Fascination with evil

What do you suppose our fascination with evil is all about?

To me, it’s logical that we would want to avoid evil, walk the other way. We don’t tend to though. I am in no way denigrating the “good Samaritan” response to the results of evil. I wish there were more of that in me.

However, are we drawn to the appearance of power in evil? A desire to control others?

Is it self-defense? Sort of inuring ourselves by over-exposure? Or maybe making light of it by creating horror stories/films we can laugh about?

I know many people purport dwelling on it to destroy it. Haven’t seen that work much though.

One thing I have noticed: the evil scenario tends to be recursive, building on itself. Eventually it self-destructs, but very painfully.

Do you think the “get thee behind me” or “shake the dust off your feet” approaches offer reasonable defense strategies? Actually getting past evil is kind of tough. There’s an almost hypnotic appeal.

I ponder.

Horror stories were invented to make the Catholic Church look good. For instance, in vampire movies who is less evil, the Catholic Priest practicing idolatry with Holy Water and the Cross, or the Vampires?

I think it's because of the way the world is - very competitive, dog-eat-dog, big fish eat the little fish. The lions are the winners, while the lambs are the losers. I think people are fascinated by winning, and it's a matter of winning being more important than how you play the game. You can win much more easily by cheating, and I think this is where the fascination with evil begins.

If there is no God nor any Afterlife, then there is no ultimate punishment for being evil. That would mean the only way to deal with evil in this life is to fight fire with fire, which means becoming the very "evil" one seeks to fight. Those who are "good" have no other choice but to perish - unless they choose to be "evil." Without any kind of "referee" on the playing field, then the players have to make their own rules.

Some might even argue that it's religion itself which allows evil to propagate. Evil happens, yet religions tell people to just take it, to not fight back, to turn the other cheek and to leave vengeance in the hands of God. That's why some might see religion as ultimately deceptive, since it ostensibly serves the interests of evil more than it serves the interests of good.

Kemosloby said:

the Catholic Priest practicing idolatry with Holy Water and the Cross,

Click to expand...

Say what?

WalterTrull said:

What do you suppose our fascination with evil is all about?

To me, it’s logical that we would want to avoid evil, walk the other way. We don’t tend to though. I am in no way denigrating the “good Samaritan” response to the results of evil. I wish there were more of that in me.

However, are we drawn to the appearance of power in evil? A desire to control others?

Is it self-defense? Sort of inuring ourselves by over-exposure? Or maybe making light of it by creating horror stories/films we can laugh about?

I know many people purport dwelling on it to destroy it. Haven’t seen that work much though.

One thing I have noticed: the evil scenario tends to be recursive, building on itself. Eventually it self-destructs, but very painfully.

Do you think the “get thee behind me” or “shake the dust off your feet” approaches offer reasonable defense strategies? Actually getting past evil is kind of tough. There’s an almost hypnotic appeal.

I ponder.

Click to expand...

Our understanding of freedom has evolved and grown quite a long way from its secular origins in the enlightenment. We have pushed back morality as a form of restriction on individual autonomy over the past two centuries. A lot of what was once considered evil has become accepted into our society. This is especially true when it comes to our increasing openness about sexuality, such as pornography, homosexuality and women's rights. The pace of liberalisation has been very dramatic (in historical terms) and our ability to make moral decisions is still trying to catch up.

I think the fascination with evil has, at least in part, to do with our desire for freedom and the breakdown of systems of control that have existed for many centuries. We like things that are pleasurable and live in a society where we are (relatively) "free" to pursue pleasure. But it is often unclear where something are considered "bad" when they feel "good" and it is something that can be exploited by advertisers by trying to make their products seem "tempting" and "attractive" by appealing to our dark side and our repressed desires.

Moreover, technologically we now have such an immense destructive power with nuclear weapons, our ability to manufacture (as well as cure) disease, destroy the planet and find new ways to kill each other and create suffering, that it is getting harder to hide from the contradictions between our belief in a relatively fixed morality derived from nature and the rapid changes in technology that mean we have more power to create and destroy than at any previous point in history.

It is fair to say that we are heading towards a tipping point in the maturity of our civilisation in that we have gained this power but still don't really know how to use it. we are aware of our limitations but do not accept them because we fear they are something imposed upon us outside our control. sometimes fascination with evil can be positive in so far as it is asking questions about who we are as a species and whether our "goodness" is an authentic expression of the self. This is critical to understanding what happens if we have more freedom and as a society, it is taboo to say we should have less of it even if its consequences of harmful to ourselves or others.

There is this strange combination of being controlled in a supposedly free society. The majority of things we think are evil involve control but we accept a greater level of control than is really compatible with an authentic expression of freedom. So we don't quite know who we are, where we are going and if we are doing the right thing. The "good guys" are liars and hypocrites and are willing to use "bad" methods to achieve their "good" ends. Its confusing. There is the innocent side to the fascination with evil in that we are curious to know who we are and how people are capable of doing terrible things to one another, but that has to be balanced with the fact that having greater knowledge of evil gives us more power to commit evil. The problem is whether we are so repressed that our "true" selves are in fact sadistic, or whether sadism is just another illusion because we are made bad by the world around us rather than born wanting evil.

