How are these Great Beings explained?

Dawnofhope · Sep 16, 2017

We are really getting down to business now

CG Didymus said:
This is the 4th beast in Daniel. Who were the other three?

In chapter 7, Daniel has a vision of four beasts coming up out of the sea, and is told that they represent four kingdoms:

A beast like a lion with eagle’s wings;
A beast like a bear, raised up on one side, with three ribs between its teeth;
A beast like a leopard with four wings and four heads;
A fourth beast, with large iron teeth and ten horns.

the Babylonian Empire
the Medo-Persian Empire
the Greco-Roman Empire
the Umayyad Empirehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire

CG Didymus said:
Did this beast "devour" the whole earth?

The known biblical world...yes.

CG Didymus said:
Who are the 10 kings that arise, and who is the king that arises after them and subdues 3 of the kings?

According to Abdu'l-Baha 'the ten horns mean the names of the Umayyad rulers—that is, without repetition, there were ten names of rulers, meaning ten names of commanders and chiefs—the first is Abú Súfyán and the last Marván—but several of them bear the same name. So there are two Muáviyá, three Yazíd, two Valíd, and two Marván; but if the names were counted without repetition there would be ten. The Umayyads, of whom the first was Abú Súfyán, Amír of Mecca and chief of the dynasty of the Umayyads, and the last was Marván, destroyed the third part of the holy and saintly people of the lineage of Muḥammad who were like the stars of heaven.'

The king that arises after them and subdues 3 of the kings?

I don't know. Possibly Marvan II

Umayyad Caliphate - Wikipedia

Note the 3 short lived kings before his rule.

Vinayaka · Sep 16, 2017

CG Didymus said:
The best thing about this thread has been you and Carlita. With my Bible questions, though, you know the routine... They believe they have the truth, so somehow, someway, they are always going to find a way to spin a question to fit into their interpretation. So I don't believe there will ever be religious unity, not if only one religion, the Baha'i Faith, has the true interpretation of all the other religions.

Hope to see you on another thread. CG

You've been a breath of fresh air here too, confirming my suspicions that if they got it wrong about my faith, that they probably got it wrong about a lot of stuff.

Vinayaka · Sep 16, 2017

adrian009 said:
Stay or go, once again its been really helpful to have had you here to give the Baha'is a reality check as far as Hinduism is concerned.

It's interesting to me how different people are. Some folks are open to listening, and others just dig their heels in more. That has been my experience here.

Dawnofhope · Sep 16, 2017

Vinayaka said:
It's interesting to me how different people are. Some folks are open to listening, and others just dig their heels in more. That has been my experience here.

That is human nature for sure. Sometimes we want simple answers. The Baha'is here, myself included assumed that because Buddha, Christ, Moses, Muhammad, and Zoroaster founded religions that we can identify by name, then the same must be true for Krishna. It is not, plain and simple.

Vinayaka · Sep 16, 2017

adrian009 said:
That is human nature for sure. Sometimes we want simple answers. The Baha'is here, myself included assumed that because Buddha, Christ, Moses, Muhammad, and Zoroaster founded religions that we can identify by name, then the same must be true for Krishna. It is not, plain and simple.

Unfortunately, one person (you) coming to believe that won't change the Baha'i' teaching one iota. The misinformation will continue to be spread. Still, one is better than zero.

loverofhumanity · Sep 16, 2017

CG Didymus said:
First off: Show me quotes to show that The Bab was known as the Lamb, because the Lamb is the main character in Revelation. It says the "Lamb is Lord of Lords and King of Kings". Why would that be The Bab and not Baha'u'llah? But why not Jesus?

Everyone worships the Lamb. No one is worthy to break the seals except the Lamb. Chapter 6:17 has the Great Day of wrath of Him on the throne and the Lamb. The Lamb has a book of life. The Lamb is on Mt Zion with 144,000. In Revelation 12:17 it mentions Jesus by name:

Revelation 12:15-17New International Version (NIV)
15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

There are so many problems with the Woes being Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. In Revelation 9:12 the first Woe ends. All the 1260 days, forty two months and 31/2 days all happens after that. Why would they refer to the Woe that already ended? But biggest stretch is making the number 666 a date. How do Baha'is come up with that again?

