How are these Great Beings explained?

Dawnofhope · Sep 19, 2017

Vinayaka said:
He made no reference to nuclear, just armaments. Lots of folk could have foreseen that. But really this is just the difference between prophet based religions and the rest of us. In prophet based religions, almost by definition, the prophet holds all the wisdom, while the rest of us are fools. In non-prophet based religion, wisdom is spread around a little more. Also has to do with where God is. Again, very different paradigms.

India's nuclear stuff is just to balance Pakistan's, which is a very real danger, as is North Korea. It's the nutcases we all have to watch out for.

Arguably Baha'u'llah did make reference to nuclear weapons:

“Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal.”
Baha’u’llah, The Tablets of Paradise (circa 1891)

Again in regards to the need for international cooperation:
“The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men.”
Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah (circa 1881)

The only reason we have some semblence of international cooperation is because its necessity was so clearly apparent in the aftermath of both WWI and WWII. Inhabitants of every country regards members of every other country as 'nutters', and that is the justification for the proliferation of nuclear weapons. North Korea regards the West with suspicion and derision as does Iran. Their argument becomes, if this country can have nuclear weapons, why can't we. Unfortunately this approach just heightens the risk of a catastrophe of monumental proportions for us all.

The Abrahamic tradtions date back thousands of years as with Hindu traditions. The Abrahamic Faiths have inspired great and profound intellectual developments throughout history. It has been the West that has promoted social and technological advances that have positivly shaped todays world. India appears to have been slow to adapt to the modern era and a fairer distribution of the benefits of modernism has often been hindered, not helped by Hindu traditions. I don't think your analysis holds up.

Unveiled Artist · Sep 19, 2017

@Tony Bristow-Stagg Im just remembering mg queation. What type of creatures does bahaullah speak of and why does god give humans his undivided attention?

Dawnofhope · Sep 19, 2017

CG Didymus said:
If a Baha'i studies Christianity, which sect will he/she study? Fundies are an important Protestant group. The Catholics and Orthodox need to be looked at. JW's and Mormons have to part of the study. But the main Baha'i study of the Bible and Christianity is probably going to be what the Baha'i Faith says about it. And look what happened when Baha'is did that with Hinduism.

The Bible seems like the most sensible starting point to study Christianity.

In medicine, 75-85 % of the diagnoses is made on the basis of taking a history from the patient, 10 - 15 % through examination, and about 5 % through investigations such as bloods tests and radiographs. The most important part of understanding anyone is taking the time to listen to what they have to say and to ensure we have understood them fully. I think it is the same in religion. Take the time to listen and understand people. Avoid telling people what they really believe in because of what we believe in. Its all about communication and sincerity. Its all about humility because as soon as we imagine ourselves to be more, we are less. We're all in it together and no one is any better than anyone else, and none of us know for certain what our fate will be.

CG Didymus said:
So why study all these sects of Christianity? A Baha'i doesn't believe any of them have the correct interpretation. So doesn't it come down to learning about them to try and convince them that the Baha'i Faith is the fulfillment of their Christian beliefs?

Baha'is believe in most of what Christians believe in. We need to be descent human beings first and get along with most people we come in contact with. I would hope that very little of our precious time with others is spent discussing prophecy, and only when there others are interested to hear. I'm sure our conversation about Revelations will be boring others on this thread witless. However you keep asking the questions, and I'll keep looking for answers.

Vinayaka · Sep 19, 2017

adrian009 said:
Arguably Baha'u'llah did make reference to nuclear weapons:

The only reason we have some semblence of international cooperation is because its necessity was so clearly apparent in the aftermath of both WWI and WWII. Inhabitants of every country regards members of every other country as 'nutters', and that is the justification for the proliferation of nuclear weapons. North Korea regards the West with suspicion and derision as does Iran. Their argument becomes, if this country can have nuclear weapons, why can't we. Unfortunately this approach just heightens the risk of a catastrophe of monumental proportions for us all.

The Abrahamic tradtions date back thousands of years as with Hindu traditions. The Abrahamic Faiths have inspired great and profound intellectual developments throughout history. It has been the West that has promoted social and technological advances that have positivly shaped todays world. India appears to have been slow to adapt to the modern era and a fairer distribution of the benefits of modernism has often been hindered, not helped by Hindu traditions. I don't think your analysis holds up.

