus saying, If you were, which you are not the children of Abraham's. You would do the works of Abraham.
Notice Christ Jesus saying to them in verse 44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do, He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him, When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it"
Note that even disciple Paul had written about there are two groups of Israel in the world.
Romans 9:6-8"Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel which are of Israel"
Verse 7-"Neither, because they are the Seed of Abraham, are they all children, but, in Isaac shall your seed be called"
Verse 8-"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, These are not the children of God, But the children of the promise are counted for the seed"
The only true seed ( children ) of Abraham comes thru the seed line of Isaac.
Unto which Christ Jesus just showed these Jews who proclaimed to be the children of Abraham, that they are not the children of Abraham nor the children of God.
But the children of the Devil.
Note in Revelation 2:9, Christ Jesus speaking, saying, "I know your works, and tribulation, and poverty, but you are rich, and I know the Blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan"
So here again Christ Jesus showing there are two groups of Jews in the world.
Just like there are two groups of Christians in the world.
The one group of Christians which gives false teachings and doctrines of man's.
Adds to and deleting from the teachings of Christ Jesus.
The other group of Christians gives the true teachings of Christ Jesus nothing added to or deleted from.
Mark 13:6-"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many"
Notice Christ is abbreviation for Christian.
Christ = Christian.
What other group of people comes by the name Christ other than Christians.
So you have two groups of Jews both professing to be Israel.
And you have two groups of Christians both professing to be of Christ.
So the question is, How do you know who is who ?
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Which side is actually making things better?
The Jews are Am Israel. This is really simple.
The premise behind your conclusion is flawed to begin with.
You could just as well ask why the system established under Moses, the prophet chosen by God for the purpose of seeing Israel become a nation set apart to God, ultimately resulted in an utterly ungodly nation that unleashed great persecution upon the true followers of God and His prophets for ages. It got so bad that God had to destroy the nation and send them into captivity in Babylon just to cure them of idolatry. Then, even still, we see the religious leadership majority seeking to kill Jesus and his followers, as thier fathers had killed the true prophets before them. Which is part of why Jesus calls them sons of satan. So we still see that thier godly heritage was no guarantee of them following in the footsteps of thier founder.
The answer is quite simple: not everyone who says they follow God actually does. It has nothing to do with flaws in what Jesus did, nor does it even reflect the truth of what Jesus said, if there are people who claim to be followers of Christ but don't actually know and follow God. Jesus warned us in the Gospels that there would be wolves in sheep's clothing who would be cast into outer darkness in the end because they never actually followed or obeyed Him.
Human assumptions are what got the religious leaders into trouble with God to begin with.
What matters is not what you assume, but what the Bible says the Messiah will do. So your second premise is flawed for that reason. You must go back to what the Scripture says about the Messiah.
Jesus did not defy God's law, which would be the definiton of sin.
Man's law is of no consequence. The pharisees may have been upset that Jesus did not abide by thier man-made decrees, but they are not God and Jesus did no wrong by ignoring them on those points.
There are many passages in the OT which show us that not only can the Messiah not be a mere man, but He will have to be God Himself.
A few examples of this:
Jeremiah 23:5-6
Isaiah 9:6
Micah 5:2
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Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
If I may ask, you made mention of Israel, which is why Jesus called them sons of Satan.
Can you explain as to which Israel ( Jews ) Jesus was referring to, When Jesus called them the children of the Devil ?
Note that there those who claim to be Israel but are not, but of the synagogue of Satan. Rev 2:9. Romans 9:6-8.
So they are not all Israel who claim to be Israel.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
As Jesus wasn't exactly thrilled with gentiles, why do the majority of Christians, completely unrelated genetically or otherwise to Jesus' main audience, claim to be his true followers?
One example: John 8:44
Jesus is talking to particular Jews who think they are God's people, but actually aren't because they don't do what He says.
You aren't disagreeing with what I said.
Tumah
Veteran Member
According to the NT, he literally did that with the argument that since the Sabbath was made for man, man is controls the Sabbath Laws.
Deut. 17:11-12 disagrees with you.
There is no where in these two verses that indicates this.
There is no where in this verse that indicates this.
I have no idea how this verse is related to the topic.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
The question is ?
Who are these Jews who are pretending to be Jews of Israel?
Where and by who did they come from, These are not the children of Abraham.
Notice that in John 8:39 That these Jews answered Jesus and said unto him, Abraham is our father, Jesus said unto them, If you were Abraham's children"
Notice Jesus said ( If you were ) Meaning you are not Abraham's children.
So who's children are they?
Jesus plainly tells them Who's children they are in John 8:44-"You are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father you will do.
Revelation 2:9.
And who is the off spring of the devil.
Notice that in 1 John 3:12--"Not as Cain who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother"
Note that the devil has many names that he goes by.
The wicked one is just one of the many names Satan will go by. The one name that was given him was Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12.
Old Serpent, devil, the lawless one, son of perdition, death, Antichrist, the great dragon, You will find these names throughout the old and new testaments.
Revelation 12:9.
If you were to follow the seed line of Cain in the old testament, you would find those Jews that Jesus told them their father is the devil, they come from the seed line of Cain. And Cain's father being Satan.
1 John 3:12.
Romans 2:28-29
Your premise is flawed. "Jew" is not even today, and never was in history, only a racial distinction. It was those who kept the law and mosaic covenant of God. That is why conversion to Judaism is possible. A Biblical example of this is Rahab or Ruth.
Your theory about Cain also doesnt make sense considering we are all descendants of Noah.
Cain's line ends at Lamech. He had no more descendants. Your antisemitism is still alive though.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
You covered it quite nicely.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Your premise is absolutely positively wrong, since you have no idea as to who was on the ark of Noah's, besides his family.
Your exactly right it wouldn't make no sense to you, about who Cain's descendants are.
You just proved prophecy of scripture is still being fulfilled.
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned"
Therefore how can you see what given by the spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto you.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
That's all because people have no knowledge or understanding of the old testament, to trace down who Cain's descendants are.
Firstly, you must recognize that regardless of who was in the ark, your premise is still wrong because what makes someone a "Jew" has never been about race. So arguing over who was in the ark doesnt make your original assertion any less wrong.
Second, Genesis 7:13. Only Noah and his family are said to enter the ark.
Hebrews 11:7 - only his family is said to be saved.
There is no Biblical reason to believe anyone else was in there.