The year 666AD was the beginning of militant Islam.

Revelation Christ 5 talks about Two Who are worthy to unseal the Book.

1. The Lion of the tribe of Judah
2. The Ram or Lamb that was slain (not crucified) so it's not speaking about Christ here.

Baha'u'llah was descended through the father of David, Jesse so He was the root of David and this is not something He could have appointed ted Himself to as He was a descendant.

Dawnofhope · Sep 16, 2017

I've done some research and provided some adapted answers from a work called 'Apocalypse unsealed'

CG Didymus said:
Talking about this beast:

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Lets look at verse 1
'And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.'

The sand of the sea is the peoples and nations that comprised the land of the beast, the Bani-Umayyad dynasty. The seven heads are the seven dominions,; the ten horns are the ten names of rulers I have already provided. The beast has on his heads the name of blasphemy: The Caliph!

"The Caliph" means literally "The Successor" and refers to the successorship to Muhammad. The title of Caliph was blasphemously usurped by the Bani-Umayyad. The office combined both the temporal and "spiritual" authority in early Islam.

Banu Umayya - Wikipedia

'And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.'

The terms leopard, bear, and lion refer to the prophecy in Daniel, Chapter 7. In that prophecy the leopard represents the Empire of Alexander the great; the bear represents the Empire of Media-Persia; the lion represents the Empire of Babylonia. The Bani-Ummayad dynasty ruled an Empire reminiscent of the Empire of Alexander (the leopard) in its extent and prosperity. The strength (feet) of the beast was situated in Media-Persia (the bear), but it had its throne (mouth) within the confines of ancient Babylonia (the lion).

'And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was headed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?'

The Bani-Umayya were overthrown by the 'Abbasids in 749 AD. The destruction of the Bani-Umayya seemed total. However, one of the Bani-Umayya, 'Abd al-Rahman, known as "The Falcon of the Quraysh," managed to escape to Andalusia (Spain) where he set up another Umayyad dynasty that lasted for 300 years. Thus Andalusia was the wounded head that healed.

CG Didymus said:
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was give him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Bani-Umayya were noted for their hypocrisy, economic and social injustice, and their luxurious lives dedicated to the pleasures of the flesh. Although the Bani-Umayya were overthrown by the 'Abbasids in 749 AD, the empire founded by the Bani-Umayya persisted under the 'Abbasids and later under the Turks for the entire Dispensation of Muhammad, 1260 years (42 months).

The Bani-Umayya suppressed the descendants of Muhammad and the Imams (saints) and dominated a vast assemblage of peoples covering most of the civilized world known to the resident of the Middle East.

CG Didymus said:
This beast was had power for 42 months, or Baha'i time, 1260 years. But, who is the dragon that gives power to this beast?

The Dragaon and the beast are synonymous.

CG Didymus said:
Who is the head that was wounded to death and was healed?

If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

In these verses John learns the Law of Divine retribution that will cause the destruction of the beast. Because of their iniquity, the Bani-Umayya decayed in spirituality and power and eventually met the same fate that they had meted out to others. Except for 'Abd al-Rahman, the Bani-Umayya were hunted down and destroyed. Even the corpses of the dead Bani-Umayya Caliphs, except for the pious 'Umar II, were exhumed and desecrated.

CG Didymus said:
And, since this is before The Bab, who is the Lamb and what is the Lamb's book of life?

The "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" symbolizes the principle of Sacrifice. In the Baha'i Dispensation, the names of the Book of Life are
written by the Center of the Covenant, 'Abdu'l-Baha, the "Most Great Branch"

CG Didymus said:
Then another beast?

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and the which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by the sword, and did live.

