How are these Great Beings explained?

RoaringSilence · Sep 18, 2017

Carlita said:
I wanted to add a word of wisdom of what my father told me. Since he is ill, he's been poppin up with newly discovered eureka moments.

He says... "that everyone is out trying to save the planet. People recycle and have these environmenal organizations to preserve the earth....but the earth will go on Without us. The earth doesnt care what we do because we are not even the smallest part of the galaxy. Why would our universe care about us?"

Its the same with humanity. There are billions of people on this earth. Billions of people have died saying "we will have world peace by our efforts". It is literally impossible to have world peace because everyone is his own island.

The earth/humanity will go on without us. We have organizations and things to help people while they are alive at present. But to "try to save" humanity from its future. When we die, humanity goes on without us. Until we realize we will die, our perspective of life and salvation will be future tense.

I mean, they keep telling my father to put his name on the liver transplant list. He says "Im an old man [which he isnt]. I did everything I needed to do in life." And when I talked about my ancestors he says let the dead sleep.

Maybe we should be looking for peace within our own community, family, and/or self. Find peace with a method and outcome you can control and somewhat predict.

But World peace? And why this world? And if god is the god of the universe, what sparks his attention with humans and not Galafitians in the fifth quarter of the six outer galazy which is fifteeth rock of its two suns?

I never understood peace on a global level. Especially when a god is involved.

if humans want to learn world peace ..learn from ants not god.. ants know how to work as a community in a non voilent way and how to pick that one grain of sugar that i dropped by accident.
or even a whole sugar cube that magically walks when ants are under it. maybe they have a jesus or a mohd. who taught them the real deal without meddling into which ant hole was the choosen ants , or which ants are evil doers. or which ant worships a sand dune and not the ant hill.

Dawnofhope · Sep 18, 2017

CG Didymus said:
If the Lamb is anybody he has to be either Jesus or Baha'u'llah. The Lamb is the only one worthy. The Lamb is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. In the New Jerusalem the Lord God and the Lamb are its light and its temple. I don't see how that can be The Bab, Abdu'l Baha or the Baha'i Era.

We can only see what we can see, and that's fine.

Abdu'l-Baha has an unique role in religious history. He is considered by Baha'is to be the perfect exemplar of Baha'u'llah's teachings. That makes him the perfect Baha'i without being a manifestation, so in Christian terminology the first fruits. Through Baha'u'llah's revelation a new spiritual capacity is infused on the entire creation and there must arise a worldwide community that exemplify HIs teachings. Does that relate to the lamb and 144,000?

Adbu'l-Baha was also considered the Centre of the Covenant. He was the one who the Baha'is turned to after Baha'u'llah's passing, as Baha'u'llah had explicitly indicated His eldest son to be His successor in His will and testament as well as some other writings. Abdu'l-Baha in turn wrote a will indicating the twin successors, the Guardian and the Universal House of Justice. Therefore, unlike Christianity and Islam we have a clear succession of authority that has been passed down and remains today through the Universal House of Justice.

Abdu'l-Baha wrote two out of three charters of the Baha'i Faith in regards to a future civilisation, the tablets of the Divine plan as well as his will and testament. The other charter is of course the Kitab-I-Aqdas or most Holy Book written by Baha'u'llah.

It was also Abdu'l-Baha who established the Baha'i Faith in the West through His travels to the West but also his close nurturing of the American Baha'i community.

CG Didymus said:
The Lamb is the dominate figure in the Revelation. The Lamb was slain, though. So how do you even make him Baha'u'llah?

Lamb theology eh?

CG Didymus said:
It's going to tough to convince Christians this is not Jesus, their Lord and Savior.

Here's the irony. Most Christians are not ready to hear that. You are.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 18, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Some day we'll have to look at the very concept of ownership, in particular land ownership.

Yes this will most likely need to be done. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens. In the end we need a plot to live, work from and raise our families.

Carlita said:
By what method would you use for my to understand global peace since I do not understand what a god is?

If you were in my community I would invite you to share a meal and a chat. I would invite you to join in community building activities.

Regards Tony

Vinayaka · Sep 18, 2017

adrian009 said:
What was the specific conflict between China and Islam you had in mind?

Ownership of land is arguably a much more significant cause of war and oppression than religion. The driving force of colonisation has arguably been economic exploitation, rather than religious promotion.

I had no conflict in mind. My comment was just about China, not Islam related.

Ownership is one of those concepts that isn't transferable between cultures. Many indigenous peoples saw land as we see the sky in that regard. So sticking some flag in a plot of ground, or getting out surveying equipment was outside their field. There was a ton of sharing going on in many of those societies.

Ownership, though, is a great example of how when certain concepts aren't transferable, trouble ensues. That's why Baha'i's will never understand Hinduism. It tales lifetimes, not intellect.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 18, 2017

adrian009 said:
Here's the irony. Most Christians are not ready to hear that. You are.