WalterTrull said:

What do you suppose our fascination with evil is all about?

To me, it’s logical that we would want to avoid evil, walk the other way. We don’t tend to though. I am in no way denigrating the “good Samaritan” response to the results of evil. I wish there were more of that in me.

However, are we drawn to the appearance of power in evil? A desire to control others?

Is it self-defense? Sort of inuring ourselves by over-exposure? Or maybe making light of it by creating horror stories/films we can laugh about?

I know many people purport dwelling on it to destroy it. Haven’t seen that work much though.

One thing I have noticed: the evil scenario tends to be recursive, building on itself. Eventually it self-destructs, but very painfully.

Do you think the “get thee behind me” or “shake the dust off your feet” approaches offer reasonable defense strategies? Actually getting past evil is kind of tough. There’s an almost hypnotic appeal.

I ponder.

Click to expand...

Are you talking about horror movies?

sayak83 said:

Are you talking about horror movies?

Click to expand...

One of the many aspects.

Lucian Hodoboc said:

Say what?

Click to expand...

You don't believe they're pushing idolatry in vampire movies? Making a mockery of the power of the cross, as if the power is in the physical cross and holding one up to a vampire repels it.

WalterTrull said:

One of the many aspects.

Click to expand...

I mean they are just interesting stories or fantasies. There is no greater fascination with horror than with superhero flicks or fairy tales or romantic comedies. Horror movies and stories and Halloween houses creates fear and adrenaline rush and emotional high in a safe environment, bit like amusement park rides.. and that is the draw.

sayak83 said:

Are you talking about horror movies?

Click to expand...

Speaking of which, this scene may have begun my initial fascination with evil:

Kemosloby said:

You don't believe they're pushing idolatry in vampire movies? Making a mockery of the power of the cross, as if the power is in the physical cross and holding one up to a vampire repels it.

Click to expand...

Doesn't it have to be a silver cross? I thought that was one of the rules. I've also heard they can only be killed by driving a wooden stake through their hearts.

But I'm not even sure that vampires are even all that "evil." Grandpa from The Munsters seemed like a decent chap, albeit a bit mischievous and cantankerous on occasion.

WalterTrull said:

What do you suppose our fascination with evil is all about?

To me, it’s logical that we would want to avoid evil, walk the other way. We don’t tend to though. I am in no way denigrating the “good Samaritan” response to the results of evil. I wish there were more of that in me.

However, are we drawn to the appearance of power in evil? A desire to control others?

Is it self-defense? Sort of inuring ourselves by over-exposure? Or maybe making light of it by creating horror stories/films we can laugh about?

I know many people purport dwelling on it to destroy it. Haven’t seen that work much though.

One thing I have noticed: the evil scenario tends to be recursive, building on itself. Eventually it self-destructs, but very painfully.

Do you think the “get thee behind me” or “shake the dust off your feet” approaches offer reasonable defense strategies? Actually getting past evil is kind of tough. There’s an almost hypnotic appeal.

I ponder.

Click to expand...

Do you really want to know?

WalterTrull said:

What do you suppose our fascination with evil is all about?

To me, it’s logical that we would want to avoid evil, walk the other way. We don’t tend to though. I am in no way denigrating the “good Samaritan” response to the results of evil. I wish there were more of that in me.

However, are we drawn to the appearance of power in evil? A desire to control others?

Is it self-defense? Sort of inuring ourselves by over-exposure? Or maybe making light of it by creating horror stories/films we can laugh about?

I know many people purport dwelling on it to destroy it. Haven’t seen that work much though.

One thing I have noticed: the evil scenario tends to be recursive, building on itself. Eventually it self-destructs, but very painfully.

Do you think the “get thee behind me” or “shake the dust off your feet” approaches offer reasonable defense strategies? Actually getting past evil is kind of tough. There’s an almost hypnotic appeal.

I ponder.

Click to expand...

It's a couple of things. The ability to control and manipulate others gives us a great advantage in the pursuit of our own security and happiness, of course. But having the ability, and being morally able to use it are two separate issues. I think a big part of our fascination with human "evil" has to do with ability to abuse and exploit others as we please, without constraint. It's about the idea of being freed from the constraints of our human collective. And from the constraints of our own capacity for empathizing with others.

Stevicus said:

Doesn't it have to be a silver cross? I thought that was one of the rules. I've also heard they can only be killed by driving a wooden stake through their hearts.

But I'm not even sure that vampires are even all that "evil." Grandpa from The Munsters seemed like a decent chap, albeit a bit mischievous and cantankerous on occasion.

Click to expand...

Exactly. It's not the vampires you need to worry about.

Kemosloby said:

Exactly. It's not the vampires you need to worry about.

Click to expand...

Unless you are a lycan, of course.

Takeshi Obata, the illustrator of the original Death Note manga, is quoted as saying "Is it okay to draw Shinigami (Gods of Death)? When I draw, my hand shakes."