The second beast was the 'Abbasid dynasty. The 'Abbasid dynasty came to power by conquest on the ruins (earth) of the Bani-Umayyad Empire. Its rulers gradually became Turkish beginning about 840 AD. The secon beast* had two names (horns) of leadership "The Caliph" and "The Sultan."
At its apex, the second beast exercised all the power of the Bani-Umayya and revived the dying Empire that had been "mortally wounded" yet had lived on in Spain. Again the nations of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East admired the Muslim State. The second beast also displayed remarkable technical and scientific skills. Very early they learned the use of gunpowder and Greek fire. Strange devices were used in war, such as burning javelins and globes that were propelled over long distances.

CG Didymus said:
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The second beast, the 'Abbasid dynsaty, was able to revive the image of the first beast, the Bani-Umayyad Empire, so that it seemed to be alive again. The second beast enforced the new regime with great severity, ruthlessly murdering even those who had helped the 'Abbasids to gain power.

The marks or stigmata were: "right hand"(The right hand is the working hand)* the land and business tax (kharaj), and "forehead"--the head tax (jizya) paid by non-Muslims, marking them as inferior and symbolizing in concrete form their subjection to the Muslim State. Many non-Muslims fled to avoid these taxes. Trading was forbidden unless one had paid the tax (had the mark) or was "muslim" (name of the beast), or was a member of the ruling class (number of his name).

CG Didymus said:
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

666, where we left off.

You have asked a zillion questions. I'll answer some more when I have the time.

Unveiled Artist · Sep 16, 2017

adrian009 said:
I must offer my sincere appreciation for both you and @Vinayaka being part of this thread and the interesting conversations over the last 6 months. I think its knocked a few edges off me, and hopefully enbaled me to be a better participant on RF overall. Maybe the most important aspect is having my own voice rather than over reliance on quoting scripture.

Six months, sheesh. Time goes by fast. But, yeah, it does take some time to see the same topic in different perspectives. I honestly think some people-I'm around christians-feel religion is an exclusion to the "seeing another person's perspective" rule. If anything, to have better relations with people, it would be necessary to see other people's religious views without feeling threatened by them opposing your [people] own.

adrian009 said:
Any conversation needs to be based on mutual respect, courtesy, and an interst in each others points of view IMHO. It would be fair to say that talkng about Hinduism, Buddhism, and sexual orientation has taken me out of my comfort zone. No doubt having to consider and debate Baha'i scripture hasn't been the easiest for you either, but you have learned a lot. I'd like to think I have too, but i'm a slow learner...

Haha. I bet sexual orientation was hard for you. I commend you. Yes, debating Bahai scripture is hard. Sometimes I ask if we can debate our own scriptures. Be our own devil's advocate. I know we don't our scriptures as false, but say I pretend that the Dhamma would decay. How could I learn from the idea there is no Dhamma without god to create a reversion for this time period. It is hard but not impossible. A lot of brain gymnastics unless that person's religions dictates they can't do this for one reason or another.

Don't worry about the slow learn part. I recently to a neuropsych test and found out the reason I can't remember stuff is not because the information can't stay in storage. It's the encoding. My brain has a slow time deciphering information so it can be stored. I don't know how that works with reading but verbally, yeah. So, when I get older, I don't know where I'd be in that department.

adrian009 said:
Then that is a good thing. I think you and @Vinayaka are lot more experienced conversing in the medium of RF and I would hope that has rubbed off on us Baha'is.

<<--should find something better to do with her time. When I first came here, one member said after awhile I'd learn how to shorten my post (it was a sarcastic remark). I'm still learning.

adrian009 said:
Yeah, that's been one of a number of interesting topics we've covered. Its a very abstract concept and we have needed to considered what that means here one on one.