Which raises the least contemplated warning in scriptures by a Christain.

Matthew 19:30 "But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first."

Matthew 20:16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

Regards Tony

Vinayaka · Sep 18, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Yes this will most likely need to be done. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens. In the end we need a plot to live, work from and raise our families.

Communal systems often work really well, with no individual ownership. Monasteries, certain communes, and large extended families come to mind.

Dawnofhope · Sep 18, 2017

Vinayaka said:
I had no conflict in mind. My comment was just about China, not Islam related.

Ownership is one of those concepts that isn't transferable between cultures. Many indigenous peoples saw land as we see the sky in that regard. So sticking some flag in a plot of ground, or getting out surveying equipment was outside their field. There was a ton of sharing going on in many of those societies.

Ownership, though, is a great example of how when certain concepts aren't transferable, trouble ensues. That's why Baha'i's will never understand Hinduism. It tales lifetimes, not intellect.

None of us owns anything really. We are all just wayfarers passing through this brief journey on earth we call life. We can't take any possessions with us. Can we even claim ownership over our very souls?

Baha'is have one shot at it. You get many life times. What the truth is God only knows.

Vinayaka · Sep 18, 2017

adrian009 said:
None of us owns anything really. We are all just wayfarers passing through this brief journey on earth we call life. We can't take any possessions with us. Can we even claim ownership over our very souls?

Yes of course, the problem is we think we do. I had some insightful discussions with Grade 6 kids over the use of 'my desk' etc. Your last sentence show a difference in paradigms. I would say, can we claim ownership over these bodies, these egos? Temporal stuff.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 18, 2017

Vinayaka said:
I would say, can we claim ownership over these bodies, these egos? Temporal stuff.

We can learn control.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Sep 18, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Communal systems often work really well, with no individual ownership. Monasteries, certain communes, and large extended families come to mind.

I have a background that includes town planning and it has some interest with me.

The vision I see for the future is that cities are doomed. They feed Materialisim.

If we want jobs for all, the services have to be more widley spread so remote communities have an opportunity for work. Currently in the town I live in with around 1900 residents, a vast majority can not find work. Thus families have to suffer if children have to get work, they have to leave.

The Future will see communitues built around the place of worship which is surrounded by all the Administration, Health services, hospitals, old age care and services for the poor and needy. Each community I can see would produce a percentage of its needs in food and energy, thus giving jobs back to community.

I thought it would be good to do up a tiwn plan for such a community and then come back in a couple of hundred yeras to see how wrong it was.

Regards Tony

Vinayaka · Sep 18, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
We can learn control.

Regards Tony

I have no idea what you mean by this. My comment was to Adrian, how he said we have a soul, whereas I would say we have a physical body. I have no idea how saying 'we can learn control' has anything to do with this.

Vinayaka · Sep 18, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I have a background that includes town planning and it has some interest with me.

The vision I see for the future is that cities are doomed. They feed Materialisim.

If we want jobs for all, the services have to be more widley spread so remote communities have an opportunity for work. Currently in the town I live in with around 1900 residents, a vast majority can not find work. Thus families have to suffer if children have to get work, they have to leave.

The Future will see communitues built around the place of worship which is surrounded by all the Administration, Health services, hospitals, old age care and services for the poor and needy. Each community I can see would produce a percentage of its needs in food and energy, thus giving jobs back to community.

I thought it would be good to do up a tiwn plan for such a community and then come back in a couple of hundred yeras to see how wrong it was.

Regards Tony

I actually don't think this idea is unrealistic. There are models of it in history. There is a town near me that was once like that. Even now we can see a trend back to localised economies here and there. Still, the internet and other factors allow for more globalised thinking while still maintaining local communities.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 18, 2017

Vinayaka said:
I would say, can we claim ownership over these bodies, these egos? Temporal stuff.

Vinayaka said:
I have no idea what you mean by this. My comment was to Adrian, how he said we have a soul, whereas I would say we have a physical body. I have no idea how saying 'we can learn control' has anything to do with this.

I suggested Ownership is self control. Self control is finding the correct balance of self, balanced with the virtues in a world that will feed self all it desires.

Regards Tony

Unveiled Artist · Sep 18, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Yes this will most likely need to be done. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens. In the end we need a plot to live, work from and raise our families.

If you were in my community I would invite you to share a meal and a chat. I would invite you to join in community building activities.

Regards Tony

I do that in my communities who believe in world peace too. Im sure you all share something in common. Communion through Mass, a brunch with friends, chanting with members, eating with my Sangha are good examplea of bring peace. Each in our differeing ways.

Im asking, though, what is unique that you can explain or show me about world peace through bahai eyes-something that will let me experience it and understand where I would not elsewhere?

Vinayaka · Sep 18, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I suggested Ownership is self control. Self control is finding the correct balance of self, balanced with the virtues in a world that will feed self all it desires.