Arguably, yes. Operative word being arguably. Not a fact.

The Baha'i' has a better approach than to store equal power for defense? Letting groups assemble massive armies and weaponry hasn't worked in the past. It's been a disaster. Personally, I think SALT talks were a good start, but it didn't end as it could have.

Both civilisations/paradigms have contributed a lot. Western history tends to ignore contributions from dharmic lands. India has contributed a ton in terms of technology, let alone concepts like ahimsa.

List of Indian inventions and discoveries - Wikipedia

The modernism being held back was mostly due to exploitation by invading foreigners. All third worls countries have had that fate.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 19, 2017

Vinayaka said:
The Baha'i' has a better approach than to store equal power for defense? Letting groups assemble massive armies and weaponry hasn't worked in the past. It's been a disaster. Personally, I think SALT talks were a good start, but it didn't end as it could have.

The answer is disarmament of Nations to all but the arms required by internal police forces.

The world body holds the forces required to police world affairs.

If a Government arises, the whole world subdues them. This is naught but manifest justice.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Sep 20, 2017

Carlita said:
@Tony Bristow-Stagg Im just remembering mg queation. What type of creatures does bahaullah speak of and why does god give humans his undivided attention?

I will start with the 2nd question, "Why does god give humans his undivided attention"?

Baha'u'llah has answered this for you;

"..Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation.… Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty.…"

The first Question was; "What type of creatures does Baha'u'llah speak of"?

The best answer is this;

"Regarding the passage on p. 163 of the ‘Gleanings‘; the creatures which Bahá’u’lláh states to be found in every planet cannot be considered to be necessarily similar or different from human beings on this earth. Bahá’u’lláh does not specifically state whether such creatures are like or unlike us. He simply refers to the fact that there are creatures in every planet. It remains for science to discover one day the exact nature of these creatures. (Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance p. 478)

As to the capacity of these creatures, this has been said;

‘Abdu’l-Bahá stated there are other worlds than ours which are inhabited by beings capable of knowing God. (Shoghi Effendi, The Light of Divine Guidance v II, p. 79)

How this could be all connected is reflected in this passage;

"Through His potency the Trees of Divine Revelation have yielded their fruits, every one of which hath been sent down in the form of a Prophet, bearing a Message to God’s creatures in each of the worlds whose number God, alone, in His all-encompassing knowledge, can reckon. (Bahá’u’lláh, Advent of Divine Justice, p. 80)

So, yes it is not all about us, it is bigger than this world, it is bigger than this universe;

"Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures. In each of these worlds He hath ordained things which none can search except Himself, the All-Searching, the All-Wise. (Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh p. 187-188)

Stay well and happy, regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Sep 20, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Arguably, yes. Operative word being arguably. Not a fact.

There are other references, these also give the same reflections;

"...The Japanese Ambassador to a European capital (Viscount Arakawa—Madrid) was staying at the Hotel d’Jéna. This gentleman and his wife had been told of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s presence in Paris, and the latter was anxious to have the privilege of meeting Him. This is an Excerpt from The Chosen Highway by Lady Blomfield, Concerning that meeting of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and the Japanese Diplomat in 1912. This is what Abdul'baha said to the Japanese Ambassador;

“Scientific discoveries have increased material civilization. There is in existence a stupendous force, as yet, happily undiscovered by man. Let us supplicate God, the Beloved, that this force be not discovered by science until spiritual civilization shall dominate the human mind. In the hands of men of lower nature, this power would be able to destroy the whole earth.”

Another quote from Baha'u'llah that references a poem of Rumi;

"Split the atom's heart, and Lo! within it thou wilt find a sun."

Regards Tony

Dawnofhope · Sep 20, 2017

Vinayaka said:
The Baha'i' has a better approach than to store equal power for defense? Letting groups assemble massive armies and weaponry hasn't worked in the past. It's been a disaster. Personally, I think SALT talks were a good start, but it didn't end as it could have.

I think there would be a small minority who believes the current state of nine countries with nuclear weapons as desirable.