Exactly. It is actually one of the hearts of the conversation. Our understanding of unity and diversity is different. I mean, Vinakaya says that unity isn't part of his belief. I never heard of unity as described by Bahai in Buddhism. I guess you can say there is two types of unity. Unity among like believers-the Sangha and unity among all people who express compassion for others regardless the religion. In both, diversity isn't an issue unless, in my case, I don't speak a word of Vietnamese to conversate with any of the nearby temple master's outside of the one I was initiated in. I was lucky the master teacher spoke English.

adrian009 said:
Definitely. If we can't take the time to read and consider what each other has to say then what are we about?

adrian009 said:
Part of being on RF is learning to hear what others say, and understand why they believe what they do, rather than reacting and feeling a need to disprove the other's POV.

Basically. I think if this was placed in question and answer or interfaith, maybe, people would be prompted to learn rather than debate. By definition, debate isn't one-sided.

adrian009 said:
Busy life, and I do wonder if I could have learnt more about Hinduism and Buddhism over the past few months...

Missed opportunity? Hmm....

Only a few of you asked us much about it. I did ask Vinakaya about Hinduism and the basic consensus is you have to practice it to know. So if that's the response to me, than I don't know how much you'd learn unless he's willing to share more than surface level understanding of Hinduism so others can understand it beyond looking on the internet and more important relying on one research about in incarnation to understand Hinduism as a whole. As for Buddhism, I only know Nichiren Buddhism fully. Zen Vietnamese that is a whole new animal. I'm familiar with Zen but not the cultural differences in how Buddhism is practiced in each Sangha. Though if you want to learn about Nichiren Buddhism, I'm all for it. It's a Tentai school Mahayana sect and focus on worship and honoring of the Dhamma first before The Buddha and Sangha. Different approach to the same teaching. Even Buddhist have debates over whether Nichiren Budhism is "real" buddhism.

adrian009 said:
I think what unites us and helps us have compassion for each other is our shared humanity. If religion becomes a barrier rather than something thats bringing us closer, then letting it all go for a while seems like a good idea. Its not a symbolic thing as you say. We are either connected or we are not, and if we are it is something we experience.

Exactly.

adrian009 said:
I think the next step is to go to a Baha'i temple or devotional meeting and just be with the Baha'is as you would anyone else. We're all just people after all.

I probably would one day. I've been to a Mosque. a Hindu temple, and Hall. Some of my closer counterparts thinks I'm religion hoping and searching. I just love religion.

adrian009 said:
Maybe we should skype and talk rather than type and think? Hmmmm....scarey thought !?

I seriously would Skype but I have no clue how to and don't care for video cam talk regardless. I can, though, let you know my experiences from visiting the Bahai temple if this thread is still alive. haha.[/QUOTE]

CG Didymus · Sep 16, 2017

Carlita said:
Eh, since you mentioned my name, I thought I'd reply. I kinda wish I knew more scripture because I'm an experience-truth person; and, if anyone cannot trust their experiences and opinions without reference to sacred scripture, it makes it hard to delve deeper into a conversation and want to if both parties aren't interested in learning from both views-both experience and scripture.

So, Vinakaya would have to be interested in learning sacred scripture as well as Bahai (all not just two of you) would have to ask about Vinakaya's views and both want to. It won't get anywhere without knowledge of knew material rather than rehashing old.

With me, I am willing and can offer my experience in more than enough words. I'd be happy to read Bahai, Quran, and Biblical scriptures if I'm able to not only learn from Bahai point of view but from Bahai, hope my experiences and interpretations from these scriptures are respected just the same as they want me to respect their scriptures.

It is hard to have a conversation without knowledge of each other's foundation of learning.

Second, I've seen progress in one Bahai in stepping out of his own comfort zone or how he puts it, getting through that thick shell. It takes time and patience but if Bahai agrees that all scriptures point to the same source, all people are unity, and diversity is respected, it would make sense to want to learn from your own community.

Another note that hinders conversation: the definition of diversity and unity. If going by strict definition-diversity is differences. Unity is integration of more than two separate things into one or working together with the same goal and foundation.