I think evil is really a form of perspective. Some people think that death is an evil thing. Others think it's just the way the world works. The optimists will bury the body and say "well, at least it'll become part of that tree". It's also common to burn bodies. Some cultures apologize for the death of a loved one. Others feed the dead to animals because there's no ground to bury them in. In context, they're all respectful. In depends what culture you ask.

I brought up death meaning to bring up evil.... honestly Death Note illustrates well what "evil" means. It's unclear. For those who don't know, the story of Death Note is about a student in Japan named Light who finds a notebook titled "Death Note" and discovers that he can kill people just by writing their names in the book. After killing off criminals by giving them heart attacks, the police notice and go to their best detective, L, to catch "Kira" (Japanese for Killer). Now the whole reason the notebook was found by Light is because a Shinigami named Ryuk was bored and dropped it on purpose so it could end up in the human world. Light ended up killing not only criminals, but also FBI agents and other non-criminals, sometimes with the help of other people. It's often debated wether he's the good guy because he's trying to rid the world of crime, or if he's the evil person because he kills off so many people. If he's evil, does that mean the Shinigami is evil just by being bored, or did Light's own will the cause of evil? If Light's the good guy, then is L bad? They both want the best for humanity. So really what is evil? It needs to be defined otherwise it's subjective. I think that's part of the allure of the mere idea of "evil".

There's also the thoughts of "I'm doing something bad and getting away with it" and "I'm scared of something and I need to not be scared somehow, but I don't know how to do it." A lot of authors who write realistic dark things, or even just fictional horror, are usually writing out their fears. It appeals to readers because fear is a powerful motivator. The fear of evil is a pretty widespread phobia among humans. It's difficult to say for sure why we're so drawn to evil and fear as well.

Tmac said:

Do you really want to know?

Click to expand...

Well, yeah.

WalterTrull said:

What do you suppose our fascination with evil is all about?

To me, it’s logical that we would want to avoid evil, walk the other way. We don’t tend to though. I am in no way denigrating the “good Samaritan” response to the results of evil. I wish there were more of that in me.

However, are we drawn to the appearance of power in evil? A desire to control others?

Is it self-defense? Sort of inuring ourselves by over-exposure? Or maybe making light of it by creating horror stories/films we can laugh about?

I know many people purport dwelling on it to destroy it. Haven’t seen that work much though.

One thing I have noticed: the evil scenario tends to be recursive, building on itself. Eventually it self-destructs, but very painfully.

Do you think the “get thee behind me” or “shake the dust off your feet” approaches offer reasonable defense strategies? Actually getting past evil is kind of tough. There’s an almost hypnotic appeal.

I ponder.

Click to expand...

There are many evils that common perception deem as good. There are many things that are perceived as evil yet are good.

The first defense strategy is to become aware that evil is within us. Become aware of what that evil is. Gradually go to war and kill the evil within. Baby steps. Deny oneself and die to it.

Laika said:

There is this strange combination of being controlled in a supposedly free society.

Click to expand...

Hmm.. A Deific allusion?

The problem is whether we are so repressed that our "true" selves are in fact sadistic, or whether sadism is just another illusion because we are made bad by the world around us rather than born wanting evil..

Click to expand...

I’m of the “house divided cannot stand” ilk, so don’t think we could be truly sadistic

Also, I’ve never subscribed to the notion that “you are what you eat.” We embody both methods of ingress and egress for consumables after all. The latter exceptionally convenient for those we find noxious.

I have a hunch we’re talking around the “tree of life” allegory . Still haven’t got that quite sorted out (one tree - two trees?). Glimpses here and there but no cigar yet. How’re we gonna deal with that serpent anyway?

WalterTrull said:

Hmm.. A Deific allusion?

Click to expand...

I had to look up "deific" on google. So its not intentional. Maybe a theology student could come up with a way to reconcile predestination and free will, but I don't know.

WalterTrull said:

I’m of the “house divided cannot stand” ilk, so don’t think we could be truly sadistic

Also, I’ve never subscribed to the notion that “you are what you eat.” We embody both methods of ingress and egress for consumables after all. The latter exceptionally convenient for those we find noxious.

I have a hunch we’re talking around the “tree of life” allegory . Still haven’t got that quite sorted out (one tree - two trees?). Glimpses here and there but no cigar yet. How’re we gonna deal with that serpent anyway?

Click to expand...

Thinking about the "tree of life", we may be in a situation of having to deal with eating the fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". As a species, we got pretty ambitious listening to that serpent. Its not clear that rebelling against god/our natural limitations is wrong though, but it comes with some huge risks each time we push the boundaries.

I agree that maybe we aren't all completely sadistic, but that's where it gets problematic. There are certain situations in which it becomes "acceptable" to be cruel and we just go along with it. The Milgram Experiment and Stanford University Prison experiment come to mind and are useful in trying to understand our desire to conform (even to things that we know or feel are wrong). There is much we have yet to learn about who we are in a rational and scientific way, so religions and mythology may have to be our guide for quite a while longer. Curiosity about evil isn't a bad thing if it helps us prevent it.