Nuclear forces reduced while modernizations continue, says SIPRI | SIPRI

There has been progress with international cooperation with the development of the aborted League of Nations and much more successful United Nations. It is clear that the current state of world affairs is precarious and a huge risk to us all.

Baha'u'llah's vision for an all embracing assembly of Nations in the 19th century showed remarkable insight and vision. It may not have been unique, but it was certainly ubnusual for someone within 19th century Persia or the Ottoman Empire to be thinking this way. One of the few encounters with a Westerner was with Professor Browne of Cambridge University. Heres a record of his experiences with Baha'u'llah.

Professor Browne meets Bahá’u’lláh - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

Vinayaka said:
Both civilisations/paradigms have contributed a lot.

While that is true, few historians would doubt the overwhelming contribution from Industrialised Europe as been THE major factor.

Vinayaka said:
Western history tends to ignore contributions from dharmic lands.

In these days of globalisation there are an abundance of Western thinkers and historians who consider the contributions of the East.

Vinayaka said:
India has contributed a ton in terms of technology, let alone concepts like ahimsa.

I'm finding it a little difficult to see how India being one of the countries with nuclear weapons has contributed to Ahisma. Would you elaborate please.

Vinayaka said:
List of Indian inventions and discoveries - Wikipedia

The modernism being held back was mostly due to exploitation by invading foreigners. All third worls countries have had that fate.

It could also be argued the other way. That exposure to Western ideas provided exposure to new ideas and opportunities that wouldn't have been possible otherwise.

RoaringSilence · Sep 20, 2017

Adrian , according to sikhism , god's definition

Ik- There is ONE(Ik) reality, the origin and the source of everything. The creation did not come out of nothing. When there was nothing, there was ONE, Ik.
Onkaar- When Ik becomes the creative principal it becomes Onkaar. Onkaar manifests as visible and invisible phenomenon. The creative principle is not separated from the created, it is present throughout the creation in an unbroken form, 'kaar'.
Satnaam- The sustaining principle of Ik is Satnaam, the True Name, True Name.
Kartaa Purakh- Ik Onkaar is Creator and Doer (Kartaa) of everything, all the seen and unseen phenomenon. It is not just a law or a system, it is a Purakh, a Person.
Nirbhau- That Ik Onkaar is devoid of any fear, because there is nothing but itself.
Nirvair- That Ik Onkaar is devoid of any enmity because there is nothing but itself.
Akaal Moorat- That Ik Onkaar is beyond Time (Akaal) and yet it is existing. Its a Form(Moorat) which does not exist in Time.
Ajooni- That Ik Onkaar does not condense and come into any birth. All the phenomenon of birth and death of forms are within it.
Saibhang- That Ik Onkaar exists on its own, by its own. It is not caused by anything before it or beyond it.
Gurprasaad- That Ik Onkaar is expresses itself through a channel known as Guru and it is only its own Grace and Mercy (Prasaad) that this happens.

this is attuned with Dharmic belief and definition , god is free from jealousy (nirvair )

and sikhism also talks of eliminating the 5 vices like all dharmic religions do.. ie. kaam krodh lobh moh ahankaar - lust anger greed attachment and ego .

vs abrahamic where you admit god is jealous.. ( that is a tainted trait ) any spirit with pure white light would have no taints (shades ) and vices = shades ..so abrahamic god may have power but its shaded . the real one is colorless white light .

Vinayaka · Sep 20, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The answer is disarmament of Nations to all but the arms required by internal police forces.

The world body holds the forces required to police world affairs.

If a Government arises, the whole world subdues them. This is naught but manifest justice.

Regards Tony

You have an implementation plan?

Vinayaka · Sep 20, 2017

adrian009 said:
I'm finding it a little difficult to see how India being one of the countries with nuclear weapons has contributed to Ahisma. Would you elaborate please.

When is the last time India invaded anyone?

Dawnofhope · Sep 20, 2017

Vinayaka said:
When is the last time India invaded anyone?

How about divided with significance violence and death of both Muslims and Hindus.

The newly formed governments were completely unequipped to deal with migrations of such staggering magnitude, and massive violence and slaughter occurred on both sides of the border. Estimates of the number of deaths vary, with low estimates at 200,000 and high estimates at 2,000,000. Virtually no Muslim survived in East Punjab (except in Malerkotla) and virtually no Hindu or Sikh survived in West Punjab.