That is impossible with all of the revealed religions. If the source of these religious views are only sacred text and the members of these religions especially non-book religions are not taken into account as authority, then conversation about the text and what they really talk about not seen through one lens would be nil if understanding is desired.

Reading and taking time to reply is a hinder with both parties because if both people took time and effort to read each other's posts and reply by posting and rephrasing (not copy-qouting) each other's posts, then we know the other person has at least skimmed over the post, scripture, or source enough to talk more about it-not just Bahai source but Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist (if there is such a thing ), and so forth.

For example, I quoted many of times that the Dhamma does not decay only the body-the scripture will sometime. Yet, I'm told (not quoted) many times and again the Dhamma will decay and a new Dhamma replaces it that shows the true teachings of The Buddha with whom leads all people to god as a manifestation.

No one wants to know why what they believe is false to the person who believes it only true to their own interpretation.

On the other side, only two (and sometimes three with you) have questioned us about our opinion, two about our religion, and one bout our interpretation of sides in both views that relate to the debate topic at hand.

It is very hard to conversate if topics are directly skipped. It's not unintentional. Sometimes the posts are two liners and they are important yet they have time to post from the longer ones but not address actual questions from the shorter posts. Frustrates the mess out of me.

So, I guess I'd like to move on. I am trying to find ways to clear my mind as that's what Buddhist teach-about the mind. The mind brings out compassion-it is not symbolic. It is a literal experience. So, pretty much its a foregone conclusions.

Christians either ignore the conversation or push their conversion-point. I've never been to a Bahai temple so I'm hoping the thread here doesn't represent the overall thought pattern of most Bahai in the temple. If I do visit, hopefully it would give me insight on what some people here think as they do since most of the time I can't get confirmation and clarification on how they think from how I understand things rather than trying to figure it out through Bahai formulas.

Carlita, it's been a pleasure. This thread has to be one of the longest on-going threads. A lot of going round in circles, but it's been very informative. The Baha'is here are very knowledgeable about the Baha'i writings. When I was involved with the Baha'is in the 70's, I didn't care that much about reading their stuff. Baha'u'llah and Shoghi Effendi's works were very tedious to read. Abdu'l Baha's I like the best. But now I question all of it. And, unfortunately, the answers provided by the Baha'is made it worse.

But still, in spite of everything, I do believe that anybody from any religion can be a great spiritual person. And that is believing their religion just the way it is. Whether it's praising and loving Jesus as God, or sitting quietly meditating as a Hindu or Buddhist, or believing Baha'u'llah is the promised one of all religions and believing that he has the answers to bring peace and unity to the world. But can they all get along and respect each other without condemning the others beliefs, and thinking theirs is somehow superior.

Baha'is are so close, but, from what I've heard on this thread, they do think they are the only true religion. They have shown that they feel all the other religions have lost the "true" "original" teachings. They have splinters into different factions with many varying beliefs. So no matter how nice they put it, they don't believe the people in other religions have the truth. So the big question is... do they have the Truth? For me they are so close, but in the little details of fulfilling prophecy, and on some of the laws, and still having people drop out and try to start new sects of Baha'i, they aren't perfect. They could easily slip into just being another one of the many religions.

Anyway, thanks again Carlita for all your time and effort on this thread.

CG Didymus · Sep 16, 2017

adrian009 said:
I've done some research and provided some adapted answers from a work called 'Apocalypse unsealed'

Lets look at verse 1
'And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.'

The sand of the sea is the peoples and nations that comprised the land of the beast, the Bani-Umayyad dynasty. The seven heads are the seven dominions,; the ten horns are the ten names of rulers I have already provided. The beast has on his heads the name of blasphemy: The Caliph!

"The Caliph" means literally "The Successor" and refers to the successorship to Muhammad. The title of Caliph was blasphemously usurped by the Bani-Umayyad. The office combined both the temporal and "spiritual" authority in early Islam.

Banu Umayya - Wikipedia

'And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.'

