Are people who claim to know God liars?

arthra · Sep 21, 2017

Nakosis said:
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.
My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?
People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?
I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?
You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.
Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

As a Baha'i I would say the Essence of God is unknowable.

What "knowledge" we have of God we receive from His Messengers.
So in my belief in answer to your question "Whence does this knowledge come from?" It comes from the Messengers and Prophets of God Who have appeared down through our history and sacrificed Themselves for the well being of humankind.

Religion is founded on revelations received by the Prophets and in some form are later shared with us so we have revealed scriptures and Writings that are availabe for anyone to explore.

LukeS · Sep 21, 2017

I think we might have hypothetical knowledge of God - of the type - "if He exists, then this is His creation" etc.

Likewise with philosophy and science "if the external world exists, then experience is a representational model of it".

Jumi · Sep 21, 2017

Nakosis said:
I've gotten to the point that I can create any experience of God. God can be whatever I create God to be and I can have the experiences to support that creation.

I'd say there are limits to this. Honest belief and following religion will provide experiences to back up any religion to a point. It's then a balancing act to see if reality matches the experiences and teachings. If it doesn't, people leave or become strict and angry.

Beyond those kind of experiences, there are the experiences of the mystic. It's fair to say though, that then the idea of God becomes less meaningful and on that point comparisons to the straight-up atheists can sometimes be unavoidable while at the same time finding meaning in the deeper writings within religions.

12jtartar · Sep 21, 2017

Nakosis said:
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

Nakosis,
There are many people who study God's word that KNOW God!!! What do you think God had His word written down for, it is for all those who want to Know God to read and study. Evidently you have not really searched for God, because if you had you would have found Him, as His word says, Proverbs 2:1-8, Acts 17:24-28, James 1:5-7.
There are, in fact, two ways that a God fearing person learns about The Almighty God, Natural Religion, which we learn from the things He Created, and Revealed Religion, the things He has given us, in His written word.
One of the most important things that true believers have learned about God is His Name, Jehovah. This is God’s Personal Name, or Proper Name. This is the most important Name is existence, and everyone who calls on this name will be saved, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32.
If anyone wants to have a chance to live in God’s paradise earth, he must learn all he can about The NAME!!!

Nakosis said:
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

Profound Realization · Sep 21, 2017

Mister Silver said:
In a very real sense, it can be denied, despite it having derived from within the individual. There is a common misconception that just because it is a "personal" belief that "many" seem to share, which is quite illogical in itself and fails as a proper explanation for belief, that the personal belief is somehow magically untouched by logic. Logic dictates that if someone cannot properly provide the evidence, then that something is not a part of reality. Certainly, that something may be a part of one's mind, a concept of pure imagination, but in no way is it a construct of reality that has rules and evidence to properly classify something as realistic and existing in our world.

Logic isn't a dictator, it doesn't dictate anything or spout off rules and regulations as far as I'm aware or outside of your faith that it does. You're speaking for "Logic" just as others speak for "God(s)." You've given "Logic" a characteristic or attribute just as others give for "God(s." You have given it authority and power as a dictator that makes rules.

If I told someone that their spouse were being unfaithful with someone else, and it were happening, yet I couldn't provide evidence... that would not be reality? How ironic, the power you give to belief/faith. In your own words of logic, if someone believes something isn't happening due to no evidence, then it isn't happening.

How does reality exclude belief, concepts, imagination, ones mind? All you're essentially saying is that something is reality internally but not reality externally. That it's reality and existing in an internal world but not existing in an external world.

Profound Realization · Sep 21, 2017

Nakosis said:
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

Religion doesn't claim anything. Human beings claim due to part of their nature. So, you really have criticisms with the nature of human beings, not religion.

People that also say "God" is a deity or supernatural, or however the human being defines it I'd also like to know from whence this knowledge about "God" comes from, so now your criticism is also towards the nature of self-proclaimed "atheists."

The only way a human being can know or have knowledge of anything is where knowing and knowledge reside... within them, that's also part of their nature. It's also where experience, feeling, belief, and imagination exist. It's also too, where revelation would occur.

PureX · Sep 21, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Yes and no. There's quite a bit packed into the phrase "I experienced God":

1. I experienced something.
2. That something is rooted in something real outside myself (i.e. it wasn't a hallucination or a delusion).
3. The something is indicative of God.
4. The something is not indicative of anything but God.

The experiencer is the best judge of step 1, but given a particular "something", anyone can judge the other steps... and possibly better than the experiencer.

No, they really can't. Because they would be doing so according to their own idea of a god-experience would be "rooted in", "indicative of", and "apart from". Since no one has any more knowledge of what a god-experience would be than anyone else does, no one is more qualified to judge the purported experience than the person that experienced it.

Quintessence · Sep 21, 2017

Nakosis said:
I know they occur. We can each have our own God(s) or no God. What I don't get is the assumption that I have because of my personal experiences, any authority to you God's will, or God's rules or that God is like this or that. Or that your God is false and my God, my knowledge of God is the real truth ( Even though I couldn't validate that for crap) other than relying on my personal experience.