Lawrence James observed that "'Sir Francis Mudie, the governor of West Punjab, estimated that 500,000 Muslims died trying to enter his province, while the British high commissioner in Karachi put the full total at 800,000…This makes nonsense of the claim by Mountbatten and his partisans that only 200,000 were killed' [James 1998: 636]".

Partition of India - Wikipedia

RoaringSilence · Sep 20, 2017

adrian009 said:
How about divided with significance violence and death of both Muslims and Hindus.

The newly formed governments were completely unequipped to deal with migrations of such staggering magnitude, and massive violence and slaughter occurred on both sides of the border. Estimates of the number of deaths vary, with low estimates at 200,000 and high estimates at 2,000,000. Virtually no Muslim survived in East Punjab (except in Malerkotla) and virtually no Hindu or Sikh survived in West Punjab.

Lawrence James observed that "'Sir Francis Mudie, the governor of West Punjab, estimated that 500,000 Muslims died trying to enter his province, while the British high commissioner in Karachi put the full total at 800,000…This makes nonsense of the claim by Mountbatten and his partisans that only 200,000 were killed' [James 1998: 636]".

Partition of India - Wikipedia

it had little to do with religion .. the reality is goons .. robbers and looters took advantage and robbed people , raped and killed when someone became a problem.. there wasn't a hindu muslim thing ..there was a sort of a property grab madness ..but it was a handful goons who took charge..

similar to the goons in australia who thrashed and killed brown students .on racist grounds..india dint stop exporting students just a coz of a few racists we didn't blame the rest of Australia.

Dawnofhope · Sep 20, 2017

RoaringSilence said:
it had little to do with religion .. the reality is goons .. robbers and looters took advantage and robbed people , raped and killed when someone became a problem.. there wasn't a hindu muslim thing ..there was a sort of a property grab madness ..but it was a handful goons who took charge..

Most conflict isn't about religion. Same deal for the Abrahamics .

However peoples faith in this case didn't seem to help them rise above their base nature when it really counted.

Vinayaka · Sep 20, 2017

adrian009 said:
How about divided with significance violence and death of both Muslims and Hindus.

The newly formed governments were completely unequipped to deal with migrations of such staggering magnitude, and massive violence and slaughter occurred on both sides of the border. Estimates of the number of deaths vary, with low estimates at 200,000 and high estimates at 2,000,000. Virtually no Muslim survived in East Punjab (except in Malerkotla) and virtually no Hindu or Sikh survived in West Punjab.

Lawrence James observed that "'Sir Francis Mudie, the governor of West Punjab, estimated that 500,000 Muslims died trying to enter his province, while the British high commissioner in Karachi put the full total at 800,000…This makes nonsense of the claim by Mountbatten and his partisans that only 200,000 were killed' [James 1998: 636]".

Partition of India - Wikipedia

I asked, 'how about invaded? and you managed to avoid the question by shifting it to something else.

Much of Hindu India didn't want partition. It was the Muslims that insisted. Not just that, but Britain had a ton to with the entire problem, just as France had a ton to do with Viet Nam. It's complicated for sure.

In India today, as you go further south, there is less animosity amongst the people of the two faiths. Another way is to look at how Hindus in Pakistan have practically disappeared over the past 60 years, while the Islamic population in India has remained constant. The two faiths are really incredibly far apart.

But I would expect nothing else of an Abrahamic than to defend western values, and look to the east for the world's woes. We're used to it.

War stats are just war stats. Distortion happens on both sides. If you want to see how far that can go, I'd suggest looking at tamilnet and them lankaweb. Two 'news' papers talking about the same thing, with amazingly opposite viewpoints.

Vinayaka · Sep 20, 2017

Adrian, you seem to think I'm anti-western. I would disagree with that idea. I am anti-colonialism, anti-greed, anti-conversion, anti-exploitation. But much of the west is not so much like that. By looking at negatives, it may seem like we're ignoring positives, but it's a situation of when you see others ignoring negatives, you have to pint them out.

Ideally , any new society will have the best of the east, the best of the west, and ignore the rest.

loverofhumanity · Sep 20, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Arguably, yes. Operative word being arguably. Not a fact.