The terms leopard, bear, and lion refer to the prophecy in Daniel, Chapter 7. In that prophecy the leopard represents the Empire of Alexander the great; the bear represents the Empire of Media-Persia; the lion represents the Empire of Babylonia. The Bani-Ummayad dynasty ruled an Empire reminiscent of the Empire of Alexander (the leopard) in its extent and prosperity. The strength (feet) of the beast was situated in Media-Persia (the bear), but it had its throne (mouth) within the confines of ancient Babylonia (the lion).

'And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was headed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?'

The Bani-Umayya were overthrown by the 'Abbasids in 749 AD. The destruction of the Bani-Umayya seemed total. However, one of the Bani-Umayya, 'Abd al-Rahman, known as "The Falcon of the Quraysh," managed to escape to Andalusia (Spain) where he set up another Umayyad dynasty that lasted for 300 years. Thus Andalusia was the wounded head that healed.

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was give him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Bani-Umayya were noted for their hypocrisy, economic and social injustice, and their luxurious lives dedicated to the pleasures of the flesh. Although the Bani-Umayya were overthrown by the 'Abbasids in 749 AD, the empire founded by the Bani-Umayya persisted under the 'Abbasids and later under the Turks for the entire Dispensation of Muhammad, 1260 years (42 months).

The Bani-Umayya suppressed the descendants of Muhammad and the Imams (saints) and dominated a vast assemblage of peoples covering most of the civilized world known to the resident of the Middle East.

The Dragaon and the beast are synonymous.

If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

In these verses John learns the Law of Divine retribution that will cause the destruction of the beast. Because of their iniquity, the Bani-Umayya decayed in spirituality and power and eventually met the same fate that they had meted out to others. Except for 'Abd al-Rahman, the Bani-Umayya were hunted down and destroyed. Even the corpses of the dead Bani-Umayya Caliphs, except for the pious 'Umar II, were exhumed and desecrated.

The "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" symbolizes the principle of Sacrifice. In the Baha'i Dispensation, the names of the Book of Life are
written by the Center of the Covenant, 'Abdu'l-Baha, the "Most Great Branch"

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and the which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by the sword, and did live.

The second beast was the 'Abbasid dynasty. The 'Abbasid dynasty came to power by conquest on the ruins (earth) of the Bani-Umayyad Empire. Its rulers gradually became Turkish beginning about 840 AD. The secon beast* had two names (horns) of leadership "The Caliph" and "The Sultan."
At its apex, the second beast exercised all the power of the Bani-Umayya and revived the dying Empire that had been "mortally wounded" yet had lived on in Spain. Again the nations of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East admired the Muslim State. The second beast also displayed remarkable technical and scientific skills. Very early they learned the use of gunpowder and Greek fire. Strange devices were used in war, such as burning javelins and globes that were propelled over long distances.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The second beast, the 'Abbasid dynsaty, was able to revive the image of the first beast, the Bani-Umayyad Empire, so that it seemed to be alive again. The second beast enforced the new regime with great severity, ruthlessly murdering even those who had helped the 'Abbasids to gain power.

The marks or stigmata were: "right hand"(The right hand is the working hand)* the land and business tax (kharaj), and "forehead"--the head tax (jizya) paid by non-Muslims, marking them as inferior and symbolizing in concrete form their subjection to the Muslim State. Many non-Muslims fled to avoid these taxes. Trading was forbidden unless one had paid the tax (had the mark) or was "muslim" (name of the beast), or was a member of the ruling class (number of his name).

666, where we left off.

You have asked a zillion questions. I'll answer some more when I have the time.

Holy moly! It's Saturday, sunny, and I'm heading out. I'll read this tonight. I thought this thread was fizzling out, so I went looking for other threads to throw my two cents into, and lo and behold their you were! The Holy Spirit one and the Gospel one? How do you have time? And if you say you've been doing your medical work, teaching the Baha'i Faith in your community and playing guitar, I will be amazed. How long are the days in New Zealand?