Ah, I see. That clarifies the direction you were going with this, thanks!

It seems plausible that this particular element boils down to how much one wants to control other people - how much of an authoritarian "I'm right and you're wrong" streak someone has. Not being particularly inclined in that fashion, I don't get it either.

But I also think there might be another element in play that's a bit tougher to write off and demonize like authoritarian leanings are. That element is that people want to be understood and listened to. People want and enjoy a certain basic level of respect and dignity. Openly listening to their tales and accepting someone's word is a way of conveying respect and understanding.

9-10ths_Penguin · Sep 21, 2017

PureX said:
No, they really can't. Because they would be doing so according to their own idea of a god-experience would be "rooted in", "indicative of", and "apart from". Since no one has any more knowledge of what a god-experience would be than anyone else does, no one is more qualified to judge the purported experience than the person that experienced it.

If nobody is qualified to say for sure that something was a "god-experience", then anyone saying that they had one is making an unjustified leap.

If anyone - including the experiencer - is able to justifiably say that a person experienced God, then there are parts of that logical chain that potentially anyone could consider and find to to be unsubstantiated.

At the very least, a person's psychiatrist could be in a better position than the experiencer to say whether mental illness has been ruled out as a possible explanation.

9-10ths_Penguin · Sep 21, 2017

Enoch07 said:
I have never seen God. I have never heard His voice. But I have felt His presence and love.

How do you know?

What does "God's presence" feel like?

What does "God's love" feel like?

Nakosis · Sep 21, 2017

Quintessence said:
Ah, I see. That clarifies the direction you were going with this, thanks!

It seems plausible that this particular element boils down to how much one wants to control other people - how much of an authoritarian "I'm right and you're wrong" streak someone has. Not being particularly inclined in that fashion, I don't get it either.

But I also think there might be another element in play that's a bit tougher to write off and demonize like authoritarian leanings are. That element is that people want to be understood and listened to. People want and enjoy a certain basic level of respect and dignity. Openly listening to their tales and accepting someone's word is a way of conveying respect and understanding.

Calling folks liars, I get it, not so respectful. But being kind of bluntly honest, if someone claims to have the authority to tell me about the "true" God or the truth about God, maybe I'm not going to be calling them a liar but "honestly" I'm not going to be believing they have any special authority from "God" to do so.

If they want to tell me about their personal experiences, no problem. I've had some "interesting" experiences of my own.

Enoch07 · Sep 21, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
How do you know?

What does "God's presence" feel like?

What does "God's love" feel like?

Words can't really explain.

You can go ahead and write it off as mumbo jumbo. I am not here to convince people. Just explaining that people with faith know exactly what I mean, and people without faith will not know unless they discover faith themselves.

It is what it is.

Nakosis · Sep 21, 2017

arthra said:
As a Baha'i I would say the Essence of God is unknowable.

What "knowledge" we have of God we receive from His Messengers.
So in my belief in answer to your question "Whence does this knowledge come from?" It comes from the Messengers and Prophets of God Who have appeared down through our history and sacrificed Themselves for the well being of humankind.

Religion is founded on revelations received by the Prophets and in some form are later shared with us so we have revealed scriptures and Writings that are availabe for anyone to explore.

False prophets exist don't they?
Even folks who really feel they've been given God's authority to speak for God, they could be wrong about possessing such authority correct?

Who do you accept as having this authority and why? Folks who managed to get enough of a following to have other folks claim they were prophets?

I see, have found a lot of difference between what other folks have claimed about a person and the reality of that person. I've even followed a person who claimed to be a Messiah. I could see how folks who believing, wanting to believe, wrote in a manner to reinforce that belief in messiah hood.

Their intent is not to mislead, it's to reinforce belief. Still chance events become miracles that prove divine authority. Unless you have personal knowledge of the Prophet, you don't really have knowledge of the prophet. You're relying on what other folks claim. The truth is you have no good reason to trust the reliability of folks you have no knowledge of.

I've seen well intended folks making claims they really had no authority to make and some not so well intended folks making a claim with such charisma folks believed the claim without question.

You think you know, can tell the quality of a person, but you really can't. At best they are no better, no worse than you. At worst they'll convince you that they are your best friend and happily manipulate you into self-destructive behavior. I'm not saying not to trust anybody, just be honest with yourself about what you really know about a person. Prophet or not.

allfoak · Sep 21, 2017

Mister Silver said:
In a very real sense, it can be denied, despite it having derived from within the individual. There is a common misconception that just because it is a "personal" belief that "many" seem to share, which is quite illogical in itself and fails as a proper explanation for belief, that the personal belief is somehow magically untouched by logic. Logic dictates that if someone cannot properly provide the evidence, then that something is not a part of reality. Certainly, that something may be a part of one's mind, a concept of pure imagination, but in no way is it a construct of reality that has rules and evidence to properly classify something as realistic and existing in our world.

You speak like most on this subject, without experience.

allfoak · Sep 21, 2017

Nakosis said:
From this I can have any God of my choosing. That's fine as long as you don't have any expectation of being able to tell me anything about God. Because my God within has nothing to do with your God within and vice versa.