The Baha'i' has a better approach than to store equal power for defense? Letting groups assemble massive armies and weaponry hasn't worked in the past. It's been a disaster. Personally, I think SALT talks were a good start, but it didn't end as it could have.

Both civilisations/paradigms have contributed a lot. Western history tends to ignore contributions from dharmic lands. India has contributed a ton in terms of technology, let alone concepts like ahimsa.

List of Indian inventions and discoveries - Wikipedia

The modernism being held back was mostly due to exploitation by invading foreigners. All third worls countries have had that fate.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I will start with the 2nd question, "Why does god give humans his undivided attention"?

Baha'u'llah has answered this for you;

"..Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation.… Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty.…"

The first Question was; "What type of creatures does Baha'u'llah speak of"?

The best answer is this;

"Regarding the passage on p. 163 of the ‘Gleanings‘; the creatures which Bahá’u’lláh states to be found in every planet cannot be considered to be necessarily similar or different from human beings on this earth. Bahá’u’lláh does not specifically state whether such creatures are like or unlike us. He simply refers to the fact that there are creatures in every planet. It remains for science to discover one day the exact nature of these creatures. (Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance p. 478)

As to the capacity of these creatures, this has been said;

‘Abdu’l-Bahá stated there are other worlds than ours which are inhabited by beings capable of knowing God. (Shoghi Effendi, The Light of Divine Guidance v II, p. 79)

How this could be all connected is reflected in this passage;

"Through His potency the Trees of Divine Revelation have yielded their fruits, every one of which hath been sent down in the form of a Prophet, bearing a Message to God’s creatures in each of the worlds whose number God, alone, in His all-encompassing knowledge, can reckon. (Bahá’u’lláh, Advent of Divine Justice, p. 80)

So, yes it is not all about us, it is bigger than this world, it is bigger than this universe;

"Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures. In each of these worlds He hath ordained things which none can search except Himself, the All-Searching, the All-Wise. (Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh p. 187-188)

Stay well and happy, regards Tony

Hi Tony. I knew there were other beings on other planets but never read until now any authoritative letters that there were other beings capable of knowing God on other worlds. Is there a pdf of the Light of Guidance as it seems to be two volumes of dated letters of Shoghi Effendi But finding a subject is daunting?

Many thanks.

RoaringSilence · Sep 20, 2017

loverofhumanity said:
Hi Tony. I knew there were other beings on other planets but never read until now any authoritative letters that there were other beings capable of knowing God on other worlds. Is there a pdf of the Light of Guidance as it seems to be two volumes of dated letters of Shoghi Effendi But finding a subject is daunting?

Many thanks.

you 'll be shocked to know that it is a serious reality ...just watch these vids...

watch this guy's entire channel is full of evidence..there is one vid where he shows you how the various avatar's were scientefically planned to show evolution .. ill post it as soon as i find it.

..found it

loverofhumanity · Sep 20, 2017

RoaringSilence said:
you 'll be shocked to know that it is a serious reality ...just watch these vids...

watch this guy's entire channel is full of evidence..there is one vid where he shows you how the various avatar's were scientefically planned to show evolution .. ill post it as soon as i find it.

..found it

Thank you so much for these videos. I watched both of them and it’s just fascinating. Absolutely awesome!,

InvestigateTruth · Sep 20, 2017

Vinayaka said:
But the fact that this system sees itself as Baha'i' being the state religion, like Islam is in so many countries today, is troubling. Fortunately, I don't figure it's going to happen. So much knowledge would be lost, just like so much knowledge has already been lost by such ideas.

One of the fundamental concepts that Bahaullah emphasized more than many other things, is 'worldly power and wealth' are only important to a misguided people. I am saying this, to make it clear that a 'Bahai state', in no wise denotes a world dominated by Bahai people in a sense that you would see in todays Islam world. This idea is totally incompatible with the doctrines of Bahai Faith, and the spirit of Bahai teachings. However, Bahais believe the world and society needs laws and order to prevent chias and unjustice. We cannot say, the thiefs or murderers must be left free to do whatever. We need Laws, and Bahai believe, part of Religion of God, teaches the required Laws for the age.

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