InvestigateTruth · Sep 16, 2017

CG Didymus said:
I don't get your dates yet. "The Hijri year or era is the era used in the Islamic lunar calendar, which begins its count from the Islamic New Year in 622 AD."

So if I add 1260 to 622 I get 1882?

Yes, if you add 1260 lunar years to 622, you get 1844.

According to history, some centuries after Christ, Jews became scattered and captives in various countries, until our time, when they already returned to the Land of Israel.

The scathering and returning of Israelites were also prophecied in Scriptures. For example:

"Therefore say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.'. Ezekiel 11:17

"I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. …….I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me" Jerm 32:37-40

"This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: 'The LORD bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain…..The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.” Jerm. 31:23-31

we see a match between Biblical Prophecies regarding scattering and returning.

Now the question is, when and why exactly did the process of returning begin?

We need to search in history to find answer!

From Wikipedia , the return was initiated in year 1844, when the Ottoman Empire signed an edict of tolerance which:
“….infers religious tolerance through ending executions for apostasy for Jews that seemed to convert making their social situation easier while actually keeping their personal and group identity in their Judaic religion. Jerusalem has had the largest Jewish population in Palestine in recent centuries since about 1844…”

Edict of Toleration 1844 - Wikipedia

We also see that, the Bible also prophecied that the Return will be when a New Covenant is established from God.

From Histrorical point of View, the Bab made a new covenant in year 1844.

So far this was one part of the story.

Now lets look at another part, from Christian Testament Prophecies from chapter of Revelation:

“I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. But exclude the outer court do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months”. Revelation 11:1-2

So, according to this prophecy, the holy city, which is Jerusalem will be given to Gentiles according to the Will of God. The Gentiles are basically the non Jews, according to many Bible scholars.

Now there is also a match in the history for this.

From Wikipedia:

“The Islamization of Jerusalem began in the first year A.H. (623 CE), when Muslims were instructed to face the city while performing their daily prostrations and, according to Muslim religious tradition, Muhammad's night journey and ascension to heaven took place”

Jerusalem - Wikipedia

So, the first year in Islamic Calendar is a beginning of period that the Holy city was given to Arabs in a Religious Sense.

But for how long was it given to them? The Bible says 42 months.

Lets see if history and religion can match here.
42 months is 1260 days, and in Bible, each prophetic day is 1 year.

That would be 1260 years.

Now historically, the Bab declared that Islam period has ended and He has a new covenant. He made this declaration precisely 1260 years after the first year of Islamization of Holy Land .

It was precisely in the same year, that Also the Edict of tolerance was signed and the Jews begin to return to holy land.

Just some historical facts.

InvestigateTruth · Sep 16, 2017

Vinayaka said:
...But I have a question. What great civilisations did your manifestations cause. Which great civilisations did the last three especially cause?

....

I think I replied to this. It was in my post before this one for you.

Dawnofhope · Sep 16, 2017

CG Didymus said:
Holy moly! It's Saturday, sunny, and I'm heading out. I'll read this tonight. I thought this thread was fizzling out, so I went looking for other threads to throw my two cents into, and lo and behold their you were! The Holy Spirit one and the Gospel one? How do you have time? And if you say you've been doing your medical work, teaching the Baha'i Faith in your community and playing guitar, I will be amazed. How long are the days in New Zealand?

There is this saying that necessity is the mother of invention. I have been wanting to unravel the apocalyptic scriptures for a while so your questions have motivated me to do that. I have been wanting to better understand Islam too, so regardless of your assessment of the answers, this has been something I need to do, to better my understanding. The other aspect is, that if the Baha'i Faith is true, then only the Baha'is can interpret the Apocalypse and explain it to others. That's an incomprehensible responsibility. When we go to heaven and face God, you will be asked why you didn't accept Baha'u'llah. Part of your response will be, the Baha'is didn't provide a satisfactory explanation. Then God will turn to me, and ask why I didn't do what was within my capacity to do.