I have no expectations.

Nakosis · Sep 21, 2017

Profound Realization said:
Religion doesn't claim anything. Human beings claim due to part of their nature. So, you really have criticisms with the nature of human beings, not religion.

People that also say "God" is a deity or supernatural, or however the human being defines it I'd also like to know from whence this knowledge about "God" comes from, so now your criticism is also towards the nature of self-proclaimed "atheists."

The only way a human being can know or have knowledge of anything is where knowing and knowledge reside... within them, that's also part of their nature. It's also where experience, feeling, belief, and imagination exist. It's also too, where revelation would occur.

As an engineer, I am required to be able to validate my claims to anyone at anytime. I can do that. I'm good documenting results of tests which prove my claims.

I guess I'm also good at "religious" experiences. I've found that it's not really the best idea to go about life relying on these personal religious... um maybe better defined as spiritual experiences.

You can, I know a lot of folks who swear by then. Their entire life reinforces their acceptance of them. They see signs from God they direct them through life and follow them without question.

I could do the same. It's my experience, I was there, I should rely on it right?

I also know the fallibility of being human. Why I need to document everything, be able to provide proof for my claims. Even as an engineer I make mistakes. I constantly have to question my memory, my knowledge. I've other folks relying on me for their safety.

Now what if I relied on some vision or my belief in being guided by God to ensure what I designed or created was going to be safe.

How safe would you feel?

Nakosis · Sep 21, 2017

allfoak said:
I have no expectations.

That's fine. My grip is really about those folks feeling they possess some authority to make claims about God to other people

Nakosis · Sep 21, 2017

12jtartar said:
Nakosis,
There are many people who study God's word that KNOW God!!! What do you think God had His word written down for, it is for all those who want to Know God to read and study. Evidently you have not really searched for God, because if you had you would have found Him, as His word says, Proverbs 2:1-8, Acts 17:24-28, James 1:5-7.
There are, in fact, two ways that a God fearing person learns about The Almighty God, Natural Religion, which we learn from the things He Created, and Revealed Religion, the things He has given us, in His written word.
One of the most important things that true believers have learned about God is His Name, Jehovah. This is God’s Personal Name, or Proper Name. This is the most important Name is existence, and everyone who calls on this name will be saved, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32.
If anyone wants to have a chance to live in God’s paradise earth, he must learn all he can about The NAME!!!

How did you first learn God's name? Did God come to you personally and tell you his name or did you first hear someone else make the claim that Jehovah was God's name?

PureX · Sep 21, 2017

9-10ths_Penguin said:
If nobody is qualified to say for sure that something was a "god-experience", then anyone saying that they had one is making an unjustified leap.

Only if you assume they have to "justify" telling the rest of us about what happened to them. And I see no reason why they should have to do that.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
If anyone - including the experiencer - is able to justifiably say that a person experienced God, then there are parts of that logical chain that potentially anyone could consider and find to to be unsubstantiated.

They can "justifiably" say whatever they want. Just as you can "justifiably" believe it or not believe it. I don't get this need for "justification". Who do you imagine anyone else has to justify their experience of reality, to? Is there a reality judge, somewhere, who's job it is to determine what's real and what's not? And what makes them an expert?

9-10ths_Penguin said:
At the very least, a person's psychiatrist could be in a better position than the experiencer to say whether mental illness has been ruled out as a possible explanation.

It's only an "illness" if it's causing the person some significant dysfunction. And even then, altering someone's chemistry so that they no longer experience "God" doesn't mean their experiences were not real god-experiences. It's entirely possible that the chemistry was simply an enabler. And there's no way any psychiatrist on Earth would know otherwise.

Kenny · Sep 21, 2017

RedDragon94 said:
It depend upon the definition of God, he/she cannot be a perfect being. If he/she was there would be no problems in this world which would make life more enjoyable for everyone. A perfect God must yield to a perfect world.

I'm going to vote that we do have knowledge of God. This is because we do have knowledge, period. All knowledge intersects with science (the subject), science (or scientia in latin) is knowledge, therefore science is the best theology. Theology that goes against science ought to be rejected, it makes no difference to me whether someone else lives in delusion.

We have heard that theology is the science of God when maybe it's actually that science is the theology of truth.

I don't know whether Paganism/Neopaganism is accurate now.

Bottom line: Science reveals God.

Actually, I'll say other.

I'm not so sure....

Perhaps it should be worded different and more exact... we may not have all knowledge of God, but to say we have no knowledge, IMO, wouldn't be correct.

To say that Theology goes against science would be partially correct. If God is God, then he could violate science. There would be a balance somewhere.

To say that God is not a perfect being in that we don't live in a perfect world, IMV, could be a wrong premise if we don't understand why He created the world in the first place and how the spiritual laws work.

Are people who claim to know God liars?

What do you think of people who claim knowledge of God

They are liars

They are self deluded

Of course we have knowledge of God

Other, I suppose in case someone feels there's a better position to take.

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