Regards Tony

Okay. Not that I understand.

To me, ownership is a concept, putting one's ego out there, having dominion over things. There is one (at least) indigenous tribe here that is famous for giving up their possession whenever anyone else expresses interest. So if you and I were visiting, and you said, "I like your shirt." I'd be culturally obliged to give it to you right there. The chap explaining this was joking that some shirts had really been around. So, in that culture, ownership isn't at all as well defined as in others.

I understand self-control as an entirely different concept. It's about self-discipline of behaviour, not about things (ownership) at all.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 18, 2017

Carlita said:
I do that in my communities who believe in world peace too. Im sure you all share something in common. Communion through Mass, a brunch with friends, chanting with members, eating with my Sangha are good examplea of bring peace. Each in our differeing ways.

Im asking, though, what is unique that you can explain or show me about world peace through bahai eyes-something that will let me experience it and understand where I would not elsewhere?

The thing to consider here Calita is that it has alreay commenced.

Many of the things you now experience that have broken down walls and barriers, is what can be shown Baha'u'llah had offered as a requirement;

“THE world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed."

This system also includes aspects in it such as mankind setting up a body like the United Nations, but with teeth and justice. The leauge of Nations was Founded knowing of Baha'u'llahs requirements, but both the League which then became the United Nations, failed to implement important aspects to make it work effectively.

Remember this was one aspect Baha'u'llah foretold of before man even saw it was neccessary.

From there, there are many aspects that could be discussed. Things we may now see as common thought, but were ridiculed when Baha'u'llah revealed them.

Regards Tony

RoaringSilence · Sep 18, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
That comment could apply in reverse.

i know where your journey begins and ends , i know the destination .. been there done that, the bliss of the knowledge of god that you enjoy , That ocean is being churned by the manifested and those in service of the manifested . you wouldn't understand this. Let's say god said we need fuel for hellfire? i am the fuel that keeps you warm.

Unveiled Artist · Sep 18, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Yes this will most likely need to be done. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens. In the end we need a plot to live, work from and raise our families.

If you were in my community I would invite you to share a meal and a chat. I would invite you to join in community building activities.

Regards Tony

Tony, the original question I asked @loverofhumanity. If you'd like to engage in discussion, it has to work both ways with both parties interested in having each a discussion to understand from each other's viewpoints not just our own. That is what peace means.

But World peace? And why this world? And if god is the god of the universe, what sparks his attention with humans and not Galafitians in the fifth quarter of the six outer galaxy which is fifteenth rock of its two suns?

"...As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise....... Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures. In each of these worlds He hath ordained things which none can search except Himself, the All-Searching, the All-Wise."

I asked you

Did Bahaullah describe what these different worlds are and what "creatures" exist there? and Did god explain why humans deserve his undivided attention?

Remember, I'm asking about your faith. Dialogue is a two way street.

I do not understand global peace. If you want me to understand it, you have to stoop down to My level of understanding. You would have to ask how I see things in order to explain your views in the manner I would understand.

I asked questions about bahaullah above. By what method would you use for my to understand global peace since I do not understand what a god is?

Let me switch it up since I already know what you believe about lesser peace for the world. You haven't attempted to explain it from how I see it (kind of like talking to a kindergartener as if he was a college student instead of stooping down to his level, changing your language, and learning about how he takes in information before giving it). I haven't understood that fully from how I personally understand things, only Bahai.

Last question.

Does this also (with my other questions) apply to spiritual greater world peace or lesser?

TransmutingSoul · Sep 18, 2017

RoaringSilence said:
i know where your journey begins and ends , i know the destination .. been there done that, the bliss of the knowledge of god that you enjoy , That ocean is being churned by the manifested and those in service of the manifested . you wouldn't understand this. Let's say god said we need fuel for hellfire? i am the fuel that keeps you warm.

That is a very important position you have considered you have been given.

Is the fuel ego?

Regards Tony

RoaringSilence · Sep 18, 2017

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
That is a very important position you have considered you have been given.

Is the fuel ego?

Regards Tony

you think god is dumb or powerless? everything exists for a reason. says krishna ..krishna's avatar died to a curse by the mother of the 100 kauravas , to make a point. if i don't respect my own system of karma, i would be blamed for creating a meaningless universe / sansara .

Krishna avatar's death is written in the same mahabharat from where the bhagwat gita is taken out from . Hindus know how krishna avatar died . yet you might wonder what makes them call him the supreme if he died.Hindus also know the idols are made of stone. it might be hard for you to believe this ...the idol worshipers actually KNOW that they worship stone... yet they do it. Why? you may never find out. coz you have your ticket next to the throne of god. so why bother lol ?

just be happy to know you got the easy deal, at the cost of xyz.

but if you are too egar to find out ..just try to understand the meaning of the word LEELA and maya , then find out what is MAHA-KAAL don't dive too deep if you are scared of losing your spot in heaven . lololol

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