I started those two Christian thread last week, once again working on improving my knowledge, advancing the frontiers of learning. On the topic of learning, when I first came on RF I noticed @InvestigateTruth posting prophetic proofs from an Islamic perspective. I've never seen anything like it. So while I wax and wane in my efforts to explain to you why Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah are all the return of Christ from biblical scripture, why not ask my off-sider how the Baha'i Faith fulfils prophecy in the Quran, Hadiths and Islamic traditions.

Vinayaka · Sep 16, 2017

InvestigateTruth said:
I think I replied to this. It was in my post before this one for you.

If you did, I certainly couldn't find it. But that's been common. So I'll repeat it. You had stated how each of the 'manifestations' had all started great civilisations, and I had asked which great civilisation the Bab had started, because I haven't seen any mentioned in history books.

On another note, as per my discussions with Adrian, have you now conceded (this is in the debate forum) that Krishna and Hinduism doesn't really fit into the Baha'i' teachings the way the Abrahamic ones do, or are you maintaining that you're right about that, that Krishna is the founder of Hinduism?

Dawnofhope · Sep 16, 2017

Vinayaka said:
Unfortunately, one person (you) coming to believe that won't change the Baha'i' teaching one iota. The misinformation will continue to be spread. Still, one is better than zero.

I think you are being a little tough on the Baha'is here. @InvestigateTruth and @loverofhumanity will both agree that Krishna is not the founder of Hinduism, I'm sure. We have listened and learnt, slow and painful as its been for all concerned.

Dawnofhope · Sep 16, 2017

Vinayaka said:
If you did, I certainly couldn't find it. But that's been common. So I'll repeat it. You had stated how each of the 'manifestations' had all started great civilisations, and I had asked which great civilisation the Bab had started, because I haven't seen any mentioned in history books.

I think you asked that question about a week or so ago, so my apologies if I didn't get around to answering it. I think you have actually answered the question very well yourself, in that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the twin manifestations that the Baha'is believe will the foundation of a world civilisation in the future.

Vinayaka · Sep 16, 2017

adrian009 said:
I think you are being a little tough on the Baha'is here. @InvestigateTruth and @loverofhumanity will both agree that Krishna is not the founder of Hinduism, I'm sure. We have listened and learnt, slow and painful as its been for all concerned.

I disagree. It's been a real uphill battle. Still is. LH's shift has been heartening. You were half way there in the beginning, lol.

But LH hasn't been around much lately either. He starts the thread, one of the longest serious threads on these forums, and then he disappears? Not even a defiant 'I shall return!"

Vinayaka · Sep 16, 2017

adrian009 said:
I think you asked that question about a week or so ago, so my apologies if I didn't get around to answering it. I think you have actually answered the question very well yourself, in that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the twin manifestations that the Baha'is believe will the foundation of a world civilisation in the future.

Yes, now I remember, but in reality future predictions have no basis. Baha'is can say anything they want to. Rational people don't treat the future like history at all.

The very idea of manifestations starting great civilisations has many fallacies. Several of them didn't, not just those last two, but some of the others. In some places Noah is listed. What civilisation did he found? How do the Baha'i' explain all the other civilisations, like the Greeks, the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Indus Valley, etc."?

RoaringSilence · Sep 16, 2017

All this prophecies are for what ? what purpose ? why is the creator interested in some real estate issues of this 3rd rock from the sun?
Is the Abrahamic god "a jealous god" ?

CG Didymus · Sep 16, 2017

adrian009 said:
...I do wonder if I could have learnt more about Hinduism and Buddhism over the past few months...

This is a problem with most people in most religions, especially those raised in a religion. They are taught that theirs is the truth and all the others are false, so the person has an ingrained negative attitude about the other religions. But the other thing, that could be more likely for a Baha'i, is to think that since the religion is no longer relevant, why bother studying too deeply into it.

How are these Great Beings explained?

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